So I'm about to start GMing DH again, after a year or so, and I've come back around to one of my main problems with the system: Full Auto is not only unrealistic but unbalanced. So putting some thought into things, and prowling around here for a bit, I've come up with some ideas that I want to run past the forums to make sure I'm not unbalancing things too far.

-Full auto works as written in Dark Heresy.
-Semiauto works as written in Rogue Trader (can move Ag Bonus meters while shooting but you don't get the +10% to BS). I'm thinking about making the Hip Shooting talent restore the +10% while moving for pistol and basic weapons, but I don't know if that's such a good idea. It fits thematically, but I don't know about balance.
-Single Shot: Shoot as normal. Defender rolls dodge BUT a success doesn't automatically dodge the shot. Instead, Dodge DoS subtract from BS DoS. That way the great shooter making an amazing shot (BS 70 that rolls a 01) doesn't get hosed by the dreg with Ag 20 that happens to roll a 19 (NPCs get reactions in my games). Plus it adds an interesting dynamic to Accurate weapons: a last minute twitch can turn a killing shot through the heart into a simple center of mass shot (but again, it doesn't necessarily mean the shooter missed).

Other house rules I'm considering running by the group are:

Lasguns get a full auto setting (5 shots). I constantly read about guardsmen being given the order "Five rounds rapid!" so it's ridiculous to me that the common lasgun doesn't have an auto setting.

Accurate pistols work like Accurate longarms, only with d5s instead of d10s. Accurate Heavy Weapons (I don't know of any offhand, but I'm pretty open to homebrew gear (it is a galaxy of guns, after all), and I'm pretty certain we'll have a character or two with Trade Armorer and an active imagination.

I'm also considering letting leftover Pen from Energy weapons (Las, Melta, Plasma) reduce Toughness Bonus as well.

Ex scenario: Uriah Steele the Noble is attending the planetary governor's ball to keep an eye on the governor while his cellmates search the mansion for signs of heretical dealings. While at the party, Uriah comes face to face with a member of a rival noble house, Talus Horne. Horne takes exception Uriah's cool greeting and challenges him to a duel on the spot. Space is cleared, and two dueling laspistols are brought forth. Uriah and Talus take their weapons, mark ten paces, turn and fire. Uriah has a BS of 50, T of 30 and Ag of 35, while Talus has a BS of 45, T of 35 and Ag 40. Initiative starts as each turns. Uriah wins initiative, aims, and calls a shot to his opponent's head since Talus isn't wearing any headgear (and a good thing too, since Talus is wearing an armored bodyglove under his party robes). Uriah's player rolls against BS 50 (50+10 for short range+10 for half action aim-20 for called shot) and rolls a 06 for 4 degrees of success. Talus rolls dodge and rolls a 73, failing miserably. Uriah's player rolls damage, 1d10+5 base + 2d5, getting a 9, 3, and 5, making 22 damage. Talus has no armor, and the laspistol deals E damage, so his T is reduced by 4, to 0, and so takes 22 wounds. Since he only has 16, he takes 6 critical damage to the head. Talus lets out a gargling scream and falls to the ground unconscious (1d5=4 fatigue). Uriah smiles a bloodthirsty grin; it's always good to come out on top of one of those arrogant, self-righteous Hornes. The party resumes as the governor's servants carry the unconscious Talus from the chamber, and Uriah becomes the center of attention. But as he looks through his newly-attracted throng of well-wishers and sycophants, he realizes he can't see Governor Tarkus anywhere...

Love most of them. I don't think that your modification to Hip Shooting would be game-breaking, and if it was, well, people paid for it And it makes for more mobile fights (which is good), and gives some love to a hated setting (namely, Semi-Auto), so all's good.

I really like most of your house Rules.

The change in semi-auto makes it a viable option, in contrast to the standart of just being a gimped fire version of full auto only good for weapons who dont have full auto capabilities.

Change in single shot makes it harder to dodge these, which is okay.

Lasguns getting Full Auto 5 are good fromthe fluff and the balance perspective. Standart Lasguns are woefully underpowered compared to ist slugger counterparts in killing ability and in the versatility of ammunition you can load (blessed chargepack? whats that?).

Giving accurate pistols possible bonus d5s is nice. Makes then an alternative to the autopistol everything approach. + good from the fluff side (imho).

Thanks you two.

Actually, reading over the post I realized I never completed the thought about Accurate Heavy Weapons. I was going to say I'm not quite sure what to do with them (if anything), since heavy weapons are already pretty beefy. Really, the only thing I can thing of that would make sense to have Accurate would be the Lascannon or maybe some pattern of autocannon; every other heavy weapon either relies on laying down a huge volley of fire or wouldn't be accurate by nature (huge ball of plasma, jet of burning promethium, etc). I might be persuaded to see a very specially made missile launcher, but only when using krak missiles, but it'd have to be a hell of an argument.

Any comments on the idea of E weapons (las, melta, plasma, flame) using leftover Pen to reduce TB for the attack? Since SP gets cool ammo, and there's a general consensus that Melta/Plasma aren't as strong as they need to be, I thought it'd be a good way to differentiate them (plus a melta . I'm a bit worried about overpowering firebombs and to a lesser extent the Long Las, though. Thoughts?

Well, anyway it could use some playtesting, but I really think it's not overpowered. And plasma and melta ought to be the coolest toys there are, so I'm fine with that (plus the melta's Pen is often wasted, which is sad).

As for accurate heavy weapons, the only case where I would see it happen is with snipers (see in Deathwatch, the heavy snipers). It sounds quite strange to me that a sniper has Accurate but doesn't benefit from the Accurate damage bonus (as it applies to Basic only - and Pistols with your house rule). I wouldn't give the Lascannon any more oomph, it already packs a cool punch, and it is not really "Accurate", it is more "so destructive that as long as the shot is aimed it kills" than "so precise that you can shoot through the weakest parts of the armor etc".

Overall, I see the "Accurate" bonus as that, aiming to a weaker point. Most of the Heavy weapons are about brute force, be it because their projectiles are numerous (like Autocannons) or because the projectile itself is very powerful (Lascannon/Plasma/Melta). So, the only weapon where you would need it is, as I said, a Heavy sniper. I'd say the best thing in that case is to give it the "Accurate" bonus as if it were a Basic weapon (a Heavy sniper only representing the fact that you can't really hip shoot with it), yet handle it like a Heavy weapon for everything else.

I like a good many of these special rules and our group uses the rogue trader rules for semi-auto burst as well. I also really like the rule for the single shot. Especially playing a Metallican Gunslinger.

I think that saying that all pen leftover from E weapons goes through pen might be a little too broad. There are tons of energy weapons and that seems a bit overpowered. If you did make it a special trait for plasma and melta it would make sense.

Tyraxus said:

Also, there are already full auto lasguns: The Minerva Aegis from the Inquistor's Handbook, for example, though it gets a smaller magazine and lowered damage as a result.

Tyraxus said:

I really like the change to Single Shot, I'll be implementing it in my campaigns moving forward.

I like all the rules but am concerned the change to semi-auto makes sniping even weaker than it already is and leads to a why bother going for singe shot when I could semi-auto and move anyway. I'd make it so you can only move half your agi, not much at all but could potentially make a difference and that way single-shot and move isn't so outclassed.

I like the TB reduction for E weapons, they're all terribly weak imo. The more I think about this the more I like it; fights are more lethal (which I like), lasguns actually have a reason to be taken, las's become competitive sniper weapons because reduction of TB makes one-shot kills that much easier.

I agree that it makes the "Single shot and move" combo redundant, but disagree that it makes sniping weaker. "Sniping" practically is going to be Aim+Shoot with an Accurate weapon, and since you're already using your half action to aim, you're not using it to move, making it a tactical choice to stand stationary and snipe or fire for less damage and move. True, if you've already decided to move it makes more sense to semi-auto, but I think that makes sense in-universe, since I see 40k being based around "Drive me closer, I want to hit it with my sword!" and/or "There's enough lead/explosives in the air that only the most badass can get through!" You know, Grimdark and 'Eavy Metal.

Also, if somebody really wants to both snipe and semi-auto, combat careers get Quick Draw fairly quick and the cheapest (non primitive, since primitive weapons suck) semi-auto capable weapon is the Civitas laspistol for 40 thrones (and it's also reliable!), followed by the stub automatic for 50. The cheapest semi-auto capable rifle (for when you need to put lead further downrange) is the Drusus Prime-pattern Lasgun for 50 thrones and a 100m range increment.

Barring modded or houseruled equipment, you're not gong to get a sniper rifle that can semi-auto, so you're stuck with the choice until Quick Draw... and you know what? I'm fine with that. I like weapon choices where you're not good at everything off the shelf. Custom/modded pieces though...

Grab Trade-Armorer as an elite advance, spend time studying weapons and diagrams (all the while risking the wrath of the Cult Mechanicus if you're caught), use Armorer as an Int skill to design a semi-auto feature onto your sniper rifle (or for those who love pure damage, accuratizing your Armageddon-pattern autogun), and then make the roll to actually build the thing (again probably using Int rather than Str, since gunsmithing relies far more on knowledge and manual dexterity than on brute force), and we'll talk. If you've got the downtime, skill, and cajones to do it and the Deceive and Knowledge - Cult Mechanicus skills to actually bluff people into thinking it's a real pattern of weapon if they get suspicious... then you've obviously sunk enough resources into doing this that I'm not really going to say no unless it's something way out there. In the end you've spent a lot more than just a session's worth of XP on Quick Draw and a few Thrones from mugging somebody, er, prosecuting a heretic, on a new pistol, and you've handed the GM (me) a plot hook to boot. You get your nifty gun, I get to have fun with your character, it's win-win!

I think the Idea of TB being reduced by Pen is a bad idea. It's just not how the should work. And it wohld make them much too strong.

The only reason most energy weapons are too weak is because Burst and Autofire are too strong. And for that we use a simple fix:

The combat rules in the free black crusade adventure use a somewhat different combat system that we have adopted to all our 40k games. It is simple, RAW in one official game and it solves a lot of problems with the DH combat system:

The bonuses and penalties für the different modes of fire and the kind of action used was changed. In Addition swift/lightning attack now works like burst/full auto.

Standard attack: +10 to hit, half action
Burst/swift attack: +0 to hit, half action, +1hit/2 DOS
Full Auto/Lightning Attack: -10 to hit, half action, +1 hit/ 1 DOS

Two weapon attack: +0 to hit, full action

not having the full ruleset yet leaves some other questions open but hopefully it will not be long bevore we have the new rulebook now.

Burst/autofire are weird, but that doesn't have a lot of effect on the energy v. SP weapons issue (and even less for me, since I've given lasguns FA 5). No, to me the real disparity between las and SP is two words: manstopper rounds. Then, if/when you get into fighting daemons, add two more words: blessed ammo.

Honestly, allowing Pen from E weapons means Melta and Plasma weaponry will paste somebody in one hit. Not a problem. Flamers will cut through armour and maybe have a point or two left over on armoured people, and hurt unarmoured people pretty bad (1d10+4). Again, not a problem.

Las weapons with Pen out of the box are the Longlas (1), Civitas Lasgun (2), the Steel Burner las-hand cannon (2), various Hellguns and Hellpistols (3-4), the Multilaser (heavy weapon, 4), and the MP Lascannon (heavy weapon, 10). I'm cool with a lascannon pasting anything it hits, and I'm equally cool with hellguns/multilasers mowing down regular humans. And it makes duelling las actually able to (maybe, with a good shot/damage roll) kill someone in a duel!

As far as conceptually "that's not how it should work," I see energy weapons expending their energy on the target, with no real possibility of overpenetration like a bullet (basically, las weapons don't have "through-and-throughs").