frogemoth said:

Yes of couse you can just ditch your objects and gold etc, but as you cannot pick them up in your next turn and take them with you, you might just end up loosing it/them anyway. But i fully understand the way you want to play it. mush less discussion around the board

Best regards

Velhart said:

This doesnt make any sence though, and it leaves out the bigger issue. If another player cannot cast Immobility on a Sage that has just used his "draw at the start" ability then why can the Sage still cast "at the start of your turn" spells? It can't work both ways, there's no logic to it if it works that way. The way I see it there are two options here;

1)Play passes to the Sage who immediately uses his "draw a spell at the start of your turn" ability and draws a spell. This ends the "start" of his turn and spells that can only be cast at the start of a players turn are no longer legal.

or

2)Play passes to the Sage who immediately uses his "draw a spell at the start of your turn" ability and draws a spell. From this point until the Sage begins the "Movement" stage of his turn any spells with the "at the start" text can be cast by any player.

With regard to the Wizards comment on ditching:

"Yes of couse you can just ditch your objects and gold etc, but as you cannot pick them up in your next turn and take them with you, you might just end up loosing it/them anyway. But i fully understand the way you want to play it. mush less discussion around the board"

In this senario it would ALWAYS be better to ditch an item rather than let an oponent take it. No matter what the object is it will always be in your favor to just lose (ditch) it than to let another player take it. If one were to play this way the Aqcuisition spell would be useless as would any follower stealing abilities.

(also, I dont mean to hijack this thread, I can start a new one for this if the OP likes.)

Mattousai said:

During the game, you are meant to give other players a chance to react. You're not supposed to rush to the next "phase" to skip over another phase and prevent others from doing anything in that phase. If they're not given the chance and they announce that they would have wanted to, you should roll back.

For example. If player A ends his turn, and Player B (the Sage) was already hovering his hand over the Spell deck and draws his spell, Player C can say, "Wait, I want to cast a Spell myself, and then Player B would have to place the spell back (Shuffle the deck if he already saw the card), so Player C has time to cast his spell.

On the other hand, if Player A ends his turn, and a couple of seconds pass, after which Player B draws a spell, and then announces that he's going to cast it, Player C can no longer cast Immobilize. He had a chance to cast Immobilize before Player B drew the spell, so it's too late now.

I think the same applies when Player B is not a Sage. Other players must have a couple of seconds to announce they're going to cast spells to skip his turn. If they don't do that, and after say 5 seconds, Player B announces that he casts a spell that he had from the last turn, it's too late for other players to skip his turn, as Player B is already busy with his turn.

Mattousai said:

Keep in mind that you can no longer ditch the item that the other player wants to steal from you. If you have only one object, and the opponent lands on you, dropping that object (after he announces attacking you) might be a valid option, but when you have 4 interesting objects, you can't just drop the most interesting one, because then he simply takes the 2nd most interesting one from you. Do you prefer ditching 4 objects and losing 1 gold or life over losing only your most powerful object (assuming you lose combat in the first place) and the opponent gaining that one object?

Mattousai said:

I don't mind at all.

Mattousai said:

We can talk a lot here instead of playing, but for my experience when somebody wants to cast a Spell at the beginning of Turn that makes you lose that Turn (Immobility, Sleep, Time Steal or Lightning Bolt) he casts it immediately after the previous Turn has ended. If he's not so prompt in action, he's perhaps sleepy/drunk/absent-minded and he's not allowed to argue. If the Sage player takes his Spell before the previous player ended his Turn, this is not legal and he has to accept that somebody casts a Spell on him making him miss the whole Turn, including not being allowed to draw the Spell he has taken too soon.

The original question was: Can the Sage cast the Spell he gains at the beginning of his Turn? Yes

We may reformulate:

The Sage's Ability is resolved at the start of his turn and the gained Spell is actually considered to be in Sage's possession at the start of his turn, so that he can cast it.

This implies that others can cast Spells before he draws his Spell and after that everybody can cast "start of turn" Spells.

Mattousai said:

Leaving cards face up on a space is not so clever. Somebody could take them easily and it's better to have a stronger opponent take an Object from you instead of dropping EVERYTHING that could possibly be of interest and perhaps having him choose to take a Life instead.

However, we were just discussing about what it's permitted by the Rules. If you can ditch at any time, it's at any time; the only (unwritten) rule it's that you can't ditch something that has been already chosen, otherwise it becomes a ludicrous game of feints.

We usually not allow to do anything after a combat has been decided by the die roll, but that's a house rule.

CLARIFICATION

To prevent all sorts of problems regarding timing issues, please use the following rules:

"Cast at the start of your turn" - When play passes to your character up until you roll the die for your move.

"Cast on any character at the start of his turn." - When play passes to a character up until he rolls the die for his move.

"Cast at the start of your turn, before you move." - When play passes to your character up until you move your character (including after your die roll).

"Cast when you have just completed your move." - When you have moved your character to a space, but before you encounter the space or another character.

"Cast at the end of your turn." - When you have completed your turn up until play passes to the next player.

"Cast on yourself at any time." - No restrictions other than those on the Spell card.

"Cast at any time on any character" - No restrictions other than those on the Spell card.

These rulings also apply to special abilities printed on Character cards and Adventure cards.

In regards to the Magus, Sage and Warlock:

1) The abilities that give them Spells at the start of their turn, may only be used once per turn.

2) The rule regarding the maximum number of Spells that may be cast during a characters turn, comes into effect after these characters gain their Spells. This is due to the fact that the period of time at the start of a character's turn is considered to be right up until a character rolls a die for his move.

This should help clear up most timing issues in the game.

One final thing regarding a characters turn. If a character wishes to cast the Temporary Change Spell on a character that has just landed on the Chapel or Graveyard, he must do so before the player announces his intention to heal his lives or replenish his fate. The best way to do this is to declare the word "Spellcasting" before casting any Spell in the game. In the above example you need to declare "Spellcasting" before the other player declares his intention to heal lives or replenish fate. This might seem quite difficult to get the timing right, but in practice it is surprisingly easy to do. Always know what your Spells are and be ready to use them at a moments notice!

Ell.

The clarifications confuse me, as they don't match with what you said earlier.

talismanamsilat said:

Weren't you only allowed to cast spells AFTER you used the "Draw spells at the start of your turn" ability? Otherwise, the Sage could cast the one spell he has, and then draw a new spell from his Sage ability. He wouldn't be able to cast it this turn, since he already cast his one spell, but he could cast it during the turn of another player, if the spell permits that.

talismanamsilat said:

Aren't most of the "Cast at the start of another player's turn" cards that prevent that player from taking a turn, which would mean that they could no longer be cast when that player has done anything that could only be done during his own turn, such as drawing a card as the Sage or casting a spell that can only be cast during your own turn?

Sage Special Ability:

If you do not have any Spells at the start of your turn, you may gain 1 Spell.

Basic Rule:

The maximum number of Spells a character may cast during his turn is equal to the number of Spells he had at the start of that turn.

The Special Ability is at a variance with the basic rule (regarding timing in this particular issue), so the Special Ability overrides the rule. You gain 1 Spell then apply the rule.

Ell.

Thels said:

If the Sage has one Spell at the start of his Turn, he can't use his ability to draw a Spell.

He can't cast it, claim he has no Spells and draw another.

Thels said:

In the rare case of an Ability that works at the start of the Turn, like the Sage's, Elliott said that if this ability is used the Turn is taking place and cannot be cancelled by a Spell anymore (you have to cast before he draws a Spell). For any other situation, this clarification works fine.

I notice that this conversation will never end, until everybody understands that in Talisman you read the card text and follow it, along with the few basic rules explained in the Rulebook. This is not a game where rules have to cover all situations, were phases have to be split to the point that every little piece get's its appropriate timespan. The FFG Talisman and Elliott's efforts were oriented to avoid exceptions were possible and in fact there are few; as for the playing problems, I think there are none.

talismanamsilat said:

This is very true! I think the reasons why people dig deep into Spell timing are:

1) they forget to use Spells when appropriate and want a second chance

2) they always want to cast a Spell with the maximum effect

Why not follow what it says on the card "Cast at the start of another characters turn" and be done with it?

These rules all seem very arbitrary to me, and all they do is create more and more exceptions. If the Sage's turn is in progress once he has drawn a spell and cannot be the target of Immobility then it takes only the smallest logical jump to make a dozen assumptions based on that precedent. For example, it's not a stretch to say that the "draw a spell if you don’t have one ability" is activated at the start of every single turn but only goes into affect is the Sage doesn’t have a spell. In this scenario the Sage can never be the target of Immobility, or what if I touch a dice the moment play passes to me, am I safe?

We can even leave the ability out and still have contradictions; Play passes to the Warrior and the player picks his nose, then checks his spells, then rereads the text on his weapon. Can he no longer be the target of Immobility because of the 30 seconds that has passed in the Warriors turn? If Immobility can only be cast when it makes the character loose the entirety of their turn it needs to be cast in the exact instant that play passes to that character, which is impossible.

(I don’t play this way, but my friends like to argue and there is no way we could finish a game with these rules.)

You should handle that by feel to my opinion.

At any time where it's possible to intervene, such as the very start of your turn, other players should get a chance to cast a spell. So you cannot rush to grab and roll the dice just to negate others from casting Immobilization on you. Talisman is not a game of reflexes. IMHO, if you try to rush past opportunities, and other players announce that they want to do something, you should roll back and let them cast their spell.

Other than that, you should cast spells that prevent another player from taking their turn before a player does anything. So you can't just idly sit and wait what a player does, watch him grab the die, watch the result, count out where he can land and THEN decide to interrupt his turn. You should do so before he rolled the dice, if given the chance.

As for the discussion about the details, I've kinda dropped it, as it was getting down to how to best formulate it, rather than the actual rules. We seemed to be on the same wavelength there.

I'm still curious about the Cursed Glade matter, but maybe I should just raise a separate thread focused on specific questions, rather than grab a bunch of them together.

Oh, btw, anyhow know what those points indicate under everyone's name?

I have a small question, about the warlock's apprentice

it says that if you have already a warlock quest, you may take another turn after this one.

I assume that it means that you get a extra turn?

card text feels a bit weird to me..

Velhart said:

Good but, why are you posting in this thread?

The text is a little bit different from the 3-4 result oj the Library on the Dungeon board, but meaning is the same. You take another Turn immediately after the Turn when you encountered the apprentice and had already an active Quest.

The_Warlock said:

Do you only get a extra turn after you encounter him?

I was just thinking that as long as you have already a warlock quest, you get a extra turn..

PS: i just posted it in this topic, so i don't have to make a new topic about it

Velhart said:

The_Warlock said:

Good but, why are you posting in this thread?

The text is a little bit different from the 3-4 result oj the Library on the Dungeon board, but meaning is the same. You take another Turn immediately after the Turn when you encountered the apprentice and had already an active Quest.

Do you only get a extra turn after you encounter him?

I was just thinking that as long as you have already a warlock quest, you get a extra turn..

PS: i just posted it in this topic, so i don't have to make a new topic about it

You get an extra turn if you encounter him and ALREADY have a Warlock Quest. If not, you may take a quest from the deck but no extra turn in that case.

If you had posted elsewhere it could have been easily retrieved as a discussion. Even with the new search engine, it's not easy to find a specific thread in these forums. I don't want to be a pain in the neck, but this way we're losing a lot of clarifications given by players and also official answers by Elliott or John Goodenough.