Telmor said:

The book is more like the Designer Diaries (unsurprising, since they wrote it) and is more shades of grey, can have good and noble causes, etc, than it is "play bad guys", at least in my opinion.

Telmor said:

Yep, literally nothing prohibits NOBLEBRIGHT CHAOS CHARS. The only kind of chaos chars who are compelled by the rules to do sick things are Slaaneshi, and even then, they are only inclined to pursue pleasures they enjoy -- so if you don't like reverse consensual position, Slaanesh is not going to make you a rapist, etcetera.

Telmor said:

It is and it isn't. Most of the writing that describes the history tends to take an interesting Chaos-is-freedom-the-Imperium-is-tyranny tone, but the setting, and most of the NPC's offerred (especially in the adventure in the back of the book) is/are one-dimensionally evil and the Corruption mechanic reinforces evil play.

Gaining Corruption is an inherent part of the game: the game literally ends when you reach 100 Corruption and what happens to you depends on how many infamy points you have then. PC's are considered to have 100 insanity and 100 Corruption when they begin, but BC starts them on a new scale on Corruption. The characters are seasoned heretics.

Of course, one of the cool things about role-playing games is that you don't have to play it this way if you don't want to

Corruption doesn't really "reinforce evil play" (all the sample Undivided corrupting acts are morally neutral by default) and as to the second topic, of the game ending at 100 corruption, there is plenty of room for people who are heretics that don't seek out corruption. Actually, the book even states heretics who gain corruption tend to do so by intentionally, willingly seeking it out, but also states that most heretics, even aligned ones, are in it for themselves, not for the dark gods, so its hardly out of character for them to postpone gaining corruption.

I wrote that late at night and didn't explain my point of view very well.

It's perfectly possible to play a PC in Black Crusade who isn't clearly evil, who doesn't seek out Corruption Points, and who only occasionally gains them through the mechanics of gameplay. The acts that gain you Corruption aren't necessarily evil, but the Corruption points themselves are. It's a scale from human to monstrous alien thing with little if any regard for humanity (Daemon Prince). Even the name "Corruption" suggests evil.

It's difficult enough to determine real world good and evil in absolute terms and much more so in a game world where morality, history, and necessity conform to the "rule of cool" as one other poster put it (not to mention how the setting has changed in 20 or so years). But the feel of the game in some parts seems to encourage all out evil play. The images meant to represent PC's are mostly of psychotic looking individuals of the type that usually represent the most reprehensible scum of the galaxy, and 100 Corruption is the endgame the rules set down.

Of course you can play differently. I'm not saying that Black Crusade straightjackets PC's into making sadistic murderers, but certain parts of the setting and rules encourage that. I've found that even an exceptional role-player has difficulty maintaining a nuanced personality for a character when he has daemon horns sprouting from his head and has the ability to breathe hellfire.

I did mention that parts of the book support a less bloodthirsty style of play. The Passions help give the characters clearly defined goals and motivations and the Compacts are brilliant.

bloody malth said:

Isnt this the very idea behind corruption ?

You can start out with the nobles of intentions but if you progress that far down the path of chaos that you start sprouting horns, then you have lost a part of your humanity and your outlook on the world will reflect that.

If you seek out ever greater favors from the chaos gods (more corruption points) then you have to play their game and a big part of that game is being outright evil. You can probably progress from 0 to 100 corruption points by being a selfless protector of the weak and a merciless hunter of psykers and the decadent (if Khorne), but its going to be a longer and tougher road than the raving maniac who delights in spilling rivers of blood and bathing in them. And thats how corruption works and its well presented here IMO.

Once you start looking like a monster, people will treat you like a monster and most will end up being monsters. All part of the plans of the chaos gods, they corrupt and change you.

@Bloody Malth

But the feel of the game in some parts seems to encourage all out evil play. The images meant to represent PC's are mostly of psychotic looking individuals of the type that usually represent the most reprehensible scum of the galaxy, and 100 Corruption is the endgame the rules set down.

Images don't really mean all that much in 40k - at least in Dark Heresy, I haven't yet found a picture of a quiet unassuming middle-aged man who smiles and nods at the heretics' meetings and then nonchalantly strolls off to the -=I=-'s offices, although I've played just that guy and he was among the most effective information gatherers.

As for the 100 Corruption endgame: Don't forget that there's a second endgame in store precisely for those who stay short of 100 CP. And I'm not sure about you, but leading a Black Crusade to liberate the Sectors I care about from the Imperium sounds like exactly what those types of characters would want.

I'm not denying that heretics are probably going to be nasty individuals. On the other hand, Dark Heresy Ascension suggests that the flaying and vivisection of loyal acolytes as tests of loyalty isn't an unusual precaution, that inquisitors will literally use DNA-tailored viruses to commit genocide against particular races on planets to achieve military objectives, the way that psykers are tortured into gibbering wrecks and then used up til they are euthanized, and pretty much everything about the Inquisition and a lot about the Imperium gives me a horrible, disturbing vibe. So from my perspective, 40k roleplay chars are pretty much always going to be dealing with nightmarish people and nightmarish institutions, and just doing your job without staining your hands black is as much part of the challenge as any epic battle.

I do deny two things: that hitting 100 corruption is inevitable and that corruption equates to evil in any way.

For the first, corruption gain happens eventually, but its not at all certain that this will happen prior to hitting 140 infamy.

For the second, a guy who just goes around killing for fun and to get what he wants and never mucks around with the supernatural will have almost no corruption, while a guy who is a master daemon hunter who binds the worst denizens of the Warp into daemon weapons to keep them from ravaging humanity is going to have massive corruption. Although a victim of the more degrading mutations is probably going to become traumatized and angry at the world (I feel bad for someone with no **** face left), I would not mind some sweet wings, for instance.

Also, I don't buy that becoming a daemon prince robs you of free will or your old personality; I believe that if a daemon prince is a vile, cruel monster, chances are that's how they've always been one. I certainly know of zero daemon princes whose actions as a DP are out of character with their old behavior.

EDIT: As to "playing the game of the chaos gods" the chaos gods encompass positive and negative aspects alike. More importantly, infamy is directly stated to be the esteem of mortals, not the gods (that's corruption) -- which makes no sense at all to me, since infamy lets you escape death, accrues even when no one witnesses your actions (as far as I can tell), and is the deciding factor of whether you become a daemon prince or a spawn... you can totally rack up 100-140 infamy, and even if every last one of your corruption points are gained from that point from Failure, you will still become a daemon prince. The main reason the iconic Khornates are frothing retards is because the World Eaters are literally lobotomized.

I am quite curious as to what a person who had managed to stay a good person through out their entire service to chaos would act like when they ascended to Daemon Princehood.

I dont think the gods would ascend him.

Bassemandrh said:

I think they would, if it suited a particular god's wishes at the time.

Many Nurgle worshippers could be good people, they just want to help you deal with your suffering, and embrace Papa Nurgle as he loves you.

Khorne just wants skulls and blood - you could be a good Khorne worshipper, who strikes down those who oppress others.

Tzeentch... well, the entire reason you've been a good person is because that's how Tzeentch wants it.

And as for Slaanesh - you just want people to be happy, to feel pleasure - what's so bad about that?

See, pretty easy to have Chaos worshippers who are "good".

MILLANDSON said:

That is quite the oversimplification when it comes to the chaos gods, but you've kinda captured the essence of the different chaos gods, except for Slaanesh wich you're dead wrong about.

Slaanesh isn't about pleasure, and he/she isn't about pain either. Slaanesh is all about excess and taking things to the extreme, be it pain, pleasure or whatever really. The common depictions of Slaanesh worshippers as members of sm sex clubs is getting quite old imo. The musician that refuses to see how his life is falling to ruin because his only focus is on acchieving perfect technique and creating a magnificent piece of music, too blind to see that he has allready acchieved everything one could ever hope to is a much more interesting depiction of a follower of slaanesh. The same could be said about the warrior that longs for battle constantly, not because of a lust for bloodshed, but the drive to perfect his technique.

It's my opinion that it's impossible to be "good"person and a dedicated follower of slaanesh because his way is above all else selfishness taken to the extreme. It's impossible to live according to Slaanesh's creed without constantly putting your own needs above others.

MILLANDSON said:

The only problem is that being good is counter produktive for the gods.

Nurgle wants you to spread disease not cure them.

Khorne wants you to kill everyone, a good person will eventually stop spilling blood and collecting skulls.

Tzeentch wants you to believe you're doing something good, but you aren't in fact you're helping the bads guys.

Slaanesh wants you to become addicted to whatever and go to extreme lenghts to get your fix.

Slaanesh followers are the odd duck out (as I have commented before, they have a code of conduct to desecrate and corrupt and to indulge, while the other chaos types lack a code of conduct other than "don't lose") but I could still envision a heroic Slaanesh follower, although not a selfless one (probably). Heroic deeds may bring great rewards and great renown, and I could imagine, say, a self promotional noise marine who adores his fans as much as they adore him, and it'd be better to protect people than kill them since he'd rather be loved than feared (other than as an iconoclast, as all Slaaneshi seem to have to be iconoclasts).

Such an individual would probably be entirely self centered, and would perhaps be a good guy, but a horrible person to be around... a man who'd gladly risk death fighting against a horde of xenos or Khornates just so tales of his valor could be told, but would only be interested in talking about himself.

Still, if a Slaaneshi does good or bad, its because that's where his passions lead him. They tend to be essentially passive people except where it intersects with their desires and so

As to the idea that chaos gods wouldn't ascend someone who was "good," it looks like if you hit 100 corruption and 100 infamy (or whatever), you ascend... even if every last corruption point you had, was from failing the chaos gods.

From a fluff rather than crunch standpoint, all the chaos gods encompass good and evil traits within themselves; Tzeentch is the chaos god of hope and learning, and generally it is glaringly obvious how his followers could be benevolent (in fact, Mind Eater Daemonbound weapons of Tzeentch only deal temporary intelligence/perception damage, so they could even avoid killing in a gunfight). Its been specifically stated that prayers of healing and curses of sickness alike are Nurgle's purview, the challenge there is mainly to avoid the mutations that make you disgusting as hell (plus, Nurgle did save Isha's life, and does view himself as good and loving, and refuses to acknowledge that his plagues cause suffering, which shows he wouldn't dislike a "good" follower).

And Slaanesh... well, is a challenge. Unless you have Armor of Contempt from your acolyte days.

I agree with most of the things you say, but we should draw a line between good and heroic. You can be heroic without being a good person.

Well that's a good point.

@Jackal Strain

I, on the other hand would say that you're rather wrong about Slaanesh. Taking things to extremes is not Slaanesh-exclusive - that's typical for all Chaos not restrained by a mortal mind. As Bassemandrh said: Khorne would like you to spill all the blood, not just the deserving.

The deities are all about the emotions of sentient beings, with Slaanesh being the incarnation of Lust. Not just lust as in sex, but lust as in anything that feels good, including, as you noted, perfection. The excess part mainly comes from the jadening inherent in always giving in to that lust and thus needing more and more to get your fix.

@Bassemandrh

I'd rather stick with MILLANDSON. To go with your examples:

Yes, Nurgle wouldn't want you to heal the sick - but he'd have no problems with easing their suffering and teaching them acceptance.

Khorne may want you to never put down the hatchet - but then again, this is 40k we're talking about. Do you really think we're going to run into a recession of smite-worthy evildoers any time soon? Of course, this does mean that the guy who made the pact to liberate his homeworld would never be able to settle down on it once it's stabilized.

Tzeentch... yes, maybe the results of your good actions further evil ends. Since this is Tzeentch we're talking about, however, these ends may be millenia in the future.

Slaanesh has already been discussed.

I remeber one of the first previews of Black Crusade was Shades of Grey and I think the jist of it was "Yeah, most Chaos worshippers are jerks but all the Dark gods embody some postive things too" A Champion of Khrone can be all about martial pride, honor, looking for worthy challenger to fight in honorable combat, and only occasionally throws brass things at Pyskers. Slaanesh Worshippers can be perfectionists or indulges in stuff that isn't horribad ****, Nurgle worshippers can be all about survival or rebirth or being Santa Claus for a planet. Tzeentch worshippers can scheme up schemes for the Greater Good (Not that Greater good) or just in too expanded their knowledge on the universe.

Bassemandrh said:

Nurgle - the plagues usually keep his followers alive, and even stronger than they were before - why would giving other people his blessing not be a good thing?

Where does it say Khorne wants you to kill everyone? As long as he gets his fill, he doesn't care where it comes from - it's not hard to just go after thieves, murderers and rapists - essentially you'd be doing it for an honourable and "good" purpose.

How do you know your helping the bad guys? Tzeentch might actually want you to help the "good guys" (and who are they in 40k? ) because it suits his purposes more than you doing anything else.

And Slaanesh wants experience, pleasure, pain - Slaanesh wants you to live your life to your fullest, and to experience the many wonders of the universe. How is helping people do that automatically a bad thing?

I think you're being quite single minded in trying to only think of the bad side, when there is always another side to the coin.

You say Nurgles followers are being kept alive, is it a good thing to only help his followers? A good person will want to help everyone, and as a follower of Nurgle you will end up killing Civilians with your "gifts".

Khorne is insatiable, at some point you wont be killing enough criminals to satisfy his needs and then what?

Tzeentch is Tzeencht, i happen to believe that his grand plan doesnt have a very good outcome for humanity.

Slaanesh is an extremist, everthing will have to become extreme if you follow him. You may help people be happy, but there will be no limits for them to achieve happiness.

To me it seems like you're trying to take a "good guy" followers point of view and trying to justify the horrible actions he is doing.

A person may have the most noble intentions when starting to follow Chaos, but Chaos is chaos and will make you insane, corruptet and will twist your ideas to something that from the starting point will seem like another wrong.

Fx: A khornate Rebel that wants to free people from the shackles of the imperium, will evovle into a fighter that wants to destroy the Imperium.

I do want to say that if you're playing a character in Black Crusade you most likely will not see yourself as an evil person. You will say the end justifies the means, or dont care at all. Your intentions may be of good, but as with everything else chaos, your starting objective is rarely where you end up, and it wont be as you imagined from the start.

Those are all valid points from the perspective of a member of the Imperium...

From the omniscient observer perspective, not so much. We do know beyond a doubt that:

- Medicae is a Nurgle-affiliated skill; everything to do with toughness, healing, or regenerating falls into the purview of Nurgle, and brings you more aligned with him, not less. Perhaps doctors pleasantly remind him of Isha. Or more likely, its because he admires those who cling to life and struggle to survive. Either way, just don't infect people, simple as that.

- Tzeentch is the god of hope and change, his will is present in all beings beginning with the first division of cells. There really isn't a case against Tzeentchians in general, so I don't need to say more.

- Khorne encompasses all acts of killing and war, and you cannot stop feeding Khorne until you throw away your bolter and chainsword forever. As long as there are aliens out killing and eating people, or imperial rulers grinding subjects under their boot with 140 hour work weeks, or even fellow chaos followers who do bad things... a Khornate will always have just cause to do his god's will. Once the galaxy is completely at peace, things may change.

- Slaanesh... it all depends on your desire, I suppose.

Bassemandrh said:

Tzeentch has no grand plan, he schemes for the sake of schemeing. He probably wants to keep the Imperium and humanity around just so he can have someone to scheme against. His noble followers probably please him greatly because A: They help ensure that the galaxy never stablizes and changes in every way possible B: They probably are keys to larger schemes of his, keep in mind his Lords of Change can only die when he wants them too, because a Lord of Change dying would some how help the Thousand Sons win a battle 200 years later or something.

@Bassemandrh

You say Nurgles followers are being kept alive, is it a good thing to only help his followers? A good person will want to help everyone, and as a follower of Nurgle you will end up killing Civilians with your "gifts".

Then it would certainly be helpful to convince the people to worship nurgle and accept his gifts.

Khorne is insatiable, at some point you wont be killing enough criminals to satisfy his needs and then what?

Then you take a starship, let its cogitator plot a random course, go there and see what can be justifiably killed there. Or are you seriously suggesting that there's a lack of things you can kill in good conscience? In 40k ? When the Orks still outnumber humanity? When there's Tyranids and Necrons running around going "who can kill the galaxy faster?"?
I don't think so.

I guess we wont come to an agreement as i wont be able to accept Chaos as being a neutral faction, to me they are evil (just as the Imperium is).

But let me ask you this, if it is this easy to be doing good as Chaos why aren't they the good guys in every depiction of 40k?

We aren't saying Chaos is neutral we are just saying there is a possibilty for people to worship chaos and still be good, because most of us would at least like the option to play as someone who isn't giggling/ raging madman.