I have problems with this two skills. Wich things can you do wich one and not with the another?

Also, I am thinking to change trade Technomat on a Crafting skill, because the PCs have a skill to craft weapons and armour, but not a skill to craft electronics and gadgets.

I would like to know your thinks.

Hi there 23.

There was a discussion of this a couple of months ago. Check out the link.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=70&efcid=3&efidt=492623&efpag=0#493000

A wide range of opinions but worth a look if this is vexing you.

pg. 244 of Inquisitor's Handbook on Trade (Technomat):

" T he Trade (Technomat) skill differs from most other Trade Skills in that it represents the care and maintenance of items rather than their creation. However, as the mysteries of creation for many items from teh Golden Age of Technology have been forever lost, this Skill has great value throughout the Imperium.

B ecause of this technological regression, technomats may have no actual knowledge of why their maintenance rituals are effective, but simply know that they are. The application of holy oils and unguents, ritual sequiences involving chants and prayers, or contact with certain runes on these sacred devices has placated their machine-spirits and kept them functional for generations. Knowledge of these rites is all that is required, not understanding of their underlying purpose.

T he Skill may also be used to create effective rituals for newly discovered items, based upon the vast knowledge of customs for similar devices. Thus, if the Acolytes discover an ancient cogitator, their technomat might attempt to placate its machine-spirit with rituals known for similar machines."

In regards to Tech-Use's functionality in repair it seems that Trade (Technomat) is probably the superior in that regard (in exchange for a narrowing of focus). In light of this explanation I would say that Trade (Technomat) is required to work on fixing Dark Age tech. Maybe also could be used in a similar fashion to how Medicae assists with Chem-Use:

"Make a Difficult (-10) Trade (Technomat) test to bring to bear your broad base of repair methods. On success, you gain a +5 bonus to the Tech-Use test that involves repair/maintenance of current Imperium tech."

Could also be house-ruled to be able to puzzle out Xenos tech as well if one were to have Forbidden Knowledge (Xenos) skill and a fully (no penalty) or partially (varying penalty on state of disrepair) working piece of subject matter.

For creating and modifying weapons and armour, the Trade (Armourer) is the way to go. And perhaps Trade (Smith) for the actual forging and metalworking if you're doing more than assembling bits and pieces (forging Wards or psy-circuitry into a blade, for example). As to why you need Strength to make a plasma-gun, I dunno. I'd allow different characteristics to be used, depending on circumstance.

Then there's Common Lore (Tech): An understanding of simple litanies and rituals to sooth and appease machine spirits

Sounds a bit like Teknomat-light, eh?

The other Lore skills seem more oriented on the organization of the tech-priests, and not so much on technology itself:

Forbidden Lore (Adeptus Mechanicus): An understanding of the followers of the Machine God, including such things as their observances, common beliefs and core philosophies.

Common Lore (Machine Cult) A general understanding of the symbols and practices of the Mechanicus, as well as such things as formal greetings and identifying rankings.

All in all, I'm still confused. And thus we end up using Tech-use for everything, which is lame.

So I read through all the skill descriptions in the core book and the expanded descriptions in the Inquisitors handbook. Then I re-read the previous thread linked to above , and then the even older one linked to from that one.

There were some excellent posts in those threads, with examples and rationalizations.

I will try to sum up some "conclusions" from this exercise.

1. Common Lore (Tech) lets you know which litany or ritual is appropriate to common situations. It does not require any technical understanding, nor does it provide any benefits when dealing with uncommon situations such as interacting with an ancient archeotech cogiator device discovered on a derelict hulk. This is the application of Rite and Rote learning to operate tech, and is the way the great masses of low ranking tech-priests operate. As such it is a skill of practical application. The skill is also available to other classes with a knack for learning and knowledge, like Adepts and Psykers.
   
2. Common Lore (Machine Cult) is knowledge about the overt elements of the Cult Mechanicus. It covers such things as "the symbols and practices of the Mechanicus, as well as such things as formal greetings and identifying ranks". It has no practical application when it comes to operating or maintaining tech, but will prevent you from making a fool out of yourself when dealing with Tech priests.
   
3. The Forbidden Lore (Adeptus Mechanicus) has no practical application. It does not cover secret knowledge of plasma drives or the truth about the nature and existence of Machine Spirits. What it does cover is " An understanding of the followers of the Machine God, including such things as their observances, common beliefs and core philosophies ."
   
   It might be useful when interacting with Tech priests, trying to understand their motives and/or actions, and perhaps to evaluate whether or not something is orthodox or not. It does not help with obscure tests to work ancient cogitators, but it might help trying to decide whether a suggested repair/modification would be acceptable to the Mechanicus or not.
   
4. The Forbidden Lore (Archeotech) might help with the test to operate the ancient cogitator, but is once again a skill with little practical application. It will not allow you to recreate ancient las-pistols of incredible power, or allow "creative" designs to improve your plasmagun. "No Acolyte, however skilled, can create or repair weaponry from the Age of Technology." (IH, p 240)
   
5. Building or modifying weapons, gear and other tech is covered by Trade skills. Tech Use alone does not let you do this. Attaching weapon upgrades is covered by the Trade (Armourer) skill (Core book, p141). Making a primitive plate armour is covered by Trade (Smith) (IH, p243), while the usage of less primitive elements would require Trade (Armourer). To create structural component, or armour plating for a vehicle, Trade (wright) is also needed. Neither of these skills will let you invent anti-grav plating or teleporters, you will need blueprints (preferably based on an STC) or you will be stuck to making rather primitive things.
   
6. The Trade (Technomat) skill will not let you build things, but it will let you repair and / or maintain them. It does not indicate an understanding of the tech they work with, but they do know to spot a faulty flux-capacitor and to replace it. Should the flux-capacitor require extensive repairs after the unfortunate application of an evsicerator or Choppa, and they have no spare part to replace it with, they might be stumped. It will also let you operate ancient machinery, even if nobody knows how they work: " The Skill may also be used to create effective rituals for newly discovered items, based upon the vast knowledge of customs for similar devices. Thus, if the Acolytes discover an ancient cogitator, their technomat might attempt to placate its machine-spirit with rituals known for similar machines ." (IH, p 244)
   
7. Tech use would let you repair the Flux Capacitor, however this would be a very hard test unless you have the relevant blue-prints. It is more commonly used to repair and operate mechanical and electronic items, and represents your ability to tinker and "figure things out" like a proper grease-monkey and geek. Designing a replacement for the Flux Capacitor based on available material would be beyond the scope of this skill. Indeed, it appears to fall outside of all the skills described in the book. It seems to just be "not done".
   
8. Logic is the theoretical counterpart to tech-use, and represents understanding of mathematical and mechanical principles. For Tech-priests it also covers Mathemechanica Rituals, granting bonus to certain Tech-use applications.

I've probably missed some points, and got others wrong, but now I need a coffee

Darth Smeg said:

Generally, CL (Tech) and CL (Machine Cult) is a broad understanding of the facade the Adeptus Mechanicus presents to outsiders, uses in indoctrination of the laymen, and what is taught to initiates of the topmost mysteries of the Adeptus Mechanicus under mainstream training regimes (to be split down the line however the GM and player feels is appropriate, not all Tech-Priests have both or either skills). There is overlap in some areas but each still have their own unique niche to deny being totally subsumed into other skills (like Tech-Use). For the most part, Common Lore is something you experience rather that learn out of a book primarily (like Scholastic) but not so much buried in esoterica or containing sanity/soul-shattering secrets (like Forbidden Lore).

Forbidden Knowledge in Adeptus Mechanicus is like Forbidden Knowledge in the Inquisition, you have a knowledge of the deeper mysteries of the priesthood, the factions at play within the Adepta, possibly the intentions of notable (Arch)Magi, and maybe a few of the skeletons/necrons in their closet.

On further (re)reading, of Trade (Technomat)....it doesn't let you repair anything actually. It's for operating and maintaining continuous functionality but when The Macguffin needs more than a change of power/oils/unguents then you're SoL personally if you don't have Tech-Use (or it's beyond the range of Tech-Use if it isn't Imperium) outside of extenuating circumstances. Trade (Technomat) is a menial skill primarily but known to Tech-Priests that are required to maintain machine-saints that cannot be manufactured whole or to acquire repair components. Essentially we have the short/long-term operational (usage) and observational capacities (puzzling out item functions) of Tech-Use met and extended horizontally (Xenos) and vertically (esoteric Dark Age technology) without the ability to repair or build.

Tech-Use is a generalist skill when it comes to build/repair for stuff that's not covered in the design/assembly/fabrication trade skills. Tech-Use won't help you build a lasgun, but you know how to disable it's safeties that allow it to draw more from the charge pack and turn it into a impromptu frag explosive or unfoul a chain weapon's blade. Tech-Use isn't "U.S.S. Make-@#$%-Up" but it isn't so minor in it's applications on assembly/fabrication to be ignored for having them. I would go so far as to call it an intermediary with the other skills (not just trade) when making specific types of Imperium tech due to their more complex natures. For example, as GM I might require Medicae in addition to Tech-Use if the group's Tech-Priest wanted to design/modify his future/existing augmentics to begin with. He might also need Trade (Armorer) or find one to help with the design so he could convert it into a concealed weapon bionic as well as pointers in programming the MIU for implementation (What do you mean you set ALL THE MIU COMMANDS FOR MAXIMAL FIRING?!).