A simple question that, I'm sure, will have a complex answer.

Could a Rogue Trader declare war on another dynasty or planetary noble family?

If yes, could they then use their ships to level their new enemies ground based assets? (of course, being careful not to damage anyone elses)

Other than the obvious repercussions, so long as it was a limited war and, one would hope, over quite shortly, would there be any 'imperial entanglements'?

So you know gents, I am quite learned in 40k, I'm simply asking for some sort of clarification

The short answer is yes.

The imperium only cares about getting its tithe, it does not care who rules a planet or how.

The first problem the RT can run into is if he resorts to planetary bombardment (or large scale invasions) in order to take over he may be unable to pay the tithe when it comes due. (lack of people, infrastructure, or resources)

Next the person he is targeting may have allies or friends who may step in to help (he may also hire help).

Third which you have already alluded to is the RT will need to keep it contained, especially true if AdMech people or Echlesiarchy people get caught in the middle, it could go bad.

Fourth doing this to other "loyal" imperial nobels will make you NO friends in the higher circles... This one is subjective though as if it is the result of an old vendetta (such as the ones gained through character generation) that the PC is finally in a position to finish, it will likely be seen as a private matter between you and them and no ones else business. If however it is fairly obvious that he he is just invading and conquering for fun or profit, he will quickly find himself something of a pariah (which will have disastrous consequences).

So the long answer is still yes but it needs careful thought as to if he should as the consequences could be terrible.

Thanks for the response.

It was pretty much as I had imagined, thanks for the clarification.

If the war damages the ability for your opponent to pay the Imperial Tithe, however, you're looking at the Adeptus Arbites and other Imperial forces coming after you.

So any old RT out on the rim getting his ass kicked is going to require imperial intervention if the kicker was another RT? I don't buy it for a minute. The guy that can't pay the tithe is the responsible party, not the one that cleaned his locker out.

If someone is actively carrying out activities that inhibit the gathering of the Imperial Tithe, that person is working against the interests of the Imperium, and is therefore in breach of Imperial Law.

If you're going to start attacking rivals who have been authorised to run planets by the Imperium, you **** well be able to do it quickly and cleanly, without overly damaging the industry of the world, and the ability for that world to pay the Imperial Tithe.

The Imperium isn't that nice Millandson. If your house is responsible you had better fill the tithe, you can point fingers all you want but its your butt in the sling if you can't fulfill your obligations or be proven to be WEAK and UNWORTHY of your station - now that is the Imperium way. Theres a fluff example in an FFG book of a RT tricking a 'world' into giving her its tithe. She walks. And the planet is in the lurch. I'm sure they tried to say she had their tithe but guess who had to pay the tithe?

I didn't say the Imperium is that nice - they wouldn't do it because you're being mean and beating up another Rogue Trader, they'd come and beat you up because you started a war and then didn't get industrial/agricultural/etc production back up to the required level for the tithe.

It also depends on the relative power and influence of the Rogue Traders in question - if you don't have as much influence as your opponent, chances are he'll be able to call the Imperium down on his side, rather than yours.

At the end of the day, the Imperium wants it's tithe. Anyone who gets in the way of the required tithe is acting against the interests of the Imperium, a breach of Imperial Law. They don't mind you trying to take over a planet or having a civil war as long as they get their money. They don't get their money, and they'll end you.

I always looked at the tithe situation like this.

The administratum is not actually stupid, inflexable and uncaring yes, stupid no.

Failing to pay tithe is one of the worst crimes that can be committed in the eyes of the imperium failure to rectify the situation FAST can and will bring down the full might of the imperium on the offender.

If a tithe ship shows up over a world and the governor claims that he cannot pay the tithe, not will not but can not, then the tithe collector will get as much as he can and take other stuff in kind till he is satisfied that the imperium has gotten its due (equivalent value). He will also get the basics of the story as to why the tithe cannot be paid and relay a report via astropath.

An investigator will be dispatched to investigate this failure on the part of the governor (which is what it will be viewed as). His job will be to

A. Determine a new tithe rate, what it will take to get back to the old tithe rate and see whoever is in charge when he leaves implements his plans.

B. Determine if the governor has a legitimate excuse for his failure. If he does he will be left in charge most likely with an advisor to ensure he gets his house in order. If he does not he will be removed and one of his heirs or a arbits/administratum regent will be placed in charge. He will not be kind here if the failure can at all be attributed to the governor it will.

C. Find the cause and see it does not happen again. For instance in the case of an invading RT bombarded the factories and destroyed them he will go looking for the invading RT and get the missed tithe from him (one way or the other) or make an example.

A few notes, a wise governor who knows that he cannot pay the tithe would be smart to contact the administratum ahead of time. Skipping to the investigator steps, only he will be viewed in a more friendly light.

The tithe collectors do not care where the tithe comes from only that it is paid. (more important than you would think)

Not all worlds are on the administratum roles with tithes assigned. Newly discovered and exploited worlds may not make the roles for decades.

It is possible that the investigator to decide that more than one is responsible IE both the governor and the invader are at fault.

So what does this mean...

Assuming the world does have a tithe assigned.

A RT is going to invade another RTs world..

The invader would be smart to go and find out the required tithe (amount and what) and when it is collected, then stockpile as it seems prudent.

This allows him to know what he can afford to blow up and what not, also if he knows when the tithe is paid he can time his invasion to give himself the maximum time to rebuild the needed infrastructure. Any stockpile of the tithe item is a safety margin.

An invader should also have plans in place to get tithe capability back up to snuff BEFORE he invades, new workers, equipment etc. ready to go as soon as the fighting stops.

If the invader should fail in his attack and it is clear that his actions will cause the tithe to be missed it might be advisable for him to help the winning defender pay the tithe. (those resources that he had ready to go)

In short the imperium as an organization does not care if you invade someone but make very sure it gets its tithe.

RT's seem to feud with each other all the time, Winterscale & Chorda already seem to be fighting largely conventional wars over Lucin's Breath. However, what's fine for dealing with the heathen and the heretic is not okay against loyal followers of the IoM. Indiscriminate planetary bombardment (and there's really no other kind) of an Imperial colony is unquestionably an act of treachery by a pirate raider. Even the Letters of Marque from ItS's Calixian Privateer don't cover such acts. No amount of nice letters and large cheques to the Administratum would prevent the IN from declaring the perpetrator outlaw, giving a Shoot-on-Sight order, and offering a large bounty to any loyal RT who delivers the head.

That said, Imperial Entanglements should be considered a lesser threat to the reactions of their peers; if the likes of Winterscale & Chorda were to agree to a temporary cease-fire while they cooperate in 'straightening out' the dangerously loose cannon threatening their investments and allies, the offending RT had best volunteer for the Margin Crusade, and sharpish.

Starting to sound like Star Trek.

You say that like it's a bad thing. I mean, the Imperium and the Federation are both totalitarian police states that only exist in order to continue their own existence, regardless of anything else.

MILLANDSON said:

Cardassia is a police state.

The Federation is most certainly not. "The term police state describes a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic and political life of the population." That is the exact opposite of the Federation.

The IoM is a police state in the worst possible way (from our point of view), out of necessity.

The IoM and its institutions don't care if you can't pay your tithe, its coming out of your tail end in any case and if you can't pay 'your' tithe you won't have that nifty title and ship (if that wasn't stolen as well) for long after they find out you got your pants pulled over your head in a personal spat with another Rogue Trader.

'A man may fall many times, but he won’t be a failure until he says that someone pushed him.'

War between nobles is frequent, nasty and violent. Its more the norm than a rare occurance. However, the moment it starts to threaten the imperium, i.e. by breaking the Emperors law, the forces of the Imperium will start to get involved.

Planetary bombardment is almost always such a crime. Stealing the tithe is a crime, causing a world to break into civil war is such a crime.

However, although starting a civil war IS an Imperial crime. Landing a few thousand troops surreptiously and knocking out the planetary governor and replacing him with a puppet or yourself ISN'T.

When the inquisitorial/arbites/administratum types get wind of it an investigate they won't care that one ruler has been replaced by another. They only care that the new ruler is doing as good as or better than the old one at ruling the planet.

So, its perfectly fine for a rogue trader to declare war against another rogue trader or noble house as long as his war waging does not cause any damage to the imperium or break any imperial laws.

In the koronus expanse you are pretty free to do anything up to and beyond planetary bombardment. In more civilized areas, reckless destruction of property will get you killed.

Take in mind as well that most imperial worlds have excellent surface to space defenses, defense monitors, etc. A frigate or raider will have a very hard time bombarding even a small imperial world.

There needs to be a distinction between the imperium and the powers within the imperium. Things that can get you on the hit list of the imperium itself are few and fairly specific.. Not paying tithe, raising rebellion against the emperor and the high lords, worshiping chaos..etc.

Things than can get you on the hit list of the various powers within the imperium is much greater and nebulous.

Planetary bombardment is not in itself a crime against the imperium. However the various powers within are likely to take exception to a RT doing it. It is almost a academic point as the consequences can be equally dire. For instance any bombardment of a civilized area is almost certain to kill echlasiarchy, admech, arbites (if arbites are present on that world), and administratum personnel and property. Good luck sorting that one out, to say nothing of the general negative (possibly violently negative) opinion of you generated in almost every other powerful person and organization. Bad juju very bad.

That does not mean it is impossible to get away with it just that you need to be very careful and mindful of all the ramifications.

bobh said:

1) Federation has no use of material gain, according to Picard in "First Contact" (as well as being mentioned by other characters in the various series), and so people don't have economic freedom, as they all work together for the betterment of the Federation. If Picard's statement is true, that means that an individual under the Federation arguably has less freedom than under the Imperium (at least they'd have economic freedom in the Imperium).

2) The Prime Directive - that's a hell of a rigid control over both their own populations and those of non-aligned planets, covering economics, social and political life. However, when it suits them, they frequently break it (by supplying a faction in a war that would benefit the Federation), making them incredibly hypocritical and self serving.

3) Frequently shown as basically believing everyone should follow the way they do things, and believing anyone not following the way the Federation does things, or people who think it should work differently, are wrong and bad. This includes "rebels" or the like on Federation worlds, as has been shown in various series - one example is the Marquis, people who just want to protect their own planets after being essentially betrayed by the Federation, and the Federation brands them terrorists and thinks they should just deal with it. There are numerous occasions where the Federation does things like take people's planets away from them, just because they don't want to be in the Federation anymore.

Basically, it's all about your point of view - to some the Federation is close to a utopia, to others it's a dystopia. They're no-where close to being the entirely benevolent society you seem to think they are.

Also, to the person who decided to be ignorant and insulting, rather than reasonably consider a differing point of view - just because someone doesn't agree with your perception of things doesn't make their opinion any less valid. Please acknowledge that, on the internet, sometimes people just won't share your opinion, and that is neither bad, nor wrong.

MILLANDSON said:

I agree with this, but then again: it just sounds so hypocritical coming from you as i can distinctly remember at least two occassions where you did just this after i posted my opinion and i've seen more threads where your opinion was delivered as a "shut up you don't know what you're talking about you daft git".

As to the federation: the federation exists to perpetuate an ideal which they are trying to put into practice more perfectly every day. The imperium exists to perpetuate itself because they don't think anyone who doesn't share their ideals is worthy only of the death sentence as soon as it can be delivered.

The federation has numerous pacts with non-federation planets/civilisations/empires for alliances or simply non-agression, which allows them to coexist relatively peacefully. The Imperium does not, and if it does make such an arrangement temporarily then it's only with the intent to betray it once they move sufficient military/oratory resources in place to annihilate the ones they made the arrangement with.

The federation has a set of laws which apply to all within it's domains. While they are not perfect, and take that into account when judging people, they nominally do have the same set of rules for all. The imperium has a differing set of rules depending where on the social ladder you are, it has a secret police that can get away with virtually anything (including the summoning of daemons in many cases, or using daemonbound weapons) as opposed to the federation where i've never seen anything of the like. More importantly on this score however is that the federation seems to tend to trust people to follow the federational line and gives you quite a bit of leeway to espouse differing views to their own ... as long as it doesn't result in rebellious actions (once you are in the federation you stay there pretty much). It also tends to approach other civilisations with diplomacy first, rather then military first (not always but about 95-99% of the time). This is entirely the reverse in IoM as you can hardly espouse a philosophy differing from the imperial creed that won't risk you being branded a heretic, which is made all the worse since the imperial creed can differ from sector to sector and you have your own secret service espousing all kinds of clearly rebellious views (not to mention the creed of the Astartes and Admech is radically different from mainstream).

I'm also not sure where you get your economics point about the federation. In DS 9 for example there are numerous shops aboard the federation space station that simply seem to pay taxes but are otherwise free to do what they want - within confines of the law (organising klingon-romulan knife fights would be against it for example). Quark or whatsthename of the Ferengi there runs a bar which he does to make a profit for himself, not for the federation. To me it looks as if the federation simply put a rather sensible limit in place against trade empires, banning capitalism but not entrepreneurs. In other words since you have a law degree: corporations are not considered persons in a legal sense.

First off to Millandson.

If you were referring to me, and I reckon you were cause I called you on the bs you were spewing about the federation you have a lot to learn.

The federation is like a socialist society that may not appeal to you, but you can't demonize it as a police state cause its not. Members within the federation don't even have to contribute to the betterment of their society, though it is encouraged. They aren't knowingly going to let you starve or be homeless unless for some crazy reason you want to be.

As pointed out the federation doesn't have an economy as you understand it. You want something go replicate it. You want to go out and eat at a fine restaurant go do it and guess what there's no check to pick up either. The people in the federation who run restaurants do it cause they enjoy cooking and serving others. That's it. There's no paycheck coming at the end of the week. They don't need it...

DS9 was until Bajor entered the federation a bajorian space station surrendered to the bajorians after the treaty that ended the Cardassian occupation. The federation presence in the sector was there at the request of the Bajorian government. Once Bajor joined the federation then yes it became a federation station.

The running of businesses on the station as pointed out was done buy non federation citizens and in no way suffered because of it. If you want ferengi money there are ways to get it. Bartering being the most popular or one could make a requisition request if you are an officer and you need the funds to secure equipment or materials that cannot be replicated.

The federation also likes to associate themselves with people who have similar ideals though often make exceptions. Klingons, anybody? The Klingons keep slaves and put prisoners in forced labor camps, but since the federation doesn't want to wipe them out utterly as long as they play nice when expected to its cool.

Do federation prisoners engage in labor activities? Yes, though it is not forced its a typical good behavior work gang. We know this because when Tom Paris was recruited for Voyager's mission he was in such a penal colony laboring.

Also, federation science excels in defensive technology hell there are weapons out there they could use but don't. A police state would be more likely to be heavily armed and patrolled; not heavily shielded. Hell, klingon civilian transports have weapons and cloaks where the feds have shields and a radio to call for help.

One last thing Since no one else mentioned it Section 31 is not the Inquisition however the Obsidian Order is pretty **** close.

llsoth said:

Your process is very wrong. The Imperium would never waste that level of time and resources on this. As they say, "Victory requires no explanation. Defeat allows none". If you can't get them their tithe, you're SOL, and that's all there is to it. They don't care why. They will not waste an investigator's time determining new rates and recommendations. That's the planetary governor's job, and one at which he failed. The price of failure will be losing his position if he's lucky and for some reason it's politically expedient, or more likely death, as that will get him out of the way and set an example for others. THAT is the imperial way. "Fault" is irrelevant, and "excuses" are not tolerated. You think an Imperial Guard unit that disobeys orders will get sat down and asked if they had a legitimate excuse for why they did it? Nope, just a look down the barrel of a Commisar's gun. Same with the planetary governor. It's not that they don't care where the tithe comes from, either- a planet could pay Double the normal tithe, and no other planet would be excused from paying it. What matters is if they can follow their one obligation to the Imperium and do their job. If they can't, there are untold billions more who are more than wiling to take the job. The actual process would go

A) Decide if the governor is unable or unwilling to deliver the tithe. If unable, replace him. If unwilling, kill him and dispatch an Investigator to determine if there is concern over widespread rebellion or heresy.

B) If the unwillingness to pay was isolated to the Governor, replace him. If there is widespread rebellion or heresy, determine if the planet can be saved. If it can, perform the appropriate actions (drawing in the minesortum, missions, etc). If not, condemn the planet to annihilation.

C) Move on with their lives, unaffected by the plight of an individual planet, much less an individual. Investigation as to why the failure happened? Not in this lifetime.

So, if one RT decides to attack another, it would go much as the rulebook describes- substellar ships and emplacements are free reign. Don't touch anything the Imperium owns. If he succeeds in conquest, declare rights of conquest, and make DARN sure the tithes are paid. If he fails, protect himself from retribution from the individual in question, and hope he can't pay the tithes and the problem is solved for you.

Don't try to make the Imperium, or the bloody conquest of planets, to be more warm and fuzzy 'let's help each other pay the tithes' or 'oh, you failed me? That's ok, I'm super forgiving as long as you have a good reason' than it is.

I would add the qualifier that it may take up to a couple millenia for someone to notice that there is a problem. As long as you pay up when they notice, they are probably going to accept the fait accompi. If you cant pay up, well that is what astartes are for.

Dr. Quinn

So what you are saying is that as a RT I can go to someones system I don't like and orbital bombard his tithe producing facilities then leave, and he would bear 100% of the responsibility? In short I don't have to conquer my foes or even defeat them all I need to do is sabotage their tithe (in whatever fashion) and the imperium will end them for me?

I submit that this would lead to vast confusion and lost tithe to the imperium on a huge scale. If the imperium wants to insure the constant flow of its tithe it has to care about why the tithe was not paid beyond the personnel motivations of the governor.

I guess if you could distill what I was trying to say it would be that the imperium wants its tithe and will punish those responsible for its not getting it as well as attempting to ensure that it gets its tithe in the future. Your version seems to say that they do not care why the tithe was not paid beyond if they should kill or simply replace the governor, which is to say the imperium is stupid.

Do I think a IG regiment that disobeyed orders would be asked why they disobeyed orders... absolutely. In fact failure to do it this way would have already lead tot the fall of the imperium. Take the following example a regiment is ordered to take hill 112 which has some artillary and some dug in infantry protecting it. As they advance they notice that their information/intelligence was faulty. The enemy is actually on nearby hill 111, so they assault hill 111. According to you the most likely outcome would be the summary execution of the leadership and the rest sent to the penal legions. This is not born out in pretty much all the fluff I can think of, as there are usually shouted questions over the vox like "What do you think you are doing I told you to (whatever)." and even later trials and investigations. Some of the tanith books are good examples of how this may work and what happens when your model is insisted upon.

You make it sound like I am being warm and fuzzy about helping the guy you just invaded to pay the tithe. Really? Think about why someone would do that. Maybe I couched the terms of what the imperium does to those it views responsible for lost tithe in too bland terms this was unintentional. They are not kind, fuzzy, or warm but neither are they stupid. No RT ever wants the imperium poking into his business, and if helping someone you just failed to invade pay the tithe can keep them away it can be a small price to pay precisely because they are so iron handed.

I understand that the super harsh interpretation fits with the promoted uber grimdark atmosphere that GW tries to portray, it is however not actually workable.

llsoth said:

Which was pretty much entirely my point.

Also, if it is a full Imperial world that is paying a tithe (rather than just a world colonised by a Rogue Trader, who has made sure that said colony is never quite able to tick all the boxes for becoming an Imperial planet), you have just attacked the Imperium, which makes you a traitor.

It is only on non-Imperial planets that the Rogue Trader has the power to invade and attack - do so to a planet claimed by the Imperium, and all the money or Warrants in the world couldn't help you from being declared a traitor.

MILLANDSON said:

I actually think we are more or less in agreement except for a few relatively minor points.

The first is what equals a tithe payingimperial world. For instance Damaris pays tithe but is not considered to be a actual imperial colony. Which I take to mean that the imperium more or less thinks that any planet with humans on it should be assigned a tithe. Of course a RT does have methods to keep a world off tithe rolls, for a time at least.

The second is what constitutes an attack on a world. What I was talking about is not a generalized planetary assault with millions of troops (and yes you would need millions) crushing cities under bomb loads and long range artillery. But more of a surgical strike against a specific target be it a person(governor), noble family, business concern, or RT Dynasty.

As I said in earlier posts I would say this is prickly proposition and great care needs to be taken but it is possible to do. Otherwise what is the difference between a RT (who may already be a planetary noble(IE controls land there already)) making war on another planetary noble, and 2 planetary nobles making war on each other (which the imperium could care less about as long as tithe gets paid).

My question is, exactly who are you declaring war to? Is a Rogue Trader house poltically capable of declaring war against other Imperial subjects? Within or without of Imperial borders?

A: Are you asking permission from an Imperial authority that would be authorized to sanction such actions against another Imperial subject, before, during or after the event?

B: Or, are you declaring a war by fiat without sanction.

Both questions are interesting. in the case of the former, there would need to be 'poltical will' to change the status quo for any reason - if current measures are satisfactory. The situation may require a RT to create a motive for a direct military conflict that is politically correct - or depending on the Imperial authority you are appealling too: a personal reason for their consent (blackmail, greed, psychic maniplulation, etc) and acceptance of the official responsiblity for agreeing with you. In the case of the later - you flirt, dangerously so, with as already mentioned a conflict of interest with the Imperium, at large.

In the specific case of a Rogue Trader, I would argue that it comes to location. Within the Imperium a RT has no ability to declare "official" war on an Imperial subject - any matters that would require military solution - would be handled by Imperial forces, as such, personal feuds and private wars would be an alternative. Feuding within the borders of the Imperiium is, to my estimation, tolerated to a point - which is to say, feud as much as you like as long as you don't exceed your poltical and economic ability to pay for it - ie. interfering with Imperial tithes, trading or communication. If you exceed your ability to cover the damages of your private war, expect the Imperium to come to collect for the disturbance you have caused. ie. fighting around Scintilla would be extremely expensive if not totally beyond any budget, while fighting around a backwater colony, very cheap.

Outside of the Imperium, is a whole different question. The most important element to my mind would be: how important are the holdings - you are declaring war on, to the Imperium? Namely, does it enjoy a large Imperial presence or the patronage in general of those within the Expanse itself. If the presence is strong with Imperial or Imperial-allied forces I would consider it just as, or more dangerous than attacking something within the borders (safe ports-of-call, being rare and important). If it is neither especiallly frequented or important to the Imperium (ie. worlds claimed by Winterscale - well important, are part of a pocket empire and not coming out of Imperial pockets directly, but expect strong private-army and political backlash if you're ever identified), you are entering into the grey area, where a conflict by fiat is more acceptable.

Lucien's Breath is good a example of a 'cold conflict' where neither party wishes to declare war (feud) and cause too much collateral damage to their economic interests - so instead of a destructive war, you have a quiet but dangerous low-intensity conflict. A good point to remeber is that a war is entirely destructive and goes entirely against the idea of making profit - starship weapons are more than capable of causing a profitable world to be made useless (which ulimately is a bad thing for the expansion of the Imperium) - and if you are in the habit of laying waste to worlds, expect to be treated like the destructive criminal you are.