So going against all the advice of the veteran's my buddies and I have picked up Sea of Blood without getting any other expansions yet, and while I've played about six games all the way through as Overlord, the players have only completed the first vanilla quest. We're all really excited to play an Advanced Campaign; I'm normally the DM for our D&D group, but I just don't have the spare time to invest in between game work anymore, and Descent's advanced campaign seems like a great chance to get together and dungeon crawl each week!

So, I'm going to be keeping a journal of our sessions in this thread (nothing super detailed, just the high-level view) and use it as a platform to ask questions that come up during the session we aren't sure about!

The First Session - 07/17/2011

The heroes for the campaign are:

• Red Scorpion (Bow, Leather) + Holy Aura
• Battlemaster Jaes (Immolation, Leather Armor, Ghost Rune) + Wild Talent
• Nara the Fang (Axe, Chainmail) + Cautious
• Steelhorns (Sword, Shield, Chainmail) + Runner

For the avatar I randomly drew Captain Bones, chose Leviathan for my plot, and used my 15 free XP to purchase Death Head.

Week 1

I get an XP and the heroes buy up 5 potions in Gafford for 25 gold a piece. Pretty simple turn.

Week 2

I get another XP and the heroes move to The Hollow Woods and enter the dungeon!

The first level was No Quarter (razorwing leader) and they move around really cautiously, trying to avoid me being able to spawn anything. Eventually they get sloppy and between a Master Beastman + Rage and a spawned Skeleton Patrol + Charge I manage to suicide a skeleton into Nara, followed by hitting solidly with the sorcerer, and then Raging the beastman to finish him off in one turn! Felt pretty great. The first barrel ends up being a treasure, but it's just coins and potions. That brought up our first question:

Q1. When you land on Coins, is it just 400 gold for the party?

It's 100 gold per hero in Vanilla and I couldn't find anything that changed that. That's how we played it, anyway. So they actually stalled at the end of the first level trying to get everyone Rested and ready to go lower, while I was stockpiling some more threat. I discarded Evil Genius hastily and wish I hadn't--the extra threat from an extra card draw a turn could be huge. Lesson learned.

Next level was Mirabelle's Fall; I went with the minions that gave me an ogre, hoping to pound some face with him. The level went pretty fast, I nibbled at their wounds here and there but didn't accomplish a lot; I got through my deck for some XP and then at the end Nara got cocky and announced how he was going to destroy the leader, but a Collapsing Ceiling trap stopped him short, then a Skeleton Patrol from behind netted a bunch of free wounds on him. Then I dropped a Rage and Mirabelle's first blast didn't break his armor, but the second one was just enough damage to equal his armor. Then I dumped a bunch of cards to swell my giant threat pool already, and bombed him with four more silver dice.

Q2. I couldn't find any limit to fatigue/threat purchased power dice during the attack roll based on the campaign.

Is there a limit somewhere that I'm missing (besides tons of threat)? Anyway I landed 4 more wounds from those dice, which was just enough to finish him off! So he actually raced back in from the glyph and two-shotted her (used Battle + Fatigue), but my 4 XP was gained, so I was all smiles.

The last level was Jacob's Lament. I dropped a bunch of hell hounds down, hoping their pierce would help, but I had kind of a blah fun on this level. They had only gotten coin so far though, which was good. They went through the level pretty fast, though I did finally score a kill on Battlemage Jaes when I caught him out of fatigue (Ghost Rune) and pounced. I hurled Jacob + Rage and a Skeleton Patrol (kamikaze every time I play them) and managed to finish him off while only purchasing a single gold die with 6 threat.

In the last few rounds I was out of cards, out of threat, just waiting for them to finish the dungeon, hoping to draw a trap card. They finally got a treasure (Great Bow), spent one more turn restocking at the Market (they bought a Belt of Strength and Crystal Shield) then ended their turn back in Gafford. This is the question we were the most unsure about:

Q3. When any encounter is finished, the heroes get all of their fatigue back; do they get their fatigue back after a Dungeon/Island?

Week 3

I grabbed another XP (up to 17!) and bought my first Lieutenant (The Siren). She starts on one of the Bindings so she'll start the siege next week. The heroes stayed in the town and bought a ranged trait for Red Scorpion, melee trait for Nara the Fang, sent Steelhorns to the tavern for rumors, and Jaes headed to the alchemist to restock their potions. Steelhorns just got into a barfight and took 4 wounds and that was the end of our session.

We had a great time and we're playing again next week! They'll have to travel somewhere else now if they want to explore so maybe we'll get a sea encounter next! Anyway, stay tuned for the journal update next week! Oh, the ending XP totals:

Players - 19, Overlord - 17

Eugee said:

FFG need their arse kicked for the picture placed on Red Scorpion. She is by a wide margin the worst hero of all, but so many noobs take her, apparently due to the picture.
I'd seriously advise changing her before you start next week.
Her skill is also one of the worst skills out there.

Overall, you will be in serious trouble with 2 melee heroes too, and neither non-melee hero is very strong at killing things. You are at a serious disadvantage in any encounter or Lt battle - melee heroes are almost useless when stuck on your ship.

The good news is that none of it matters much, as if the OL plays hard SoB is impossible anyway, so just have fun doing your thing anyway.

Eugee said:

Yes. As you note, nothing has changed from the vanilla campaign.
And yes, discarding Evil Genus is always a bad idea in the first half of a dungeon. It is the best card in your deck

Eugee said:

This was illegal. The ability to pay threat for additional dice (or movement) is only available during encounters. It specifically says this where the rule is noted. It is not available during dungeons.

Eugee said:

No limit, except the usual 5 power dice maximum (so 5 gold dice limit).
The campaign level limit is for Trait dice, which means trained extra dice (+ the starting trait dice of course).

As noted above though, you can't buy any extra dice with threat during a dungeon.

Eugee said:

Yes.

pretty sure by the way the board is laid out and the skills listed for the cities that starting in Gafford is a misprint and you are supposed to start in Garnot like is printed on the plot cards.

Nope. It's the plot cards that are misprinted.

-pw

Nobody knows which part is misprinted - it could even be that both are correct: the heros found the Revenge in Garnott and may have travelled to Gafford before the start of the campaign.

The next FAQ will answer that, it´s in the proposal doc.

@Corbon:

Thanks for the answers to the questions we had. I feel like a sap for the threat-boosted dice in a dungeon now--the header over that section is extremely clear. I also found where heroes regain fatigue when they return to the overland map in Road to Legend FAQ (p13). The last mistake we made I caught today--two of their chests had no treasure cards in them, so they should have gotten 2 more XP!

I've noticed from your posts that I've read that you don't really seem to like the Advanced Campaigns (either of them) at all. We had a really great time, and I guess we'll just find out for ourselves if everything is quite as "useless" and "impossible" as you stated. They each drew three heroes and kept one of them--and I'm pretty sure Dean took **** McGee because he liked her power, not because a 38 year old man wanted to stare at her boobs.

Maybe the melee characters will have a harder time in encounters; maybe they won't. I don't get XP for standing around, and very few of my ranged options can hurt the melee characters. I'm always frustrated with classifying game elements as "Best" and "Useless" with no middle ground. Holy Aura is only one damage--but I can't avoid it, and while it doesn't scale, neither do the other skills, so who cares? We haven't done a sea encounter, and maybe the next entry will be me ranting about how impossible Sea of Blood is. But I'd like to think I can at least imagine what it will be like, and I'm not picturing the doom and gloom you're suggesting.

Again, thanks for the answers, I really appreciate them.

@Parathion:

That's exactly what we decided--they found the boat Garnott and travelled to Gafford (to stock up on Potions!).

If you want two additional minor glitches pointed out:

- The Avatar is not picked randomly - the OL gets to pick his best option after seeing the hero party. But luck was in your favor, since Cpt. Bones seems to be one of the stronger Avatars

- The Siren may have started to siege right away, in the same week she was purchased.

Oh I see that now. Well when we start the next session I'll just drop a siege token on the binding there. As far as Captain Bones goes, I really didn't care which one I started with so I picked one at random.

Corbon said:

This

It is not that Corbon hates the AC, I don't think he does at all, in fact I think he prefers the AC to vanilla. It is that most people just don't know what they are doing, they tend to fail at the AC easily.

I would also suggest someone else besides the most experienced player (you), play as the OL. This will help balance out things a little bit and help give the heroes the much needed edge for SoB. This way it will be more fun for all. I bet after 3-5 dungeons your players will want to stop playing.

@duhtch:

Understand that I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, but you're just giving me a sentence that says SoB is **** and we should find a guy with a styrofoam helmet to OL so we have a chance at fun. Doesn't that seem a little extreme? I mean, exactly how long do you think it takes to be "experienced" at Descent? What if you've been playing tabletop/board/roleplaying games since you were six?

What makes SoB so horrible? We're doing SoB because RtL is out of print and I'm not paying $100 on EBay for it.

@pw

ive noticed by switching it to garnott it does help (though only a little) for the players. they have access to 4 dungeons at the start instead of two, and two extra cities (one week and two weeks away.) it costs them 100 less for traits (if they choose to go that route, for whatever silly reason at the start.) and a slew of no encounter trails if they choose. the biggest downside is the horrible market and lack of alchemists. after weighing both spots out, my players decided to go with garnott until an official ruling comes out.

basicly, i let them choose which is to be their homeport. toying around the idea of letting them choose anywhere (but dallok) as a home port at the start of a SoB AC, just to see if it helps them or not (ig they can sail to gafford after finding it in garnott, why not orris or another place.)

@all

i also made a house rule that they could not have port at Dallak for the sole reason that its landlocked.

thinking about creating an upgrade system for towns in SoB to let the players fix the values of some of them, but it would be a waste for players to upgrade each town individually, so maybe a global upgrade system? something like...

during a train action the players may puchase an upgrade (at the shipyard) that increases the market value, the alchemist value, the temple value, or the defense value of all cities by 1 for 1000 gold and 10xp at copper, 1500 gold and 20xp at silver, 2000gold and 30 xp at gold. this upgrade may only be purchased once per campaign level.

Eugee said:

so the friends you play with wear styrofoam helmets? i am saying that the game goes much smoother with the most experienced descent player to be on the hero team, especially if descent is new to other players. in fact, just because you have experience in other games doesn't mean you are good at descent, oftentimes it means the opposite, as "experienced gamers" will often not play by the rules because things don't make sense to them.

being experienced at descent would have a good understanding of the rules and have played the AC understanding more than just how dungeons work. what makes SoB so horrible is that it was poorly tested before it went out, coupled with poorly worded rules. it added many new and different mechanics that just does not work well. i love the ideas, but again, very poor testing.

that is perfectly fine for you and your group to play SoB. just understand that having an experienced OL far outweighs an experienced hero group, especially in SoB. i can tell your group is new to descent just by their hero group composition. i mean seriously red scorpion? they clearly didn't do any research before the 50+ hour game they were about to play. oh how about 2 melee characters in a sea based game where they sink in water, gg... if you were a part of the hero party, you might have had the chance to help guide your friends to choose a melee/ranged/magic and runner, then advised them to not be an idiot and choose a hero because they are half naked/a supposed "cool" ability that helps her heal, besides the fact that she can't kill anything.

Eugee said:

Actually I love them. I have several hundred hours logged playing them - 4 completed campaigns of RtL (and several incomplete), 2 completed SoB campaigns (and several incomplete).

But I recognise their flaws. I actually think RtL is a very tightly balanced game - it seems wildly imbalanced at times and is if you don't play efficiently, but if both sides play efficiently it can go either way and be extremely close with the whole campaign hinging on one or two dies rolls (in a good way, signalling it was very close and could have had a different result). But it is horribly unforgiving to noobs. These are Advanced campaigns, and in order to get a good experience out of them it helps a lot if you understand the game well and are capable of making good choices.
SoB however is just a disaster. FFG clearly did minimal, if any, playtesting and several features clearly never hit the playtest table at all (nor had anyone conversant with the game check them) as they simply don't have sufficient rules to adequately play them. Or maps that are horribly flawed (like the one with a sideways current and rocks either side of the vessel so that the heroes must get lucky current rolls or the revenge will sink on the rocks, or the one with a sandbar underneath a starting vessel location). Add to the technical screwups, the game balance is horribly flawed due to the Lt mechanisms.
But it can still be a fun journey, through most of the game, as long as you a) aren't treating it as a competitive game (which is is supposed to be, but fails at due to the above flaws) and b ) understand that you will just have to make stuff up as you go along sometimes because the rules don't work or aren't adequate, and people will have differing ideas on what to do.
We have put a lot of work into preparing a detailed document to help FFG fix the SoB problems, and hopefully it will have nearly all the flaws ironed out in the next FAQ, but we don't know when that will happen on FFG's side.

Eugee said:

Her power is only one aspect. He should have looked at her stats, CT value, trait dice distribution and skill distribution (though the last is less important in ACs).
A very clever player (Antistone), who is an outstanding analyst and mathematician/statistician, designed a spreadsheet to build new heroes. He built costs in for every factor, with scaling costs for increasing score etc and basing most of the 'ability' costs from a ranking poll so that he combined multiple assessments into their costs. You can find it on BGG, under HeroGen v2.X
The 'points' value for FFG heroes ranged from 282 to 439, with the majority grouped between 330 and 400, with an average score of 360.
Red Scorpion is bottom, on 282, followed by Ispher on 292 then a bog jump up to Sahla on 319. In other words, Red Scorpion is by a wide magin the worst hero, with only Ispher anywhere near her at the bottom end of the table.

Eugee said:

Actually you can get XP for 'standing around' in encounters, most encounters will feature cannons (which your melee heroes are hopeless with), and your ranged options will quickly gain the ability to deal significant damage to even the tough melee heroes. There is no maybe here. Unless the OL actively plays badly to give the heroes some fun, melee characters are very weak in encounters. You need one, to man the wheel effectively, but the other then has no useful task compared to a ranged or magic character.

Eugee said:

Frustrated or not, it happens to be true. There is no attempt to balance the heroes, skills, or even monsters against themselves, so some things simply are 'good' and some things simply are 'bad'. That is just a fact of life.
WRT Holy Aura, it is trivially easy for you to avoid it 95+% of the time - just don't move next to that character. But even if you ignore it completely and take the damage, so what? One damage makes no difference to a monster 99% of the time - it will either die in one attack, or not, and the amount of times one damage makes a difference to that (that the hero couldn't have made by adding another dice with fatigue) is negligible. Put it this way - how often did you as OL find Holy Aura changing your turn plan or killing a monster of yours? I'm willing to bet not once, once you realised how little that extra wound matters. It is a passive ability which does nothing on the heroes turn and nothing that the OL cares about on his turn either.

Eugee said:

No - you are extrapolating out his comment to an extreme, not taking it at face value.
It is simply best the the most experienced player plays on the hero side, not the OL side. It is not required that the OL player be a dunce (I assume thats what you mean by styrofoam helmet), just that the most experienced player or best analyst play for the heroes. This is for two reasons. The first is that the heroes are the ones that drive the campaign engine. All the decisions about where to go, when to flee, etc etc are made by the heroes. The OL is generally reactive, though he may have proactive reactions (acting to put pressure on the heroes to try and change their choices). The second is that the learning curve is much steeper for the heroes. They generally pay much higher prices for their errors than the OL does.
For these two reasons, it is best that the most experienced player, or most analytical, play on the heroes side rather than the OLs side.

And 'experienced' in Descent means understands the game options - what heroes can do, what skills are good and bad, how well things combine, what should be feared, which upgrades help most when etc etc. A lifetime of gaming can help you pick these things up faster , but only actual Descent experience is useful for acquiring them (or a very high level of analytical capability) - or you can do a bit of research and borrow knowledge from other people.

Corbon said:

When coupled with a Sparks of Pain feat card, Holy Aura may make a character completely invulnerable against about any Copper Melee spawn for a turn - still highly situational, and finally as worthless with upgraded monsters as you stated.

Ha! Actually, Parathion, it's even more worthless than that–– of all copper melee monsters spawnable from the basic overlord deck (with expansions), it will only protect you from 2 copper– beastmen and kobolds, which still leaves razorwings, ferroxes, and blood apes. Nor will it protect you from any treachery melee spawn– not stopping ogres or deep elves, and being wholly worthless against wendigos, golems, and trolls.

Ha! Copper Razorwings (non-treachery spawn) have 5 wounds, so they will not be able to attack that hero, as well as the normal Ferrox that comes with the standard spawn card. I forgot about the Blood Apes, true, but they can get around an Aura anyway pretty easily via their Leap attack.

An OL who spawns Melee monsters with treachery cards and doesn´t have the according monster upgrade is ... unusual, though (barring a stray Lone Troll, of course).

i do however appreciate the session report. this i think is what helps the people playing the most. some people play the game incorrectly for years. this way you can bounce things off of others around the world, they can give you good advise, or tell you that you are playing incorrectly. or some people are just mean, mainly me. someone has got to do it though.