Stronghold said:

I think I figured out your problem... you ordered off of Amazon.com

MILLANDSON said:

Sadly, people are stupid, and when they see the name of something they tend to get hung up on it. Like with this example, or assuming that all Guardsmen are Rank 4, and know how to use Bolters because you get the weapon training talent at that level.

Badlapje said:

FFG just arne't making any sense.

And i think it very likely the RT books, such as HA, have been pushed backs because they now have Black Crusade to promote and release so that, at the very least, has to be given some measure of precedence.

More info on Xenos could have been put in Edge of the Abyss by removing the adventure within.

Was it really necessary? I'm sure it's a very good adventure, but it's really of no use. If you don't know how to play the game in terms of running creating adventures by that point then that one won't help you.

This haphazard scattershot approach is crazy.

signoftheserpent said:

So... you expect people to create their own adventures, but expect someone else to do all the work and provide all the NPCs you'll ever need for those "self-created" adventures? Bit of a double standard, really... if someone hasn't figured out how to create their own NPCs, how can they be expected to create adventures?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I didn't ask FFG to provide me with NPC's. NPCs are not the same thing as stats for antagonists; a list of traits and stats for Eldar and eldar equiopment, for example, is not the same as me using them to create a specific Eldar npc.

The rules don't give you information on how to create Eldar. They are not the same as the characters you can create in the rules so in order to represent them accurately we need the tools to do so, however complex or not those might be.

I really do not understand why people defend these things. Do you actively protest against the existence of such things? If so, why bother buying the game at all. Why not just make up your own 40k rogue trader rules and then everything will be to your standard. Arguing that people, buying a professionally produced rpg, should not expect that rpg line to cover all the things in the license is insane.

And you have misused the word expect. I don't expect. I merely suggested.

Actually I thought that adventure was fun. Also I enjoy reading those just to get a feeling for the game. Hm.

Am I the only one who's rather happy with the choices FFG makes? If you're really serious about 40K it doesn't hurt to own all the "monster manuals", since they're all different. CA is all about horror/mystery, MotX about entire armies and things to pulverise, I imagine XC will focus on Xenos you can deal with in the stricter sense. I'd appreciate more fluff about Eldar society, how they webways work and what they want.

That and the Achilus Assault will be definite buys for me.

You misunderstand me. As i said before: i'm very happy with the 40k universe and the roleplaying game. I'm not trying to entirely trash the merits of what FFG has done. They have done a very big amount of work and deserve to be lauded for that.

However: there are a number of very obvious mistakes and malpractices which honestly should not be occuring. Definitely not in that big a number. I understand that creating a RPG and then keeping the material coming is hard. I understand that there are fans out there who want to play a SM as much as there are who want to play an Inquisitor, Acolyte or RT. But by glossing over mistakes/malpractices and covering it with the mantle of love you are essentially giving them the sign that it's ok to continue as they are and that nothing is amiss. The arguments given by many people are essentially: "if you don't like it do it better yourself". This is not a constructive way to argue anything. It won't lead to a good analysis of the problem (i can be wrong in my assessment after all, or to harsh), and it definitely won't help those at FFG to know what the community finds to be the biggest problem so they can attempt to resolve that first.

I point out these things because i seriously hope that somebody at FFG will read these comments and decide to tackle the problems - one at a time. I'd rather not see another WoTC debacle where all the things i've bought are essentially wasted when they do decide to revamp the system leading to me switching companies (Paizo's pathfinder) in order to bloody well keep playing in the universe i came to discover and love.

Any smart company will keep a good eye on what the community at large (their customer base after all) complains about. I've dabbled in customer relations & have a couple of friends working in it professionally, as the old adage goes (not sure if i translated it right): "those who complain give you the opportunity to rectify the problem, those who don't complain have already walked out". We added to that that those who complain are more often then not the most loyal customers ... others just don't give a rat's ass and go to another company to get what they want. Being all defensive and denying or minimising the problem = they'll not feel taken serious and walk.

Badlapje said:

However it should be noted that the current system has been proven to work. Proven by sales numbers and overall game success. The same system has been used since Dark Heresy came out under Black Industries. So for a few years now the current "style" has been used. While FFG is a game company, its still a company. Companies need to make money. To think that there are not bean-counters and people tracking this stuff is insane. If the majority of people were upset at the current system to the point that they were having sales issues; then changes would have already been made.

Remember that the small fraction of people who play these games actually post on the forums. Also, people who do post tend to be quite vocal of their opinions. So while on this forum it may seem that there are an equal amount of upset people to not; I've never seen this in real life. With our local game store and its patrons I hear the same thing about the FFG products. In that, they are fun and well done, but a bit pricey. Some people flat out don't like the system itself, which is fine. I personally think the d20 system is garbage. Everybody has their opinions of course. There are things that I would have done different if I was the game producer of whatever products, sure. You aren't going to please everybody. However it seems FFG is pleasing the majority, so I'm sure they will stick with it.

I agree with Badlapje in principle, though not in detail. However, MotX is definitely one the weaker volumes of the franchise, and one I'm not going to acquire anytime soon. I liked CA better.

And yet, there are worse books. The Inquisitor's Handbook for example. I'd applaud a complete rework of that one.

signoftheserpent said:

Thing is, I like the way the 40kRPs are produced. If I didn't, I wouldn't continue to be a part of it.

I'm not arguing against the inclusion of anything. I'm arguing against your assumptions - which are the same assumptions as always - that a failure to immediately produce piles and piles of statlines for every concievable troop type and weapon and vehicle in the wargame makes the entire endeavour an irredeemable failure.

Here's the thing... the 40k universe is huge . The amount of material out there under the broad banner of "Warhammer 40,000" is colossal, and everybody disagrees as to which parts are more important, more valid or simply better than others. It is literally impossible to please everyone with the RPGs, because everyone has different expectations. So FFG and the freelancers working for it on the 40kRPGs produce what we can, with the acknowledgement that everyone wants something different out of the games and we can't just cater for the loudest voice on the forums. It takes time, money and effort to produce these books, and there is a limited amount of all three things to go around, and just because you regard something as unimportant does not mean that everyone does. If everyone were to drop everything and start working right this second on a huge and comprehensive book of all the 'potential enemies' in the 40k universe (not just aliens, because that overlooks the people who want to fight chaos cultists and chaos marines and daemons, and the people who'll be clashing with other Imperial forces... so 'potential enemies' covers pretty much everything, then that book still wouldn't be out for almost a year (assuming no issues along the way). A book that size, to be done at a reasonable speed, would probably take a dozen writers about six weeks to write, not counting any revisions that need to be made... and that's beyond all the preliminary work done before we can start, and the work of all the artists, the playtesting, editors, layouts... and then months at the printers and then the long wait until it gets back from the printers. And while the book's being written, those writers aren't working on anything else for you - things that other people may want, like player options or adventures or background-centric books (or, in the case of Rogue Trader, starships). And, because getting all that done is expensive, there's only so many books that can be developed within a given year.

It's all very easy to call out for certain things. It's much, much harder to actually develop those nebulous concepts into a finished product. As far as I'm concerned, the part that I'm involved in, the writing... that's the easy bit. Putting down a collection of words and numbers to represent an enemy or a weapon or a situation... that takes a bit of imagination, a bit of common sense and a bit of effort, and not much more. Turning that into a book... well, it's several steps from "collection of several word documents" to "full-colour hardback sourcebook".

Badlapje said:

Allow me to interject. Based on my experience working in various sh*tty aspects of retail over a total of 6 years, your Old Adage fails to recognize one very significant detail.... Some people just want to complain!

And there doesn't have to be anything 'wrong' for people to complain, it can just be something they don't like (like Sign's complaints about how FFG had the gall to make Mark of the Xenos only half about Xenos), personal preference. Or it can be nothing at all but what they've managed to blow out of proportion, in their head.

Dok Martin said:

Wow, I've never heard anybody who really disliked the Inquisitor's Handbook. I always thought it was one of the better sourcebooks.

Oh. I completely forgot Dark Heresy: Creatures Anathema. LOTS of nice xenos in there. LOTS! And if its just a chaos beast just copy it, change th ename and fiddle with it a bit - wave your hands and its a new xenos species.

kenshin138 said:

Very twisted that one. Make no mistake, the material is excellent. But the book itself is a disaster. It's a mixture of background and arsenal book, and completely chaotic. The (highly useful) section about Fenksworld is buried between SP guns and a weapon table! There are texts hidden in this book and I keep thinking "damnit! I know it somewhere in here".

Plain horrible. Into The Storm and Rites of Battle are completely different, thank the Emperor.

I'd agree it needs a re-print ONLY to fix the horrible content placement.

Dok Martin said:

That'd be because that was the last book made by Black Industries (not FFG) and was a mish-mash of what was formerly going to be 2 different books - one for the equipment and the like, and the other for extra character bits and pieces.

You can't really hold a book written, put together and printed by a separate company against FFG, especially since the 2 examples you've stated were the ones actually made by FFG.

MILLANDSON said:

Technically, it was only the last book that Black Industries released. The last book that Black Industries developed was Disciples of the Dark Gods, which had been released to playtesters the same day that BI announced that they were going to close (causing issues for many of those playtesters, myself included at the time, as the feedback from several groups somehow vanished in the transition between Black Industries and Fantasy Flight Games).

MILLANDSON said:

I am aware of that. It's still a bad book.

Dok Martin said:

Yeah, I hate trying to look anything upin that one. If ever a book needed an Index...

--------------------------

I've been surprised by the scarcity of "Monster Manual"-type sourcebooks for the WH40KRP line. It seems to me that they would be a liscense to print money- I think that a thin $25 volume coming out every 6 months or so would sell like hotcakes...

Blood Pact said:

I know full well there are people who just like to complain. But then again, they're not the ones who come up with good arguments. You look at the arguments and you counter those. At present i see the same thing in this thread that i saw in all previous ones that even hinted a complaint of FFG: fanboy coverup.

That bit about MoTX btw, is mine. It's not about it being the gall to make it only half xenos. If they want to do that, they have every right. It's about being honest with your customers about what's in it. I go on amazon, read the title, read the backflap and i assume it's about Xenos. It's about the ancient deathwatch enemies. The name is mark of the xenos. The entire backflap is pretty much a poster about it being for the xenos. And then you go ahead and buy it ... to find out it's only half about xenos. And that's not all that's wrong with the book: it pretty much blows across the board. The only decent part in there is on Tyranids. I've advised my RL friends/cogamers to not buy it for just those reasons. That is the very first time ever i advise against buying a FFG book. Normally i'm the one advising them to buy it. Can't say i'm to happy with the way things are progressing.

This and a myriad other problems with the way FFG approaches the publishing of this rpg need to be pointed out so it can be adressed. Like i said: i'm not going to stop buying the product. But i would very much hope that in the future FFG manages to bring out a book that doesn't try to cater to every single enemy the Imperium might face. If you make a Xenos book: then bloody well make it Xenos. Give us usefull info, detail to us the society of the xenos, what it is they want, their tech lvl and noteable items and decent number of xenos adversaries. I'm not asking to make it playable, i'm asking to get all the info i need as a GM in one place. If you want to publish more about the same Xenos race later, fine: but then it's just extra shiny. Not the other half of the basic info (or as it is now: one of the other tenths).

As to the guy who said that the method is working because it sells: given the amount of people that are in love with the 40k universe it'd have been a big shock if it didn't. They can screw it up far worse and it'll still sell. The point is - however - that it could be selling a lot better and that others will move in if they keep this BS up. My brother won't play 40k universe games any more because he's tired of the inconsistencies and so forth that are not explained in a decent way. This rpg line lacks a setting explanation/background. It lacks a bestiary, it lacks coherance between the several lines it has with playable character classes. It lacks spellchecking, it lacks decent playtesting, it lacks decent customer management, it lacks so bloody many things that there is very real cause for concern as to the future it has if those issues don't get adressed. I don't know who controlls the 40k universe and who has the power to decide whether or not another company can take a shot at publishing material. But if there is the possibility for a competitor to get into the market, then i'd be very surprised if there won't be another company doing a better job of it in one-three years time.

Now i know that if you buy all the books that you actually have a very nice resource and that you can adress most of the problems. Sadly though: your run of the mill rpg-fan will never ever do that. I'm the only one in my gaming group who has more then just the CRB for the lines we play (DW and RT) a lot. In fact i have everything of RT and DW (excepting adventures) and i'm working through getting everything of DH. But again: with that behaviour i'm the exception and not the norm. If you play tabletop 40k: then you're set. If you play the rpg: there are large large holes unless you are rich enough to buy most books. The average gamer isn't and won't ever be. While i appreciate those who are pointing me to other books, it does nothing to undermine the value of my argument. It only serves to further strengthen it.

Badlapje said:

The run of the mill RPG fan won't? Really?

I guess all the RPG people I know (about 200, most of which from the university RPG society I used to run, and the rest from 3-4 local groups I've played with), of which the vast majority, when using a system, try to buy the majority of the books for that system, aren't "average" then...

Either way, if you had done any proper research on "Mark of the Xenos", you'd have known it'd cover the main antagonists of the Deathwatch "Jericho Reach" setting - those being Tyranids, Tau and Chaos. I found the FFG articles stating that they contained Chaos as well on the 2nd Google result from searching "Mark of the Xenos" - it's not like they were hiding the fact, and I found it in about 10 seconds. Not being able to find it doesn't mean FFG wasn't being truthful about what it contained, or that they lied, which you have alleged - it means you made an assumption based off an Amazon write-up, and we all know what assumptions make an ass out of...

I don't make a habit out of going online to read all the posts a company makes about it's own products. Mainly because FFG is the first company where that'd actually give me more information that's worthwhile to know. MoTX is also the first one where there wasn't a review already on amazon or dark reign. Lesson learned though: don't trust backflap (pretty much all of it) or title (mark of the Xenos, not Threats in the Jericho Reach) with FFG. Assume that if the book says Xenos, it'll deal with Chaos equally because apparently a 40k book just isn't 40k if there is no chaos in it.

Btw: the DW CRB says that the main targets for the DW in the Reach are the xenos (major species being tau and tyrannid). Not also Chaos. Chaos will still be battled because they're so strong in the reach and foes of the Imperium, but they are no main target of the DW - at least not as a rule... it is a main target for the crusade, but the DW presence was there before the crusade and it'll be there after presumably. Tau aren't detailed decently at all in MoTX. Tyrannids still are sorely lacking. If they'd have used the space from Chaos for Xenos then they both could have been.

Badlapje said:

I dont know if you read more than the lore parts of the book, but if you did you would know that the 3 enemies are all given pretty much equal attention in DW.

Now i havent read motx, but it was quite clear to me that it would contain some Chaos related stuff. And after looking into it on this site it would seem to me that its 1 chapter out of 4, the rest being devoted to Xenos (and also adding more xenos than those allready present).

With that info i have no trouble what so ever seeing and understanding that there are Chaos in that book, its only logical since if there were'nt that would get complaints aswell. This way everyone gets what they want and there is a focus on Xenos.

Now for a Bestiary in RT. There is allready some in the CRB, you can make your own Orcs and Kroot with ItS and if you bought the first Adventure book would have gotten plenty of Eldar stuff. To my knowledge there are more Xenos in some of the other books aswell which should give you a large amount of enemies to toy with. I know a monster manual would be nice but before you have used most of the existing options for more than one time i dont think any complaining is needed.

Badlapje said:

Care to elaborate on the following statements?

1. "it lacks a setting explanation/background" - Last time I checked Dark Heresy included a full chapter about the Calixis Sector, Rogue Trader had a full chapter about the Koronus Expanse, and Deathwatch contained a full chapter about the Jericho Reach. So I'm not sure where you're coming from on this.

2. "It lacks a bestiary" - So, you want a single book like a Monster Manual that just details every adversary. Then have settings books that have no rules in them, just 100% fluff? That is a difference of opinion rather than a "wrong". Some people like the rules broken up within the books. Rather than a large stale book of stats. You can't be faulted for wanting this, just like you can't really fault FFG for the way they do it. Different strokes I guess.

3. "it lacks coherence between the several lines" - You do realize that while there is overlap, its technically three different games right? To a point, Dark Heresy was written by Black Industries. Rogue Trader deviated from this (especially with psychic rules) to clean-up and hopefully make a better game. Would you have rather they kept the same system, even if it was flawed, just so they would be 100% compatible? Deathwatch is totally compatible with Rogue Trader, but does suffer with Dark Heresy for the same reason mentioned above. So, I don't see the problem here really. Sounds like what you really want is for a Dark Heresy 2.0 to come out that brings it in line with the others. I wouldn't mind that all all myself. Though based on what I've seen in the demo adventure of Black Crusade, it looks like some core rules are getting changed again (semi/full auto for example). Changes for the better mind you. So I think there will always be some level of inconsistency as long as the games are setup like they are. Perhaps you'd rather have a WOD style where you had a core 40KRPG rulebook, then a Rogue Trader sourcebook, a Dark Heresy one, etc. All that would do is cause an argument about how FFW was "screwing us" by making us by two books. Right now you can buy a single book and play just fine.

4. "it lacks spellchecking" - I'll admit there are more spelling mistakes then I'd like to see. Can't really say much here. It doesn't but me nearly as much as it does others for some reason, but it is a valid argument.

5. "it lacks decent play testing" - I'll assume you are not, or have never, been part of the playtesting for their games, so how can you really fault this? How do you know whatever it is you don't like was a fault of the designers, and not the testers. Or the testers and not the designers? Or do you just mean that you dislike the product so you want to blame everybody involved since they clearly "don't get it"?

6. "it lacks decent customer management" - err..what do you mean here? You mean FFG doesn't cave to the small handful of people who seem to dislike the entire range and complain about it on their forums? Or that they don't do everything that you think they should do? Have you ever really had a customer service issue you took up with them? Ever talked to one of the employees? Again, I'm not sure what you even mean on this one.

7. As far as another company, you may be waiting for a long time. If you check the inside cover of the books you will find the following people involved in the product: Owen Barnes, Alan Bligh, Andy Hoare, Alan Merrett, Andy Chambers, Ben Counter, etc. You may not recognize some of these names. But to say that FFG is somehow "not doing it right" is hard to stomach when some of the biggest names in 40k are either part of the actual writing, or part of the licensing/approval process. These are people who have lived and breathed 40k. They would simply not be involved if they didn't believe in the product.

So, I don't want to say that you can't have your opinion, thats simply not the case. I am just curious how much of the finger pointing and ranting has really been thought out. Hell even I don't 100% agree with things (I do feel there is too much Chaos in MotX for example) however I have ~$800 worth of FFG product sitting on my bookshelf. I have not been disappointed in any of the purchases. I feel they are all strong products and worth the money. Granted, some are "worth more" than others. Books like Into the Storm, Disciples of the Dark Gods, Edge of the Abyss, etc. I get far more use out of.

Again, not doing it "the way you think it should be" does not equal "doing it wrong". Arguments such as there are too many spelling errors are totally valid. However arguments that by not doing a bestiary, for example, are fine for discussion; but claiming its "wrong" to not do one doesn't hold much weight. Opinions can't really be defended. And I'll state again, FFG is a company, which is designed to make money. The argument that "it only sells because its 40k" may hold weight for Deathwatch (marines after all). But for Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader it doesn't. I know there was quite a bit of internet hurt-feelings when DH came out since it didn't include marines, or elder, or whatever. DH and RT both focus on a part of the 40k lore that really only exists in novels. Part of the 40k universe that only an RPG can really do "right". So while the big 40k logo may get people to pick it up, your average run-of-the-mill tabletop gamer wouldn't buy it solely based on that I don't think. Hopefully though that gamer would give it a chance, and realize there is far more to 40k and the Imperium than Space Marines shooting things.

kenshin138 said:

What Kenshin said, so so much.

Yup, well said, Kenshin!