On the other hand, while stressing that many idealist turn to chaos, this does not mean that sheer egoism and personnal advancement are not the driving motivation of a very large part of the followers of chaos. An understandable emotion that we all have up to a certain point, but there are moments when these emotions become downright reprehensible. Aiming to become a Daemon Prince at all cost can hardly be defined as anything else then evil. There are no high strung ideals at stake here, only raw power.

In all probability, idealist players will begin attempting to stay true to their goals, but the lure of chaos will slowly but certainly corrupt them. Take the clearest idealist from 'Broken Chains', Hephastius Bore. He intends to improve mankind, which is in se a good intention (dives away for any monotheists who consider tampering with the human genome is evil). His goal seems clear: continue his research and show his masters the wisdom of his acts. If there is one certain path of damnation, this is it. How long will he resist 'improving' some of the carrion, struck by their dread existence? Will he resist experimenting on unwilling subjects if they are so on offer, and after all, it is for the greater good...

It makes me think about maintaining humanity in Vampire. The best of intentions, but every further step makes it so much easier to slip away and let the Beast grow a tighter hold on your soul.

Then there will come that point when those good intentions are shed like old clothes, and a new clear goal becomes apparent. Attaining pure knowledge undreamed off and the power to wield it. If one can be a Daemonprince, what else is there left?

FvR

The goal of achieving daemonhood might not be as black and white as you paint it to be. You say that the goal in itself is evil, but why? It might simply be that becoming a daemon prince is the surest way of attaining freedom (or trade your chains with new ones). It might be a a way to make sure that you are powerful enough to ensure yourself and your followers are protected. It's almost certainly about personal glory and power, but is that evil in itself?

This is not so different from what those loyal to the emperor would do, but the methods are different. I hate bringing real life examples into discussions like these, but take suicide bombers for example. I think most people would agree that blowing yourself up is a terrible thing to do, but the fact is that it's the only option some people see. These people are not evil in their own and their loved ones eyes.

It might be the same about chaos in some ways. You can't reall judge a heretic (by our standarrds, not 40k ones) before you walk a mile or two in his shoes.

I think we can safely call those who try to become a Daemonprince evil, even if it is just for acts they do on the road they have to walk. There are just things that we can consider reprehensible even if they are done with the best of intentions.

Trying to find greyscales in the debate of good and evil and approach a question with an open mind should not absolve us in the end of making up our mind. The big danger of being to flexible is that we do not have an opinion in the end. And no opinion needs to be permanent, there are always new facts and new interpretations that might change our mind. But, until then, at the end, we are always forced to make a choice, otherwise the discussion becomes void, without a reason of being.

So yes, to me a character trying to become a Daemon Prince is evil. Dark and terrible evil. I cannot wait!

FvR

I agree with you. they are most certainly evil! I just doubt they have the clarity of mind to perceive themselves as such.

That probably depends...I guess most characters so far on the road of damnation have left human morality all together, so I am not sure if they still think in terms of good and evil. When the world is reduced to Blood for the Blood God, I wonder if there even still is an internal question of good and evil. It probably has been superceded by a different divine clarity.

FvR

That's why I couldn't make a good Khorne character.

I'm sure you could - it's just the question if he could stay good.

At least, I'm sure I could: A guardsman (or probably officer in the guard) who can't stand his men being treated as meat for the grinder any longer - especially not by faceless Administratum adepts who have never seen a lasgun. He wants his men to be valued as fighters, so he makes a pact with the one entity that values war and conflict above everything else and vows to not succumb to the bloodlust while fighting for what he believes in.

Let's see how long he lasts.

I think there the main main thing that gve the Imperium the moral high ground (over Chaos anyway) is that it does at its far end have the well being of humanity at heart.

First lets imagine that all the threats to humanity suddenly disappeared, no more xenos, rouge psykers or daemons then the Imperium would slowly (very slowly) revert to what was actually good for humans, well, so far as any human society has ever looked after its own people.

Indeed there are various Imperial groups who already have this goal in mind, Logan Grimmnar, Recongrigators etc.

Incidentally as a government type the Imperium (as in the Adeptus Terra) paradoxically is pretty liberal in its own exceedingly totalitarian way, they just have certain laws which are invioable. These include xenophobia massive discrimination against psykers and a hatred of Chaos. Other than that they don't really care what an individual planet in the Imperium gets up to.

Chaos by contrast would not do this. Chaos would fight and scheme amongst itself. There would be no peace, only destruction of one kind or another.

Chaos always starts out as helping people, or as manifestations of simple emoitions hope pride honour etc, but that is just the first level. Chaos is ultimately about, well Chaos! It glorifies uncaring wanton blind cruelty nilihisim power and destruction.

I don't think anyone is going to argue that the Imperium is going to win any Noble Peace Prizes any time soon or be sharing a podium with Mother Teresa but it is in a different league to the full horrors of Chaos.

No more foul Xenos, dastardly chaos or rogue psykers! Oh, the dream...the calm...the peace and quiet. That can mean only one thing: it is time to fight each other again for the domination of the galaxy!

FvR

Visitor Q said:

[citation needed]

Visitor Q said:

Other than that and other than the mighty emperor is the one and only god of humanity, so you must revere him and the sacred imperium or otherwise. Ah, thinking leads to doubt and doubt leads to heresy. So, please, no thinking.

Lord Ork said:

Well the ways in which the Emperor is worshipped is pretty broad actually. But yeah the theocracy thing might also be a negative......

Yeah, you have total freedom on the way you consider the God Emperor your Supreme Being and submit to the imperium in servitude.

Alot of the worlds in the imperium are feral, and the imperium doesn't seem to mind that much. But yeah, on imperial worlds you have to accept the God Emperor as your one true saviour. Kind of like the dark ages in europe, exept with laser guns and space ships.

Good and bad, I think most will be shades of grey. Most people don't see themselves as evil but rather have motivations or world views that justify their actions. Killing in the name of your god is a sign of blind devotion, maybe even helping them as you believe they're better off in death. As a sacrifice to khorne, or returning to grand father nurgle. Just like sending a regiment of guardsmen to their deaths knowing their sacrifice saves many more from the clutches of chaos.

Honestly, the good guys only do good stuff only happens in movies and is disney morality at it's worst. Sometimes you have to do sh*tty things because the alternative is so much worse. Other times who's evil is more a matter of perspective. Churchill put it nicely "History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it". And it has been, considering some of his less known ideas and actions...

I have a character I'm currently playing in a WHFRP Campaign (2nd Edition) - he's a common man with little power to his name. Certainly no titles, no magic, and only a handful of skills with which to survive and achieve with. On a roleplaying angle - he has taken under his charge his niece and nephew as his sister was burned, unjustly, as a witch in a political maneuver by some nobles. How can a lowly commoner hope to do what's right - when the corrupt and the powerful seek to take advantage of him at every angle? Certainly - there must be someone willing to offer this poor sod some aid.

These are the elements of a servant of Chaos in the making.

Chaos Space Marines aside... I think the vast majority of humans come to Chaos for a chance to better their station in life. They feel powerless, especially under the oppressive society of the 40K universe. Like my fantasy character, perhaps they want to make a better life for their family - and along comes a man with an offer. Simple at first - deliver a package to a hab in a spire. Later - you find that the Arbitrators are looking for the culprit who killed the thirty thousand Imperial citizens living in a certain hab you visited only a week ago. So - you seek out the man, surely he'll keep you safe. And he says he will, but first...

Serving Chaos ought to be a slippery slope in my mind. Only the most hopelessly corrupted come to terms with their own "evil".

Look at the Chaos Space Marines... the vast majority of even them seem to consider themselves to be seeing "the bigger picture".

A quote from Dracula perfectly states my opinion about what leads most to Chaos worship: "There is a reason that all things are as they are, and did you see with my eyes and know with my knowledge, you would perhaps better understand." Dracula, Bram Stoker

So a man begins his "liberation" from wrong thinking - and even as he mutates, he "understands" that this is the price for freedom against the stagnant, wrong thinking minds of the Imperium - and even has he commits atrocity after atrocity, he might mourn the loss of people who, if they only " saw with his eyes" or "knew his knowledge" they would surely join him.

Of course - the reality of Chaos is that inevitably you will be devoured by the Chaos gods, forever destroyed.

Not even the Chaos Space Marines are any more relevant to them than toys are to a destructive child.

=====

I think 40K touches upon the concepts of Free Will as an inevitably foolish desire that leads only to corruption because, as 40K warns constantly, knowledge is dangerous. And no human could ever know as the Eldar do - and no Eldar, as the Necron - and perhaps no Necron as the Old Ones... and on, and on.

The "Truth" of the universe (at least the 40K universe) is that the only safeguard... is to know that you will never truly "know" - and that seeking will only bring calamity (at the hands of creatures that know more than you).

The God-Emperor alone knows the truth (or so it is believed) - and only He can keep Chaos, and all the enemies of man, at bay, so - it is with Him that Humanity ought to put their trust. I actually see this as the only logical stance to take (in the Warhammer universe).

To serve Chaos (your own desire - Free Will) is to betray your race, Humanity. To put yourself above Mankind is the greatest sin of the 40K universe.

In the 40K universe - some"thing" will always own you - with the Emperor at least your soul will find succor when death takes you (or, so the Imperium is told - though I believe that the Lore supports this as a reality).

Medhia Nox said:

This is also relative. Who says that the Emperor really knows the Truth? Who asked you if you want to serve that imperium, that man, and his crazy clerics? How can you be a traitor if you chose not to?

There is always a problem in these kinds of discussions with assuming if not A then B.

That is, if the Chaos is bad then the Imperium must be good. Clearly this is not the case. For one thing the Imperium is too vast an organisation of literally thousands if not millions of factions.

However there is clearly a distinction between the alien madness and evil of Chaos and the far more mundane (and dare I say understandable) tyranny of the Imperium.

And there ARE beautiful places in the Imperium that never see war. Garden worlds, pleasure worlds, agriculture worlds, etc.

Only - those worlds would be horribly boring to read about.

Plus - you have figures like the Imperial Saints, some of whom seem to be genuinely good people - but again, they're almost exclusively relegated to "legend". So - if a reader or DM wants - they can say: "Nah, there's more to it than that." But - it's equally possible that the Emperor builds up the truly good people to fight his wars - while he understands the the vast majority of humanity simply could never "get it".

An argument has to be made that humans might just be too stupid to really understand what's good for them. If they could - they could live on peaceful worlds free of Chaos, but since they breed Chaos, they must also be forced to fight "their own natures". Of course, most humans (in game and in real life) are far too arrogant to admit that they simply might have an insurmountable lack of real understanding about the nature of things - and, from hubris - they believe that they can dictate a better existence. It's the very nature of the "Satan" tale. A being who thinks it knows better (Satan) than the only being the can know better (God). The lesson is - Satan was too ignorant to realize his own folly. The same could be said for the worshipers of Chaos.

That being said - I don't think that the Emperor would support the Imperium at all. I think he would bring it crashing down around Him. Like any real religion, philosophy, political idea - once the creator is gone - the followers pervert it to an almost unrecognizable form. I also think the Golden Throne is a prison - and that the Emperor's true power will only come to fruition as an "Order God" upon his death.

To this end - many people who come to Chaos would likely due so with the best of intentions, a lot of them might even have some genuine insight into what the Emperor might have actually wanted - and the corrupt Imperium simply forces them to seek sanctuary outside its bounds where Chaos will always win against a man (though it has failed time and again against an Imperium).

I don't think agriculture worlds inhabitants would have a pleasant life. I think they would work as hard as their hive and forge counterparts.

Also, I don't think that imperial saints would be generally specially nice guys. They will be exceptionally good only to the imperium perspective of good: martyrs and servants to the imperium.

The Satan tale is one who teaches submission and obedience. Acceptance of your superior ones. The same type of servitude that would characterize the imperium.

Medhia Nox said:

It strikes me that a major problem here is that neither Chaos nor the Imperium are massively consistent. An awful lot of 40K setting design is based more around the rule of cool than anything else. Neither the Imperium nor Chaos really have much that really fits into a coherent moral framework.

That said, from the point of view of the *game* I certainly think it would be more interesting to play characters who had legitimate ideological reasons to choose Chaos over the Imperium than just to play straight-up "bad guys".

That said, sometimes you do just want to play Evil Jess McKittenstrangler

What I think would be interesting is playing followers of a deity that isn't a Chaos god and isn't the Emperor.

Of course - it's obviously going to end up being Tzeentch masquerading as whatever god you think you're worshiping - but Tzeentch in no way requires you to be a psychotic baby killer just "because".

I've seen Nature deities used this way in 40K before - and I found the idea compelling.

The spirits keep the crops growing - they keep the people safe, but when the Imperium comes to enforce their ways - they dig up the ground, ship off men to war, and start rooting out your village wise-folk and taking them away.

Your god must demand war against the injustice of this invasion! But - your planet fell and you were forced to escape, or were taken by the Inquisition (or whatever) - and then escaped.

===

Or, even a TechPriest who isn't initially into grinding up babies from some rejuvination soup (yeah, Chaos kills a lot of babies evidently.)

Maybe you're interest is in AIs... and you did encounter one, maybe it turned out to actually be a demon trapped in a cogitator. It began to reveal to you all manner of things and was trying to convince you to hook it up to a TechPriest internet (I forget what it's called.)

You thought it would be a good idea... but the Inquisition stopped you, etc. etc.

===

What worries me are the characters on the front cover.

I know "eventually" I'll have to earn my fifteen pieces of Chaos flare - but, I really hope the premise is to start out fairly unmutated (or, at least have the option - I know I can, and will, just make it that way if it doesn't)

===

The already batshit nuts cultists... and already mutated Chaos SMs... and psykers bedecked with heads and skin and fifty eyes and a giant eight pointed symbol... don't interest me nearly as much as the insidious nature of hidden heretics amongst the masses of the Emperor's faithful.

My first game is going to have the PCs starting out as children/teens on a world not yet reclaimed by the Empire. They have legends of a time when their ancestors traveled the stars, until a great war with the Iron Men nearly destroyed them. The people of their planet managed to destroy the machine aggressors, and they created the Veil, a collection of satalites that suppress any outgoing transmissions and signals from the planet. After that, civilization began to fail without interplanetary trade, they didn't have the infrastracture in place yet to be self-sustaining, etc.

Now ten thousand years later, they have a robust world with a rather Western style society. Some traditions still exist, research into true A.I. is strictly forbidden, space travel isn't an aspiration, and legends of the Veil and Iron Men exist, but true understanding of them fell apart during the millenia of struggling to rebuild civilization.

Due to the actions of a scientist trying to better understand the Veil, their defense network is disabled and a centuries later the Imperium shows up. While technologically advanced, their world doesn't have weaponry much beyond what is needed for police work, with a small planetary defense force that was never needed and mostly just served for an excuse to do high energy research. Space marines make fairly short work of them, and then comes the killing of scientists, culling of psychic individuals, burning of cultural relevant writings and buildings, the building of Imperial Shrines, etc. They grow up during this social change, some becoming the next generation of mechanicus, guarding against any resurgent tech heresy, or perhaps even recruited for the new Imperial Guard regiments being formed. The Space Marine chapter that took the planet is then summoned to oppose a nearby Tyrannid splinter fleet, and gets nearly destroyed. The shattered remnants retreat to the planet, and that is when the rebellion begins.

The players will join the rebellion, and of course find out that some parts of it are under the influence of Chaos. How much they choose to sacrifice to the Chaos Gods for power to aid the rebellion is up to them. From there, the players may just abandon their planet and travel the universe, though I doubt that. Some complications I am going to throw in is the Tau being nearby, they may offer aid in the rebellion, but will become less friendly if they find out about the Chaos influence (Since at the end of the last world campaign the Tau managed to study the warp and decided it was "No place for the Greater Good") and that the Tyrannid splinter swarm is still out there. May be especially poignant for them to finally regain their planet's freedom, to have to swallowed by the alien tide without the Imperium's protection. All depends on what my brilliant bastard PCs do

Another highly important thing to consider is the afterlife. In real life, people often join a religion because it offers an easy path to the afterlife or a better afterlife (not that they are true believers. These people tend to be rather shallow). But in 40k, you have two options if you're human and die. Usually, your soul dissipates into the warp. If you have a Mark of Chaos, you are subsumed by that god. (Or at least, that is my understanding. Imperial loyalists aren't subsumed by the Emperor unless you count the Astronomicon). While the Imperium will tell you that the Emperor guards your soul, once taught the error of their teachings, Chaos becomes a legitimate means of "survival" in the afterlife. If you suck at your job, you get eaten by your god. Bad fate, but a heretic is probably told that they'll retain some sembelence of identity and, thus, being. If you are really good, you become a daemon prince. Thats the closest thing to a true afterlife there is in this setting. And for most people, the thought of no afterlife means that your life's purpose will be to make yourself happy. Which means you're serving Slannesh anyway.

In summation, if you want an afterlife, you have to follow Chaos. If you don't believe in an afterlife, your resulting actions serve Chaos. If you think the Emperor grants an afterlife, you're sorely mistaken and once convinced of the error of your ways, will probably turn to Chaos.

You see, Chaos is a reflection of humanity. It is inescapable because the only way to shatter that dark mirror is to kill ourselves, which feeds Nurgle anyway. There is NOTHING that you can do to escape Chaos. EVERY action you perform serves them because they are a reflection of humanity and you ARE humanity. At your very core, you ARE Chaos.

In further summation (sorry, ranting )

Choosing to ignore morality/philosophy-> Slannesh

Choosing to fight Chaos-> Khorne

Choosing to kill yourself to kill the Chaos gods-> Nurgle

Choosing to manipulate human nature to no longer serve Chaos -> Tzeentch

Im little bit wondering. Why always people presume when there is an uprising or revolt in WH 40K that the reason is Chaos. Maybe after the revolt has started the Chaos gods start to turn their greedy eyes towards the tasty morsels of human souls that star to flow to the Warp. But before that there may have been just unrest or bad mouthing the Imperial administratum that has escalated to open revolt but no Chaos influence what so ever before proverbial powderkeg has been lighted.

After that Chaos might start to take interest in whats happening in some planet but before nothing.

PS. and im sure someone will point to me that Chaos is always pulling the strings because Tzeench is the Great Manipulator etc etc great names.

In my opinion every race in WH40K is not good or bad they only want to survive for next few hours.

As the Black Crusade devs have already stated, there are no good guy factions, only good individuals. So a Dark Heresy or a Black Crusade individual can be good, evil, or never even placed into a situation where they can make the moral choice.

Someone may argue that seeking the immortality of a Daemon Prince automatically makes you a "bad guy" somehow, but there is a vast moral difference between a Heretic who grows in infamy by rescuing the terrified innocents sentenced to the horrible Black Ships or by slaying the "No Witnesses" Grey Knights, and a Heretic who grows in infamy by orbital bombarding Imperial worlds 24/7, and uses human sacrifices to power his psyker abilities without fear of Perils of the Warp.

This is in much the same way that there's a huge difference between an Inquisitor who seriously believes that "it is better to kill a million innocents than to let a single heretic go free" and who massacres loyal imperial guard for witnessing a daemon and an Inquisitor who just relocates loyal imperials to one of his secluded private worlds to work there instead.

To act like there are no moral choices other than your choice in faction shows a lack of imagination.

I think the debate is very interesting, and I think the most important thing to remember when it comes to Chaos and the Imperium is this:

Most of the background fluff are written from an imperial viewpoint, and will most be skewed. I'm not saying that chaos is actually good, just that the horrible tales of the madness of chaos is only one part of it. Chaos is CHAOS. It is potential, it holds everything. It reflects the state of the galaxy, and considering said state, with all the wars and madness taking place, then it is hardly surprising that Chaos holds much madness. But it's not all there is too it. If Chaos holds everything, then there must also be good, even if it would be dwarfed by the influence of the Big Four.

My real issue is that I hope that this complexity is somehow portrayed in Black Crusade. The first writings about it seemed to hint at the fact that although the Imperium would see a BC character as "the bad guy", he or she would have reasons, they could be driven by good and noble causes, only since it is WH40k, corruption is always close by. But the more I've read about it the more it seems to be about "playing the bad guys".

I just hope the book itself is more nuanced than that.