The whole chaotic morality excerpt pretty much covered that there are no good groups, just good individuals, in 40kland. I'm inclined to agree.

Actually, I'm saying that Chaos isn't evil. It also, however, isn't good.

What Chaos is, at it's heart, is amoral - because it is Chaos. It is everything, and it is nothing.

You can, I guess worship chaos and be good, but it won't get you anywhere in the eyes of the Chaos gods. The background is filled with examples of people comitting terrible deeds that caught the eyes of the gods, which in turn rewarded them for it.

There are no examples (at least that I'm aware of) where the gods rewarded someone for good deeds.

So you might play BC in a way that lets your "good chaos worshippers" be rewarded by the gods, and you should if thats how you want to play the game, but it won't be "right" according to the established background in which the game takes place.

Frankly I take the view that even in canon there are good chaos worshippers, they are just Massively overshadowed by the bad guys. But that doesn't matter for sake of this Game, we can be as moral as we want to be or we could end up losing those same morals in our quest.

Jackal_Strain said:

Because how many books/novels have been written from the point of view of Chaos followers?

Most 40k books are from the view of the Imperium and, to a lesser extent, Eldar. Of course Chaos are only ever going to be shown as evil.

This is one of the first books to cover, in any depth whatsoever, the nature of Chaos and their followers - if it allows you to play "good" characters, who still can develop in the eyes of the Chaos Gods, then it's obviously possibly.

IMO the spirit of the game doesnt really lend itself to a character that starts out good, stays good and ascends to daemonhood having only done good and noble deeds.

It does however lend itself very well to people starting out with the noblest of intentions and then somewhere down the road those intentions change, subtly at first but maybe drastically later on. A khorne character that starts out as a chaos worshipper so he can better defend or revenge is homeplanet being sacked by the Imperium and then as he grows in power, he starts to see the very same people he wanted to defend, as weak and spineless losers who cant take charge of their own destiny and deserve nothing than to be ruled by an ironfist.

Jackal_Strain said:

Magnus the Red is the most obvious example. Acquire infamy, acquire corruption, become daemon prince. Its that simple.

Not to mention that chaos undivided characters don't even need to obey, like, or worship the chaos gods, and can still become an Undivided daemon prince without bending knee to anyone.

MILLANDSON said:

Well, I´ve read Dark Apostle. Quite the evil **** the Word Bearers where doing there.

I think whether chaos is evil or not is up to interpretation. Chaos itself, as in the raw energy, to me is some sort of force or power. It has no agenda or mind of its own thus it isn´t evil. It´s dangerous though, like "hazardous or radioactive material" in some ways, and often shaped into evil form by daemons.

The ones who dwell within the immaterium are evil imo, the dark gods (who are probably selfproclaimed and just the mightiest daemons out there), and the deamons. Their mortal followers are evil aswell. Some who are tricked into worship might not be, but those who know the dark gods in all their daemonic glory are.

Have never read of anyone who has been rewarded by the dark gods for...being nice.

Deinos said:

MAgnus the Red's anctions are far from those of a good person. They speak of a man obsessed with attaining knowlegde, no matter the cost. He is also possibly one of the most arrogant persons in the history of the imperium.

Ad being aligned towards chaos undivided doesn't mean you get decide for yourself what chaos is or isn't like some new age religion from the real world. It means that you take care to offer all the gods the same attention. Either that or pure chaos in itself. Either way you still follow the general creed of Chaos, which is (if we go by any of the established examples) pretty evil no matter how you look at it.

Sure, you may start out with the noblest of intentions, but you know what they're so fond of paving the way to hell with?

When that is said, I do encourage my players to play characters that view themselves as being right. Maybe even good, since it will make for much more interesting stories. Whether the motivation is revenge against the Imperium that has wronged them, lust for power or whatever really. I'm a fan of comparing an interesting Bc character to Dr. Doom or Magneto (for those of you who are familiar with comics).

There's no doubt that both of those are villains. There's no doubt that they are evil even, but their motivations for doing the evil things they do are at least understandable. Dr. Doom wants to rule the world. This is a classic super villain agenda, but he doesn't ant to rule for power alone, but because he actually believes that the world will be a better place if he rules. Sure he's deluded, but it makes him less transparent and gives him some debt. He's also made terrible pacts with various daemonic entities, damned people to hell and sacrificed the only woman who ever loved him for immense magical powers, but he did it all because he's desperate to save his mothers soul from eternal damnation in hell.

Magneto is willing to do whatever it takes to ensure that his people might live free from persecution and danger. That means that he's tried to commit genocide against the human race as the most extreme example. He suffered at the hands of the nazis in a concentration camp during WWII, so he's probably under the impression that the human race is terrible and needs to be replaced so that homo superior (mutants) might survive and make the world a better place.

this sounds like perfect Bc characters to me. People who perform terrible deeds and are clearly deluded when it comes to right and wrong, but do so because they genuinely believe that it's the right thing to do.

They are not good persons, but they are persone you can relate to in some small manner. And that makes them interesting, imo.

Chaos Undivided chars may do whatever they want, at any time, regardless of what the gods think. It includes those who serve all the gods, who serve 2 or more gods, who serve 1 god but not strongly enough to become aligned, who serve their general concept of Chaos, who serve imaginary chaos gods or those who are yet to come into existence, or who refuse to acknowledge any master at all.

Magneto is a pretty good example (plus he seems to have some sort of crude Psychic Hood), and I definitely got the vibe of a sanctioned psyker eventually turning to Chaos from him.

The only time aligned followers of gods start having their behavior restricted is either A) Slaaneshi or B) those who bear marks of the gods, and I'm not convinced that the Tzeentchian pursuit of knowledge, for instance, is immoral, though I'll certainly agree that Marked Khorne and Nurgle followers have no moral purpose in a galaxy devoid of war (which will probably never happen).

Unaligned characters may do what they want, but they wont attract the gaze of the gods unless they please them.. or anger them. And it's pretty clear what it takes to do just that.

Can you really say, with a straight face, that compacts to kill inquisitors and grey knights, for instance, isn't enough to gain infamy? One example compact was stealing a warship, too. I'm particularly partial to the idea of hijacking Black Ships, as well.

Sure it is, but this is also something that the Chaos gods would look favourably upon.

Therefore, I don't see why you have to be "bad" if you're a chaotic. Just gain infamy by killing the worthy, and deserving, of the Imperium, perform heists and so on.

Isn't the act of killing someone just because they are morally and politically opposed to you pretty "bad"? As I've said earlier in this thread, a heretic may find many justifications for the thing he does in the name of chaos, but if he thinks he's a good person after doing them he's pretty deluded. And thats fine! Playing a character who's so misguided thathe think he's performing good deeds is a great roleplaying opportunity!

Hence "worthy AND deserving," such as anything to do with the League of Black Ships, Puritan Inquisitors or Grey Knights.

I'm not sure if you're arguing for that killing people that might be deemed "deserving" makes a person "good". I'm not sure how to proceed with this discussion until you've clarified your statement further.

Lots of factions and races kill each other in the 40k univers even though they are not affiliated with chaos. The difference between them and followers of chaos is that they don't get boons or attention in the traditional sense from the ruinous powers (the name, although given by the imperium, hints at a certain degree of evilness here ).

I suppose a self proclaimed follower of chaos might keep himself to performing "morally good" decisions, but he will not receive blessings from the ruinous powers (love that description really) unless he crosses the line at a certain point. He will be a servant of the dark gods in nothing, but the name. At least according to the established background material.

One Idea I thought of, A Person may keep to their noble ideas but because of the dark gods increasing interest in them and general increase in how large the conflicts they become involved in are, they are forced/Choose to do more and more drastic things to achieve those goals. A Person may start worshipping Khrone to free their system from the imperium, it starts off as "Fighting the imperial Guard Regiments station in the sector" but they may wind up as "This Agri-world (which may or may not be in the system they are trying free) is feeding an invading imperial guard regiment, burn the whole planet to the ground."

@Jackal_Strain

I really can't follow your argumentation. I'd say being a good guy is about performing a high number of morally good and neutral deeds while abstaining from evil ones.

For a Khornate, this might be saving your homeworld from imperial oppression (good) by making war on the Imperium (neutral, but Khorne-pleasing) and not killing your own guys (which would be kinda evil).
A disciple of Tzeentch could raid the Black Ships (neutral) to save the psykers contained there (good, also Tzeentch-affiliated) and tutor them (also good).

Both guys thus manage to please their gods, increase their infamy and still remain morally upright - though they might sooner or later have to keep away from their loved ones, lest for example the Khornate kills them in a fit of rage.
Yes, it's going to be hard - but then again, so is being an Inquisitor and trying to minimize collateral damage.

Pretty much how I'd say it, just with more simplicity.

Also, I can't stop screwing up when I quote people, so I'm just going to stop using the quote/paste function...

It is possible to start out "good", but my point is that sooner or later, you're gonna have to cross that line if you want the gods to look favorably upon you and continue to bless you.

I don't know how you intend to run your games, but according to established "fluff", it takes ever-increasing acts of infamy to retain the attention of the chaos gods. You can't just stop fighting when your original enemies are dead. There is no retirement from servitude to the dark gods.

Chaos should not (imo) be watered down to something useful you can use when it suits you and disregarded when it's inconvenient.

I think this discussion need some parameters if we're ever gonna get somewhere. I'm under the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that some of you guys look at good and bad like black and white. Much like WHO defined health as the complete absence of illness and sickness in the 1940s, compared to the newest definition is which describes health as s constant process where you fight against illness, social and psychological problems.

What exactly does it mean to be good in your eyes? And can that definition be transfered to the 40k setting?

Infamy is the notice of mortals. You get it by showing that you always win at whatever you set out to do and that you can't be stopped. The gods don't directly figure into it. According to Black Crusade.

Corruption is the notice of the gods -- whether positive or negative, and how much the warp has permeated your mind, body, and spirit (perhaps these are the same thing). You will get this almost inevitably, whether you want it or not, so long as you muck around with chaos rituals or fighting/deceiving the Imperium, it seems. Maybe even then. As such, Black Crusade chars definitely do not need any help at all amassing the gods' notice.

I interpret an "evil" individual as one who, basically, directly kills or oppresses innocents to get what they want, and a "good" individual as someone who refuses to budge on this principle, and a heroic as well as good individual is out to undo the works of evil.

To me, not only is infamy compatible with either concept, but that infamy, and its concept of unstoppable, unfailing determination, is perfectly harmonious to having a good and heroic individual. While fate doesn't care if you win or lose, infamy does -- if you're going to grow in infamy, you cannot afford to fail or accept defeat. If you start a compact, you have to see it straight through to the end, or accept failure. As such, being a good and heroic person is a subset of this -- just as the path of infamy requires you to never accept failure, the path of good requires you to never accept evil. There will always be muddled situations, but if you don't know the answer, you can always abstain from pulling the trigger.

And just as its possible to be a good person IRL, its possible to be a good person in 40k. In one way its easier; because in real life, it is a matter of complexity, while in 40k, its a mere matter of difficulty. An interstellar empire of a million worlds arrives at your planet, to take your natural resources, to take your young and gifted people, to tell you that treating mutants as people is wrong and to tell you how and who to worship, and all "for your own good." Shut up and obey, or else.

How do you fight that?

In a normal universe... you don't. You couldn't. You'd be completely, utterly, screwed. You could fill your entire life with little victories against the Imperium and never make a difference. But the way infamy works... it matters nothing how big or small your victories are, whether you stand with only your best friend at your side or you have a whole legion at your back, or even if you fight for the freedom of the galaxy or just for the freedom of yourself. If you win again and again, word will get out, and other rebels will provide you with the tools you need to fight. You can either stick to your principles or prove the Imperium right.

Its telling that in Black Crusade, there are no rules for joining the Black Legion or the Blood Pact or whatever. You're not following, you're leading. Its like Malich, sole member and founder of the Burning Eye Legion says, "The gods permit me to tread my own path. Who are you to question them?"