so i started my first rouge trader game, with the third session coming up this Tuesday. I have been GMing games for over 20 years and i have run into all kinds of players and have several ways to deal with the different types.

so here is my situation. I have a player that after a few intro sessions wants to be a space marine or nothing. (i know, i know) so i have decided to deal with him be giving him what he wants with a twist. I'm going to allow him to be one but i'm making him a lowly scout in exile.

any tips on de-leveling a space marine down a few levels

When rolling up his attributes, have him roll 2d10 + 25 instead of + 30. However, if he is a brand new, and I mean brand new scout, put him on an even keel with the other Explorers and have him roll 2d10 + 20.

Have the scout start with 1d5 + 10 Wounds rather than 1d5 + 18.

Have him begin play with nothing more powerful than Scout Armour.

Cap his Fate Points at 3 or 4.

Any or all of the suggestions listed above can help level the playing field between the Explorers and the Scout Marine.

ok good points. hadn't even looked at a space marines fate yet.

Let him make up an Archmilitant character, per the standard RT rules and then let him 'buy' up the Space Marine traits (Omophagaea, Unnatural Strength, Unnatural Toughness etc) for 1000 - 2000 xp each... you can explain it as his implants gradually integrating with his natural physiology over time. When he gets to 13000 or 14000 xp spent (whatever it is that starting DW space marines count as the equivalent of) he can then transfer into a Death Watch career path...

Lots of Options here. Lots of fun options.

Allow him to be a full fledged marine from a disgraced chapter like the Mantis Warriors that will not be reconstituted so his resources will be limited to what he has carried away on his penitent journey with him. As a penitent his Fate can be limited to ONE meaning he has invoked the ire of the God-Emperor and must make amends before his luck changes.

Another option is to allow him to be from a disgraced Legion from the Heresy, such as a Night Lord who was trapped in stasis aboard a ship lost in the warp. He split from his brothers after they were freed and started to wander. He has NO friends in the IoM if they find out his true nature. This might mean his armor is either gone (stolen from the ship before he was wakened) or old (earlier Marks).

The two choices above would at least allow him to deviate from the Codex Astartes without much problem and keep the suspension of disbelief up a bit better than an Ultramarine palling around with a RT. In either case make it clear that he was a very recent initiate into the full Astartes from Scout meaning his career as an Astartes in only several decades long at most to start.

If you want advice on Chapter Specific abilities and Mores tell me what his Chapter is and we can discuss that specific area of character Creation. Removing him from the safety of the Chapter and its forges also allows the acquisition system to become his only source of gear (unless he captures some) rather than Renown and Requisition.

In no case allow him to be a Librarian, Apothecary or Chaplain as his Specialty. Tactical, Assault and Devestator are good choices.

Do NOT allow the Deathwatch Training Talent or Forbidden Lore (Xenos) as gained by Deathwatch marines when they start. Make it clear he will never access Deathwatch Advances as the Deathwatch are not in his future. When you know his Chapter you can either use an existing similar advance char for Chapter Specific Advances or make one of your own that fits that he can use later.

Allow starting Characteristics as Normal 30+2d10. Remember he gets unnatural STR and Toughness. This is not as much an issue as it seems but it does make him harder to kill, which is good - his party will learn to hide behind him. This can be bad for the gifted marine

All Marines start with 12,000 xp. Thats it, don't allow him to spend the additional 1,000 gained by Deathwatch Initiates. Remind him he will be rank 1 until he goes from 12,000 XP to 17,000 xp. A long road to Rank 2.

Limit on XP:

Another thing: as he (determined by the penitent or outcast marine type picked) is in the hot seat with the God-Emperor make it clear that he MUST cleave to the straight and narrow and avoid corruption et cetera. Until he gains a certain amount of XP he will only get to spend half the xp the party gets in reward for adventures. This means, essentially, forever he will earn less than them as he starts with 12,000xp.

Optionally he can sacrifice organs (page 36 DW Core)(failed to take or his gene seed is not pure and they don't work) to lower the xp he starts with essentially makin ghim less powerful. He can sacrifice skills and gear too to reduce his XP total from 12,000.

Thats all i've got for now.

Some things i've noticed - their real power is in their Talents, Organs and as such don't try to take them all away - its looking liek they're simply not worth 12,000 xp - maybe 8. The thing you can do if he is a Heresy era marine is take away the Black Carapace as that wasn't around back then. This means he won't get to have the nifty ability to avoid being hit so easily due to his size in powered armour.

None of the other organs seem to be so unbalancing but they make him tough as heck when it comes to not dying.

Skills are really ho-hum:

Trained
Awareness, Ciphers (Chapter Runes), Climb, Common Lore (Adeptus Astartes, Imperium, War), Concealment, Drive (Ground Vehicles), Literacy, Navigation (Surface), Scholastic Lore (Codex Astartes), Silent Move, Speak Language (High Gothic, Low Gothic), Tactics, Tracking
Untrained, Basic
Barter, Carouse, Charm, Command, Contortionist, Deceive, Disguise, Dodge, Evaluate, Gamble, Inquiry, Intimidate, Logic, Scrutiny, Search, Swim

But starting talents are really nice:

• Ambidextrous,
• Astartes Weapon Training,
• Bulging Biceps, Heightened Senses (Hearing, Sight) +10 to relevant Awareness Tests,
• Killing Strike,
• Nerves of Steel,
• Quick Draw,
• Resistance (Psychic Powers),
• True Grit,
• Unarmed Master
• Unnatural Strength (x2)
• Unnatural Toughness (x2)

Thats where the points are allright.

After examining it this closely i'd allow one to join my rt group at Rank 1 with no changes.

If you are worried about his equipment being unbalancing - it can be if he is fully kitted out but even RT's can get a supply of Heavy Bolter shells - not allowing him to use signature equipment like a boltgun would be silly. If he's an assault marine he'd have a chainsword and pistol if u want to go that route which is a lot less unbalancing than a Devestator or Tac marine especially if he hasn't got access to his powered armour.

Personally?

Let him be nothing - if he's going to sulk if you don't allow him to be something that he is obviously only wanting to be so he's "more powerful" than everyone else, he's a player you don't need.

Out of curiosity, what is his stated reason for wanting to play a Space Marine in Rogue Trader?

I like the idea of having him earn xp at a reduced rate until the rest of the group has caught up.

Ask him to justify how a single Space Marine is permanently working with a Rogue Trader crew that has done nothing for his chapter. Shoot down anything stupid he comes up with, he will eventually either give up or produce a backstory that gives you plenty of problems to throw at him.

Wait for Black Crusade to come out, then give him the option of playing a Chaos Space Marine on a RT vessel. Complete with all the problems that will cause, as the crew (including other players) have plenty of in-character reasons to want him dead when they find out just what he is.

Personally, I prefer telling him that a Space Marine is not an option. The best response to "do x or I leave the game" is usually "goodbye".

bobh said:

Er. What?

Having come across a similar occurence in a game I played in a few months back (Kroot or nothing!), our solution as players was to simply the let the player hang...If he's going to be that narrowminded about his character selection and not even entertain alternative possibilities then let him go. Not worth the breath.

Errant said:

It wasn't around back then if i recall. I'll go dig in my mountain of fluff books. The one thing that stuck in my mind recently about it was a crusade era marine removing a bodyglove and thinking to himself about how that was how he achieved symbiosis with his armour. That is the black carapaces job in modern marines. I think it was a marine named Garviel...

ug. I can't find it. I'll have to look through several sources now. nevermind, I'll withdraw that contention until I find what jogged my memory.

Nevermind I was wrong - I found another part in a recent book where he gets cut open and clearly has a carapace. Sorry.

he doesn't want to be a marine for the power factor but he does tend to like big explosions, the request just caught me on a frustrating day of learning a new system while running a game. in truth i'm being overly nice to my players this game myself and three other players have had some 2 years of terrible games under other gm's recently we were in a great one using the old alternity system but we had some changes and could no longer make the game, it was a bit of a blow to our gamer moral so this is meant to be a very easy and glory filled romp in space. He wants to be a marine cause they are the marines. the holy of the holy go kick ass in the name of the emperor angels of death. he doesn't care about being supped up and ripping the head off of a hive tyrant. he just wants the back story of a chapter and the weird organs. I took what a lot of you said and did the math. but in the end I had an evil thought so I have made him a full on marine with no starting xp. I will be only allowing rouge trader cs equipment. scout armor starting, no deathwatch skills or talents, no killing strike, no unarmed master, and depending on his chapter choice i may yank out a few organs. he is a fan of the white scars, salamanders and blood ravens. with that kind of power man in the unit now i can not feel bad when i hit them with a carnifex every now and then. also to bring the rest of the party in line i'm gonna give my non marines some serious bio enhancement. oh and he is so getting a major enemy (disgraced battle brother)

Why doesn't he just play an Arch-Militant then? They do big explosions too, and don't require you to allow him to be a special flower different to everyone else.

Let them all play marines... hear me out.

It is an age old tradition (my opinion as I started out with the original RT many moons ago) for RT's to have marines as help on some missions. Have them roll up both kinds of characters, RTs and Marines. The marines can be of use (say a squad) and are on loan from an allied Chapter. The missions they'd run for the RT are up to you but that way anyone can join in on the marine fun. The focus can remain the RT group and when the tim eis right they can ask their allied squad to clear an objective.

RiggsPCG said:

Tell him to make an Arch-Militant who was raised in a group that based its structure off a Space Marine chapter. Suggest he picks up the Gland Warrior alternate rank from Into The Storm. After he has that, then you will be willing to open discussions about other house ruled organs.

That might satisfy him.

Honestly, I've found space marines to only be overpowered in terms of raw ability. When even a beginning character can start with an inferno pistol and a set of power armor or a handful of autocannon armed servitors then the threat of a single astartes becomes minimal.

All I did was cap the player's XP until the rest of the group had caught up, and removed the deathwatch specific options from the starting character. I actually find the ork to be more unbalanced than an astartes. But that may be due to the temperament of the players.

Another thing to bear in mind is the gear. I gave the astartes a set amount of points to purchase all the gear he'd have available, excluding standard ammunition and select other items. If he breaks or loses his astartes chainsword...then he's going to be stuck using a modified mortal's weapon unless he comes across a replacement. I also made sure to remind him astartes gear is only unique, and only available in select areas after extensive searches (and no few skill checks from the rest of the players).

Though I'm one of those people who wouldn't be playing Rogue Trader if I was stuck being a human (I play kroot when I play) I certainly sympathize with you as a GM. If all he wants to do is smash things, then it's likely he'll end up as a party bully unless a careful eye is kept on him and or he's proved himself as a responsible player. On the other hand, letting people play what's fun for them isn't a bad thing.

EDIT: saw he wanted to be a marine for the background so removed my question about him being an ork. ^^

I had the same problem with wanting to be an astartes in RT a while back. Knowing my GM isn't that crazy though, I revised my character concept to a bitter young man who was really good with weapons (homeworld was a chapter homeworld). He was a prime candidate for the astartes, but he was cheated out of it in the chapter's trials (tricked by another aspirant who went on to become a marine). His goal was to become the closest thing to a marine he could be and eventually drive a knife through the traitors heart(s), no matter the cost (he fully expected everyone on his homeworld to despise him and for the chapter in question to go after him)

I had the same problem with wanting to be an astartes in RT a while back. Knowing my GM isn't that crazy though, I revised my character concept to a bitter young man who was really good with weapons (homeworld was a chapter homeworld). He was a prime candidate for the astartes, but he was cheated out of it in the chapter's trials (tricked by another aspirant who went on to become a marine). His goal was to become the closest thing to a marine he could be and eventually drive a knife through the traitors heart(s), no matter the cost (he fully expected everyone on his homeworld to despise him and for the chapter in question to go after him)

Accursed double posts...

Accursed lack of edit feature...

Have him be a kill-marine. There is a passage in RoB that specifically says they can be inserted into a RT party with advice on how to deal with the power discrepancies.

One of my players asked to play a Space Marine, too. I let him play an Arch-Militant and gave him a power armor and a bolter as starting equipment – and he was perfectly happy.

I had a player who had just rolled a Navigator, and obviously wasn't having much fun, but was making the best of it. In between sessions, I pitched the idea of him playing a Grey Night. However, he'd be a neophyte grey knight, so to speak, out to prove his worth before becoming a full brother. The players have accepted the company of one of the acolytes of an Inquisitor, who was tasked with advising them on the treasure hunt they were undertaking. He brought a large variety of "luggage" with him, arms coffers, stasis crates, etc. The new Knight is sealed in one of them, having been sent out by his Brothers to prove himself by fighting the foes of the inquisition without the aid of blessed weapons or armor.

Functionally, the player is starting without any of the crazy-awesome gear of the Grey Knights, or even of a regular Space Marine chapter, and without the black carapace implant, as well as without any psyker powers. The powers I'll allow him to unlock, the armor I fully expect him to "discover" as the party's adventure continues. So far, it has been nicely balanced.

Personally, I would suggest tweaking the equipment and some of the mechanics the Space Marines in this RPG work with.

First of all, get rid of the ridiculous difference between Astartes and Non-Astartes gear that goes against what Games Workshop themselves had established. There is no point in increasing the biological gap between Marine and normal human even further by inventing a gear difference just so that Marine players may feel even better whilst the rest has to suffer, as this would only make crossover games even more difficult to pull off. AP8 armour and a normal boltgun + chainsword will be perfectly fine, your player will still end up doing lots of damage and crazy stuff. It should be Good Quality, though, if not Best.

Secondly, tweak the Unnatural Stats, robbing the Marine of both his invincibility towards "mortal" weapons as well as his ability to deal fist-punches that end up causing more damage than a plasma shot to the face. Aside from the aforementioned compatibility issues, a progression using multipliers is somewhat unstable in general - so instead of just doubling the affected characteristic, have his Unnatural Traits confer a flat +20 or maybe +30 bonus.

Thirdly, no squad modes, no "ignore Hulking penalties" and no "Free FP" Demeanours. No immunity towards corruption either. Take a read through all the other special rules that a Marine character would get and remove the ones that set him apart from how the game normally works. He should get to keep his organs and their advantages, though, as well as the ability to fire heavy weapons without bracing.

Hopefully, this may work out in a way that lets the Marine retain his terrible efficiency in combat without turning everyone else into a bystander once a fight breaks out. Best case scenario it would look and feel exactly like in some of those novels where you have Marines and humans working side by side (instead of warping the reader's perception by focusing on just one of them).

This I've used for some time now running parallel to to 10k xp DH characters and it works alright for what it is. Once they complete ALL of the advances, implants and stats, they're a marine at around the 12,500xp mark + I figured about +500xp to buy the deathwatch special abilities.

To adjust to-suit RT, you'd probably either want to bolster the RT characters considerably up to 10k xp or, increase the cost of these advances expotentially to match or even deduct some skills, growing implants and talents which they'd have to buy to be on par with RT characters. Its a little rough and ugly, but it works ok.

Gear, just give them scout armour, a bolt gun, some ammo and a knife, be really ******* mingy about it and make them WORK for it! (and shoot at them with melta weapons or worse... frequently) Be sure to use the addended Astartes weapon damage and rules, you will need Deathwatch the book to understand how it all clicks together if you dont already have it.

Sorry if it doesn't format well.

Stat Generation +2D10 (Stick them where you want)
WS 25 Strength 25 Agility 25 Perception 25 Fellowship 25
BS 25 Toughness 25 Intelligence 25 Willpower 25
(Don't forget Emperor's grace- 1 x re-roll on lowest score)

Apply Chapter specific modifiers and give yourself a name

Starting Skills
Awareness (Per), Ciphers (Chapter) (Int), Climb (Str), Dodge (Ag), Common Lore (Astartes, Imperium, War) (Int) Concealment (Ag), Literacy (Int), Scholastic Lore (Codex Astartes) (Int) Silent Move (Ag) Speak Language (High & Low Gothic) (Int) Survival (Int)
Starting Talents
Ambidextrous, Astartes Weapons Training, Heightened Senses (Sight+Hearing), Resistance (Psychic Powers)
True Grit, Unarmed Master
Starting Traits
Unnatural Strength (x2) Unnatural Toughness (x2)
Heritage Skill
Pick One (1) skill from your characters background- Social, Trade, Language or Common Lore

Space Marine Implants (Active)
Secondary Heart Ossmodula Biscopea Haemastamen Larramans Organ Catalepseam Node
Omophagea Multi Lung Occulobe Lymans Ear Sus-An Membrane Melanchrome

Wounds: 1D5+16
Fate Points (Roll 1D10 1-7 = 3, 8-9 = 4, 10 = 5)

Military Specialisation
Apothecary- Medicae, Chem Use
Special: Guardian of Purity or Create Toxins or Enhance Healing
Assault- Swift Attack
Special: Wings of Angels or Wrathful Descent
Devastator- +3 Ballistic Skill
Special: Immovable Warrior or Unrelenting Devastation
Librarian- Psyniscience
Special: Psy Rating 3, Pick 2 x Psy Techniques (Buying a 3rd will cost 100xp)
Tactical- Command
Special: Bolter Mastery or Tactical Expertise
Techmarine- Tech-Lingua, Tech Use
Special: Improve Cover and Blessed by the Omnissiah (Mechanicus Implants, Electro-Graft Use Mechanderite Use)

Scout Advances
500xp to Spend on the below stats, talents, implants and skills

Stat Advances (All) +5 (250xp)

Space Marine Implants (Still growing- must be bought in order 1, 2, 3, 4)
1: Mucranoid 100xp
2: Betchers Gland 100xp
3: Progenoids 100xp
4: Black Carapace 100xp

Scout Advances
Drive (Ground vehicle) 100xp Bulging Biceps 100xp
Intimidate 100xp Nerves of Steel 100xp
Navigation (Surface) 100xp Killing Strike 100xp
Tactics (Choose 1) 100xp Quick Draw 100xp
Tracking 100xp Sound Constitution (x2) 100xp

Cohesion, Solo, Chapter and Squad Modes-
These are applicable to Rank 1 Space Marines, scout marines currently don't have access to Deathwatch training or other advanced abilities.