Alright, so a debate has come up in a game I'm in. In order to activate a force weapon's abilities, you have to manifest the power. There's no argument there. The argument has come up about what talents and such apply to the Opposed WP Test. So here's the jist of it. What applies to the Opposed WP test for force weapons?

Resistance (Psychic Powers)

Strong Minded

Mental Fortress

Hexagrammatic Wards

other various talents, gear, mechanics I can't come up with at the moment.

My argument is that each of these talents/pieces of kit, each describe what exactly they affect. Some are made for non-physical attacks, others are for physical attacks. I can't see all of them applying to it, because you're not making a resistance test, it's an Opposed Test. What's the verdict on this?

Let's get this discussion started then, shall we?

The talent Resistance reads: "You gain a +10 when making a test to resist or avoid the object of your resistance."

The force sword's "Killing Will" ability is treated as a Psychic power. On a success, the wielder and the victim make an opposed WP test.

The big question is, would the victim gain +10 to that test? I say yes, the test is pretty much the guy resisting his brain being fried.

The resistance talent says: when making a test to resist or avoid- whether its an opposed test, a single test, a WP test, a Toughness test, it really doesn't matter. As long as its a test.

A more generous interpretation would even give a player a +10 on a doge test to avoid a Fireball. But that's another discussion for another day.

For now, the big question is, does resistance psychic power give a +10 to the Victim's WP test? What do you guys think?

Bear in mind, the psy-channeling ability of Force Weapons are NOT psychic powers. It more like a fluff mechanic to show that fledgeling psykers are still noobs and have a chance to cause psychic phenominon. Thats why channeling power into the blade is treated as a psy-power with a threshold of 6.

If you look at ascended characters, they can simply activate the ability with a fettered power test and not risk any psycic phenominon at all, so theres no point in even rolling. Also, look at the description of force weapons in the "Daemon Hunter" book. Its the same description in Inqisitor's Handbook but "minus" the power threshold of 6, cuz Grey Knights already have the "fettered, unfettered, & push" abilities of ascended psykers (and worrying about activating the psy-channeling ability of the force weapons is beneath them).

Lastly, you can activate the psy-channeling ability of force weapons more than once per round, whereas the same isn't true for actual psy-powers.

However, I have to agree with Saldre's reasoning. He made a good arguement with "The big question is, would the victim gain +10 to that test? I say yes, the test is pretty much the guy resisting his brain being fried." So yes, I think resistance (psychic powers) should work in the opposed WP test.

Strong Minded, I have to say no. Its a Willpower test, not an opposed Willpower test. Your trying to win with a certain number of degrees of success not just a straight willpower test.

Tough call on Mental Fortress. I think it was intended to make invading your mind via telepathy, or the like, a dangerous undertaking, but the way it is written it seems to work with "any" psychic power that targets you. Also, while I don't think the use of a force blade is a psychic-power, it could be considered a psychic attack. One could argue that charging the force weapon with mental energy and hitting someone with it creates a "psychic connection" between the target & attacker that can trigger the Mental Fortress.

And that is really what it comes down to however. What is intended...and what is mechanics. The "Killing Force" of a Force Weapon isn't an actual power. Why you say? For a few reasons. It's not gained when you take Psy Rating for one. Another is that it has no stat line. There is no entry that says:

Killing Force

Threshold: 6

Focus Time:

Sustain:

Range:

And then the fluff and mechanical effects. It is not a power. Let me point out a very important distinction. It does NOT say that it is a power. On pg. 188 of the IH it specifically states that it is "treated" as a power with a Threshold 6. That is for the purposes of manifesting the Killing Force. However, it is NOT a power. It is also important to note that you are not targeting the person with this "Killing Force." Therefore abilities that state "When targeted" do not apply...i.e. Mental Fortress.

You don't get to pick when something that's "Treated as a power" becomes one or doesn't- the force weapon ability would be hindered by an untouchable's aura, and it wouldn't affect untouchables. It doesn't matter that its not an actual power, because its "treated as a power" the same way some players are "treated as psykers" even though they aren't.

Not to mention the second line, about not targeting a person, doesn't work either: its an opposed test agaisnt someone because you picked them as your target. It would have been moot to repeat that in the entry. But your right, Mental Fortress would be a lot more up for interpretation then Resistance (Psychic powers), whose purpose is to specifically resist psychic powers by giving you a bonus to A test. Which the Killing Will power is treated as.

Uh huh, so gentleman what exactly are your stances on these talents where force-weapons are concerned?

Oh, Im sorry, I haven't mentioned Hexagramic wards at all. Well now I look at it like this; Hexagramic wards is all about blunting damage from psychic sources. So I would say the protected target should definitely get the +20 bonus to his opposed will power test as the force weapon ability seems like a direct psychic attack (or manipulation) in my opinion, but no doubling armor points since the force weapon's ability ignores armor and toughness anyhow.

Brolthemighty said:

I see this effect as kind of similar to a psychic "electro" shock transmitted by a connection between the two guys wills. Thus the opposed WP test and the ability of the recipent to push this psychic "brain frying" energy back.

* Resistance (Psychic Powers): Yes, helps with +10% to the opposed check.

* Strong Minded: No, its physical.

* Mental Fortress: Yes, attacking Psyker must test.

* Hex Wards: Yes. Gives it´s +20%.

I am not unsure about what helps against it. But what i got unsure about it after reading it again now is if activating the ability of the Force Weapon counts to the "Only 1 Power per round"-Rule.

What Quartermus said about the Force Weapons in "Daemon Hunter" gives a strong hint that it isnt under this restriction. In which context is it written there exactly?

This is a little off topic, but here;

In the Daemon Hunter book, under the heading " Nemesis Force Weapons " the description is exactly the same as the one in the IH (including activating the psy-channeling ability as a free action) with the exception of not having the phrase "treat this effect as a power with a threshold of 6".

One last thing, if you were to limit the force weapon's psy-channeling ability to "once per turn" on the basis that it's considered a psychic power, then by that logic force weaponry would be useless all together since the rules don't allow you to make attacks and use a psychic power in the same round.

Look, I think the fact is we are waaay overthinking this. To sum up my points

1.) The force weapon's psy-channeling ability is NOT a psychic power in my opinion.

2.) Resistance (Psychic Powers) should work against force weapons because fluff-wise the talent is about resisting psy based attacks (i.e. force weapon's special ability)

3.) Mental Fortress. Fluff-wise this may work, game mechanics-wise its a nightmare and makes it painfully difficult to resolve one attack with a force weapon let alone two or three attaks (assuming lightning attack or furious assualt). God help you if someone throws Assassin Strike into the mix. Its just too much to deal with between the WeaponSkill, Dodge, Damage, Power Threshold and Opposed WillPower rolls. Hell, what happens if someone makes their WillPower Test, but still needs 2 degrees of success to not take damage. Does Mental Fortress give them a re-roll then. No, toooo muuuuch craaaap.

4.) Hexagramic Wards. As anti-psy armor, its supposed to blunt psy-based damage and it does so by appling the +20 bonus towards the opposed willpower tests (thats 2d10 less damage right there).

I don't feel it unreasonable to state that Force Weapon usage in the Tabletop is also treated, in all ways, as a power. It cannot violate the "no more than 1 power at a time" rule without a special rule allowing it to be so.

Also, a free-action power, even if an "attack move", wouldn't violate the "no two of the same action" clause in my opinion, at least when combining the attack action needed to hit the target with the free-action activation of the Force weapon's true power... but that's definitely a GM interpretation thing.

Personally, I would treat it as a power in all regards, both for resistance and for manifesting purposes.

Quartermus said:

Do you realize 1) and 2) are in contradiction from your point of view?

Seriously, though, it is not a Psychic Power, it is treated as one for all we know, so you have to think of it as a Psychic Power, just with special rules.

To me, anything that helps resisting or countering a psychic attack works against the channeling through a Force Weapon. Simple, clear, and applicable.

The terrible case of Lightning Attack + Assassin's Strike + Dodge + Mental Fortress is just this, a borderline case. And don't forget, you can only channel through a Force Weapon once a turn (it has been clarified for Deathwatch, so I think it's fair to consider it clarified here, too), so Lightning Attack only adds two attacks.

So pretty much, at ascension level play (and by dent Deathwatch) Force Weapons are near useless unless you actually have Unnatural Willpower....which is what everyone complains about. I mean, you take anyone normal acolyte, let alone at ascension, and they're likely to have a 30-40 WP easy. Now, add in the talents and hex wards....and you've got a 70 WP for the purpose of the Opposed test. Really? You see that as the right interpretation?

Well they've spent XP and monies to ward themselves off Psychic Powers. You see a guy walking along in Hexagramatic Wards, you don't attack him with a Force Sword, you just throw bigger rocks at him 'tll he dies, or something like that.

Plus it somehow prevents the Templar Calix Primaris from being completely unavoidably silly, which I like mind you.

You may see it as a "nerf", but Psykers have so much cool things to do, I don't see why they should absolutely stick to Force Weapons awesomeness.

Plus not everyone gets all the "Resistance (Psychic Powers)" (and the others) Talents. I mean, if your GM only sends NPCs who have the full combination of it against you, then maybe your Psyker is OP, or the GM is breaking down, or someone has misunderstood something...

But as far as I'm concerned, very few NPCs would have Resistance + Strong Minded + Mental Fortress + the Wards...Maybe only Big Bad Bosses who just need to not be down in one strike.

So far, what's been presented has been given as "this is my interpretation." Which, to me, reveals a lock of official rulings. Which, if the case, then it must all be broken down on both sides. Now, obviously, I am the minority here, in thinking that not all of them should work against a force weapon.

So, first there's the Resistance Talent. Unfortunately, for me that is, it is SO vaguely worded, that yeah...it pretty much works against anything having anything to do being psychic. Boo for me.

Strong Minded has been ruled out as working as well, since it doesn't meet it's requirements.

Mental Fortress: Let's look at this one.The second sentence of the talent states...."when you are the target of a psychic attack, you force the psyker to make a Willpower Test." Okay, so, the prerequisite is that you are the target of a psychic attack. Emphasis mine.

Now let's look at the wording under force weapons. "In addition to normal Damage, whenever a psyker damages an opponent, he or she may, as a Free Action, channel psychic force and killing will into the blade . Treat this effect as a power with a Threshold 6. On a success, the wielder and the victim make Opposed WP Tests." Again, emphasis mine.

So, we have Mental Fortress, that requires the person to be targeted....but a force weapon's ability does not target the person being attacked. It is channeled through the weapon. If we are to treat this like every other power, let's do so. In all other powers that target someone, it specifies target. A force weapon's ability does not. It's ability's effect is treated as a power, for the purpose of manifesting it. In nowhere in it's text does it state target....because the ability is not targeting a person. If we must interpret the wording, as everyone is saying we should, it would be interpreted that the ability is channeled through the blade.

But that's just playing with the wording here.

How can you not be the target of a psychic attack channeled through the blade, where the guy has to damage you before? Do you see any target he could hurt with only this attack?

Furthermore, let's consider the fact that one attack with the force sword could damage two opponents (let's say, you manage to hurt to guys while dancing around, not realistic, not possible mechanism-wise, but hey, imagination and all that), would you have the opportunity of a psychic attack against both of them? Don't think so.

You channel it through the blade...Maybe. But definitely you have a target: the guy you just hurt.

The guy you just hurt...with the weapon attack, yes. Exactly right. That's the whole point, and basis exactly.

Let me ask it this way, if you were to attack someone, while having manifested Hammerhand. Would Mental fortress apply? No, of course not. But it's effectively the same thing. A separate attack, whose damage is increased through a psychic ability. Even read the two descriptions if you're so stuck on going with fluff and such. Each of them speak about letting the energy of the immaterium flow, Hammerhands through the body, and Force Weapon through the blade.

Difference is, Hammerhand would improve you, make you hit harder...

Don't have the description right now, so I'll be sure to check it out tonight, but I'm quite sure that there is at least a slight difference here.

Alright, so a buddy of mine had an aside convo over the Oots boards message system. Here's the breakdown of what was said. He thought I should share it.

It was over several messages, so I'll try and clip the important parts.

"A force weapon, is NOT a psychic attack, it is a weapon attack, with it's type being...E, I think. The resistance, I'll give. It's a very general terming. However, Mental Fortress sure as hell shouldn't give it's bonus. You're not targeting the person. The Killing FOrce, if it targets anything (although I still say it's not treated in that way, since it has no spell description) would be the weapon. Because that's what you're channeling through. "

"There is no range, no target, and no duration listed. This is not a power. This is simply the psyker channeling warp-stuff through his blade. There is NO target. There is a wielder, and a victim. That is it. All other powers, that are actual powers, state "the target." Because they are targeted. This does not. "

He then refuted with examples of powers that don't specify target. To which I responded...

"Okay, let's use your examples.
Wall of Fire: Wall of fire, is not a directed attack, thus wouldn't benefit from Mental Fortress. Again, resitance due to it's wording would apply.
Incinerate: Actually, incinerate does state target. "Each Round, beyond the first, that you use a Full Action concentrating on the target...." How does that not use the words target?
All of the Divination combat-like abilities: All I'm seeing are precog strike, precog dodge, and preternatural awarenes...all of which are self-buffs, and again, the target is listed in the range: You.
Hammerhand: Again, a self-buff that has target: You.
Psychic Blade: Yet another power that is buffing yourself, this time by creating a weapon that you're wielding, target: You.

None of which would apply to Mental Fortress, because you're not targeting them with a psychic attack. However, psychic blade expressly interacts with Hex Wards. It's spelled out very clearly on that part. "

Then the response again, added other powers as examples, and absurd combinations that would "work" due to the way I've been describing things...

"As far as Holocaust goes, of course there is no target, because it is a blanket AOE. EVERYTHING is affected. As such, it wouldn't be subject to Mental Fortress.

For Zone of Compulsion, I must reference you to the fact that it works as per the Compel psychic power, which does state target.

Now, for the combination of Projection, and Holocaust, I must point out that it states that YOU take the damage. You're not taking damage from the fire of the holocaust (which would be full damage) but from manifesting it. Which you are, regardless of whether you're projecting or not.

Of course, looking at the power Projection, I'm not seeing anywhere in the power that lets you manifest ANY power whatsoever....just the ability to communicate mind to mind. Whereas your body functions as if unconscious. Unless I'm missing an errata or ruling somewhere. "

"What I am saying, is that the Force Weapon ability, does not trigger Mental Fortress, because it does not target the person effected. I haven't said that NOTHING is effected, and NOTHING is done. Again, you're reading in to things that I haven't even implied. And again, I have said absolutely nothing, about warp being wrapped around the blade. I think this is where you're getting fed information that just isn't 40k backstory.

Look at it this way. If this were a true power, that targeted the person, then it would have a range. Whether it was Range: You, or Range: 200m, or whatever. It does not, because it doesn't have a target. It is treated as a power, for the purposes of manifesting a power. Thus the 1/round restriction, and having to hit a 6 Threshold. "

Then a comment was made that "It doesn't target" had become my mantra...

"Well, in regards to Mental Fortress, it is the mantra. In order for Mental Fortress to apply, the person has to be targeted. They're not targeted, thus it doesn't apply.

As far as the range being clear as being touch, please point out where it says this. If it were touch, then I would be required to physically touch the person....which I'm not. So let's look at what is required for it to happen. The psyker is required to make an attack with the force weapon, and physically deal damage. So a weapon attack is made, and must go through and deal at least one point of damage....after T&A are applied. Much like how in order to use a shock weapon, or a poisoned weapon, you must first deal them damage. ”

I'm not a very wordy person. Many times I come up blank when trying to explain my opinions, or how my thought processes work. This is the best that I can do.

If you'll just explain me how it doesn't target your opponent yet you have to make an Opposed Willpower Test...Put the "opposed" in "Opposed Willpower Test", will you?

And I checked, Hammerhand definitely "gives you more biceps", it's not about making Warp energies flow into your opponent to kill him, as opposed to the force weapon...

As for the copypasta from oots forums, it's not really clear, so let's stick to this topic please.

Yeah, I apologize for the nasty cut/past job. It didn't quite turn out as well formatted as I would like.

The Opposed WP is because the victim is affected, yes. But they're not targeted. And since Mental Fortress specifies, when you're targeted, it does not apply.

Please, enlighten me and show me where it says that the victim is targeted, and I will cede the point.

Edit: Wait, are you saying that because the formatting is bad, you're not even going to attempt to read it? Well, as much as that blows, let me paraphrase. The Force Weapon's ability, is treated as a psychic power....yes. But it is important to denote that it says, treated as a psychic power, and not IS a psychic power. Now, why is this? Because the ability requires a Threshold 6 power roll, and is restricted by the 1/turn of using psychic powers. However, that is it.

The Force Weapon ability, is not a spell, and does not target someone. It is an ability that can be used after an attack has hit, and wounded it's victim. If it was a power, it would have an entry of either Range: You, Range: Touch, or Range: xx meters. It has none of these. If you must insist on implying it has a range, which would it be? It's obviously not xx meters. What about Touch? Well, no, because you're not physically touching the person. So the closest you have is Range: You....which several "self-buffing" powers have. However, I would argue that this ability, is none of these. It's not a self-buff, like the Range: You powers....and it's most definitely not the other two. It has no Range entry. It is treated as a psychic power, yes.

If you must draw a parallel to another instance/example in DH, look to the Power Maul, or any other Shock weapon. The weapon must hit, and do damage, for it's ability to trigger. A force weapon simply has another condition, in that you have to manifest at threshold 6.

Brolthemighty said:

If it is treated as a psychic power, it is treated as a psychic power for ALL purposes except where it explicitly states it is NOT treated as a psychic power. This should include anything that involves defenses against psychic powers, so long as that defense makes sense against a force sword's killing will ability.

When it comes to Strong Mind, even though the force sword's ability is a psychic power, it does not qualify (in my opinion) for the other limitations.

When it comes to Mental Fortress, the source of the killing will, channeled though it is through the blade, is clearly the psycher. The target of that killing will's effect, just as clearly, is the person wounded, not the sword itself - the sword CHANNELS it, it isn't the effect itself. There is an opposed Willpower test, implying to me that both the psycher and the wounded enemy are active participants in a mental battle of wills. I see every Fluff reason to support a Mental Fortress level of mental training helping against a the killing will of a psycher being channeled through the blade. I don't see anything definitive in gameplay, nor anything substantial for balance reasons, why Mental Fortress should not apply.

In my opinion, to play as if Mental Fortress has no effect would violate the spirit, if not (necessarily) the laws, of the rules as they are presented and given what they are supposed to represent.

The targeting question brings up one of my own: Is "target" being used in a technical sense, or is it being used to describe a vague set of circumstances that involve one thing affecting another? Can someone provide a game definition of target, or are we just arguing semantics about what we consider a "target"ed effect?

Stormast said:

Those were condensed versions of my earlier and more detailed post.

Where in Deathwatch is it clarified that a force weapon's psy-channeling ability can only be used once per round. I don't like making conclusions in Dark Heresy by basing them off of DeathWatch and Rogue Traders, but I admit sometimes it helps. i

You guys could have settled it ages ago if you'd just sent a message to FFG via the "Rules Questions" link at the bottom of the page to ask the answer from the devs

I've just asked them now, so hopefully they'll be back to me in a day or two.

I had not sent it to FFG, for two reasons. 1.) Hadn't thought of it, and 2.) I had thought that surely this question had come up before, and that there was an official ruling on it. Thank you for sending to FFG, I too will send to FFG.

MILLANDSON said:

Some of us like discussing the peculiarities of a rules issue without appeals to authority, thankyouverymuch.

Their answers are useful, but I'm fairly certain they didn't write the rules for Dark Heresy's force weaponry. They wouldn't actually know the writer's intent in that regard, would they?

Also, while they TEND to be more accurate and consistent than other services (D&D is notorious in that regard, at least it was for 3.5e), they aren't always. Theirs is just an unusually informed opinion, but an opinion all the same.

Still, I am interested in what their response is.

Well, they have then release errata on it, so they have their own views on how it should work, and it is their game now after all

Still, here's Mack's view of it:

My short answer was "Which one does the GM say it is?"

My long answer is: Yes it's a psychic power. They are resisting you with
their own willpower, it's a contest of wills after all as you try to push
them into the warp. So all 4 of those talents would work.

I also pointed out that even attacks that don't "target" a user, might
still be resisted (if appropriate) by these talents. Holocaust, for
instance, doesn't target a character but could be resisted, in my opinion.
Like a rocket fired at the wall your standing in front of, you are still a
target and can dodge.

It's really up to the GM, however, which powers he feels those talents
work against (Strong Will and Mental fortress might be for things he
thinks are about willpower, but not dodging, for instance).

Against a force sword, however, that's definitely a willpower thing... as
you resist getting banished into the warp!