Hi,

Let me start by stating that I was a big fan of the new TV show, and I think the boardgame superbly captures the essence and tone of it.

We have recently purchased the base game and played ~10 games so far. Most of the games were played with 3 players, only 1-2 with 4. My conclusion is that the game is unplayable with 3 players and very unbalanced for 4. I will give my reasons and mention the issues we've had.

First, let me compare the core of the game to "The Werewolves of Miller's Hollow", which probably many of you will know. In that game a few players are werewolves, whereas most are simple townsfolk. With many players it can be a blast, but with 3-4 it is pretty much pointless. Additionally, if you aren't a werewolf and don't have any special abilities either, you are basically relegated to the support cast, which can be rather boring. But a game doesn't take long and you can play several in quick succession, so this is not a problem.
A game of BSG though is long, and takes quite some time of setting up. Most likely you will only play 1 game at a time. So if you end up being human, and without any of the offices, maybe even as a pilot, that can be quite annoying.

In all our games the cylons have won, although sometimes it was quite close. It is clear that the players need to cooperate, or the humans won't stand a chance. On the other hand there is always a chance that you will become a cylon later, which at the moment seems to be the best (and maybe only) chance to win a game in our group. Additionally there is the issue of meta gaming, which means that you are forced to make suspicious moves even as a human, or risk having no leeway as a cylon at all.

So in our group the following trends have emerged:
- the player without any office will try to become president, or risk having to watch others make all the decisions
- the admiral will try to get the other office too
- the pilot is annoyed at being the pilot
- the crew will only start to work together, when the cylon is revealed, but in 50% there just is no cylon in the beginning
- somebody goes too far and people start going to the brig

Now a few observations:
- if you land in the brig and you are no cylon, the game is pretty much over for you – no one will get you out, because they will be busy to brig each other
- sitting in the brig and listening to the trash talk of the others is maddening
- in a 4 player game, there is the chance of 2 cylons, which is game over to the humans

All this has culminated in Saul Tigh putting the 2 othes in the brig and taking the presidency twice. Once he was a cylon, the other time he was human. This lead to some heated arguments and feelings were hurt

I’ve read many other threads on the forums, in one a guy was pretty much dressed down for suggesting that the brig element of the game wasn’t that great. In others I got the impression that it seems to be conventional that the crew always cooperates 100%. I suspect the game plays rather differently with 6-7 players, although then the issue with not having an office and in general having less of an effect on the game just deepens.

So I guess my questions would be:
- any ideas?
- has anybody arrived at the same point in this game?
- how could the expansions change our problems?

I just feel we’ve reached an impasse, where it seems impossible that a game night with BSG will end with all participants having enjoyed it.

Well, I wouldn't play BSG with less than 5 players. But that's because there's not enough interaction and surprise with 3 or 4 players. But I wouldn't be surprised if the game mechanics wouldn't work properly with 3 or 4 players.

I think you are playing the game incorrectly.
But really, you shouldn't be fighting amongst yourselves for the titles. For the humans to win, they must play cooperatively and maximize their actions. You should discuss with your group the fact that if you want the humans to have a chance, you must treat it as a cooperative game. Trying to steal the President title wastes both skill cards and actions, and any player who tries to acquire both titles should be treated as a Cylon and brigged. You should also try to avoid having multiple people in the brig at the same time. I'm betting that your group doesn't play XO much since it sounds like everyone is using their actions selfishly.
3 and 4 player games are indeed the least enjoyable for me, but it is certainly not unbalanced for 4 players. One option is for the humans to make sure that at least 1 resource is in the red before the Sleeper phase starts - you can do this intentionally.
If playing a pilot is completely unenjoyable for your group, I would suggest getting Exodus since it gives the pilots a lot more "power" by adding the CAG title.

Condorman, I'm really sorry to hear how unenjoyable BSG has become for your playgroup. I partly agree with Redsimon, inasmuch as I do consider five the ideal number of players, but the game is entirely playable for four players, and if you're using just the core game and its (highly gameable) sympathizer mechanic, a proficient group of players should experience a greater than 50% human win rate in four player games.

In truth, Skowza has already offered some sage advice above and I can't much improve on it so I'll try to elaborate:

When you write of the observed trend of people without power feeling alienated and trying to take titles to avoid the "risk" of watching others make decisions, I'd encourage you to stress to your group that in most cases, those others are *their teammates*. It's the epitome of wastefulness to use the human fleet's resources (movements, cards, actions) in the zero net gain proposition of moving titles back and forth from one human to another, and it's just as wasteful to lose resources in resisting such movements. Such actions are fraught with tremendous risk, as well, since a sleeper cylon can easily fan the flames of distrust, and the more common this musical chair game becomes, the greater the chance of titles passing into cylon hands without alerting the fleet's suspicion as it would in a game where such behavior was not commonplace.

I think a good start toward assuaging the hurt feelings and correcting the dysfunctional playstyle that has emerged might be to do the following next game: choose someone like Apollo (because he's a lowly pilot and because he draws two green), and on every one of your action steps, say "I'm looking to XO someone who can help the fleet with two actions, because we really need... (more cards for skill checks, more jump icons, someone to shoot those ships, the President to raise the resource dials, whatever)" and then let them ask for your XO and give it to one of them. Hopefully this kind of "selfless" behavior (ultimately, it's selfish of course, since doubling the fleet's actions and beginning to play cooperatively greatly enhances your own chance of winning the game) will reverse the culture you describe and lead toward more shared decision making and people becoming less concerned about the "risk" of their teammates taking actions in pursuit of the team's common goals.

(Careful about how you offer the XO, though; some might argue that a specifically worded offer like the above violates secrecy rules, though I consider it fair game.)

Anyway, hope this helps. I'm really curious to hear how things develop for you guys. Let us know?

condorman said:

(Limited experience warning, only a few games, only with four players, only base game)

Regarding these points, at least:

If I was playing a three people and choosing a pilot, I would always pick Apollo. High enough on both the presidency and admiralty lists that either you will be the cylon or be first in line for the other title.

I would try to outlaw Tigh in a 3 player game. Both his abilities seem way strong with fewer other players, and if he was the cylon he could make things unwinnable for the other players. Similarly, it would be really tough to play as Boomer in a 3 player game b/c if you are human 1/2 of your team will be in the brig automatically.

For this game you have to be prepared for some ridiculous cylon victories. We played a game where President Roslin became a cylon sided sympathizer at the sleeper phase. Admiral Bill Adama was next highest in line for president, and a cylon. I was Boomer autobrigged and first move from Presadmiral was to arrest the other human player (? Starbuck). We tried to get out for two or three rounds and then gave up. It was mostly our fault for having everything go so well the first half of the game. With four humans and Boomer and Roslin churning through the crisis deck, things went too smoothly for the humans. That was the game we discovered the sympathizer metagame for even numbers. This game gets more fun and closer in the long run in my experience.

condorman said:

This is actually not true, it kind of works the opposite way - with more players there are more people without titles so it doesn't feel like 1 person is useless. One of the things to remember about this game is that if you're working as a team, having a title does not make your character better or more valuable than others. In fact, sometimes you are worse off having a title than not having one; the President and Admiral are under a lot scrutiny right away because they have the titles. If given the chance to look at someone's Loyalty card, chances are they will be the first choices - why pick a lowly pilot when you can check the Admiral's loyalty? It is also harder to conceal poor choices and attempts to hurt the humans as the Admiral or Pres... how many times can the Admiral choose a 1-distance destination before the other players start to question it? If the Pres is drawing a lot of Quorum cards and not playing anything useful it's going to look pretty shady to the rest of the players. And on the "President/Admiral chooses" Crisis cards, it doesn't mean the Pres/Admiral just makes a choice and the rest of the group has to deal with it; the group should be discussing the options and trying to reach consensus about the best choice. Sure, the decision ultimately rests on the Pres/Admiral, but repeatedly going against the group is probably indicative of silicone pathways to the brain.
Also, the Military and Political Leaders are more likely to have XOs than Pilots or Support, therefore there should be a certain expectation that they XO someone else often. The other characters all have their strengths too, it may just take a bit before they helpful. For example, Chief might seem like a weak character at first since he has no chance at a title and can't even pilot a viper... but once the attacks start, he is often the target of XOs since most other characters cannot draw blue cards. The Armory is damaged and there are Centurions on board? XO the Chief, he can fix it and then start shooting right away, even if he has to move into the Armory.

condorman said:

Pegasus may not be the way to go for your group if you all hate playing pilots; the Pegasus board does make them even more "useless" than the base game since you can waste the Cylon fleet without even getting into a Viper. On the other hand, it does really help the humans in a 4-player game since it introduces some options that aren't available in the base game and probably gives the humans a better chance to win in a 2 vs 2 situation.

Skowza said:

That is one of the most important points. President and Admiral, especially in larger games but also in smaller ones, are constantly under pressure because their actions are questioned more often. Even if they are on the human side they are often brigged or even executed just because they are more closely watched and so everything they do seems suspicious for someone (of course the someone could be a clever Cylon player).

Pegasus may not be the way to go for your group if you all hate playing pilots; the Pegasus board does make them even more "useless" than the base game since you can waste the Cylon fleet without even getting into a Viper. On the other hand, it does really help the humans in a 4-player game since it introduces some options that aren't available in the base game and probably gives the humans a better chance to win in a 2 vs 2 situation.

Exodus, on the other hand side, might be right on - with the Cylon fleet looming, there are five player groups who invest in a second pilot (or at least hybrid pilot like Helo). The added CAG role (gets more actions while in space and places Civilian ships when they appear on the board) also makes the pilot player feel more powerful.

Hi,

Thanks for all the input, we will definitely try again, maybe with a bigger group if possible. This thread has pretty much reinforced my assumption that this game just is not made for 3 players.

Maybe the solution would be to allow "giving up", then painful games wouldn't go on forever. So far we haven't allowed this, as it takes the fun out for the winning player(s).

Most of the games I've played have been base game, 3 or 4 players. I've made a few observations that apply when you're under the 5-player sweet spot. All of them have to do with character selection. Characters that are terrible in 5+ games (which is pretty much all you read about in forums) become the best in smaller games, as certain qualities become VERY important. Character selection is especially critical when you only have a handful:

1) Versatility: You need access to all five colors throughout the game, and you're going to lose a character at some point to a reveal. You don't want that character to, say, take your entire yellow draw with him/her! Characters with big skill spreads, like Apollo, or who draw lots of Politics for Consolidate Power (Roslin) are ideal.

2) Redundancy: Again, you're going to lose someone to a reveal, and with that person, a quarter to a third of your available resources. If your only pilot reveals as a Cylon, s/he'll hammer a virtually defenseless fleet with Cylon attack cards. This makes HELO a virtual "must pick" as Military Leader in small games, so he can serve as a redundant pilot. (If you're the Cylon Pilot, and the Military Leader is NOT Helo, reveal on turn one and hammer 'em with Cylon attack cards and raider activations until the silly humans learn why he should have been). Redundancy is less important with draws, since the really crucial ones are either available on locations (Engineering, Press Room) or drawn by everyone but Boomer (Leadership).

3) "My Turn Only" Abilities: On average, there will always be the same number of turns in a game; fewer players just means each player takes more turns. This means any ability that functions only on a player's turn becomes MUCH more valuable in smaller games: Adama, Helo, Roslin and Boomer all fit the bill. In fact, I consider Roslin and Boomer "small game" characters for this reason: their "my turn only" abilities are only worth their crippling weaknesses when those abilities trigger more often.

4) HELO : Really, the only choice for Military Leader in a 3-player game, and you're taking a risk by choosing anyone else in a 4-player game. His weakness is mitigated by having fewer players; he can XO with a reroll every 3-4 turns; he's the only possible way to have a second pilot in a 3-player game; and he has the sexiest arms this side of an "Iron Will" Skill Card. (Okay, the last applies to games of any size.)

For a three-player game, my go-to character spread is:

• HELO -- See #4, above. (Incidentally, I have no idea whether his OPG can counter Boomer's OPG, but obvious perk if it can.)
• ROSLIN -- Her top ability easily mitigates her devastating weakness in a 3-player game, and she draws max Politics cards to make up for the lack of yellow elsewhere. It's true Cylon Roslin would steal your entire nature Politics draw, but (1) Boomer makes it less likely she's the Cylon, (2) Politics are easily accessible via the Press Room, and (3) if your President is a Cylon in a 3-player game, you're frakked no matter how much Politics you draw
  (Other Political Leaders lack Roslin's recon ability, and draw too few Politics for this spread (Zarek) or increase the likelihood of a Cylon President (Baltar), which is very, VERY bad in a 3-player game)
• BOOMER -- With only three players (one of them Roslin), two characters with Recon abilities will sit next to each other, dampening their abilities to do damage if one turns out to be a Cylon, and letting you burn through jump icons otherwise. It is true that her lack of Executive Order hurts, but her top ability is basically a free action itself, and she can camp out in the Press Room between Cylon attacks, drawing into Politics and then Leadership through Consolidate Power to have "FULL COLORS!" (Yes, this takes actions, but unlike Research Lab, they're worthy actions in themselves, making good use of resources.) Lastly, her weakness is the best way of increasing the odds that your President and Admiral are human, and it's MOST effective in a three-player game (of course, if it works, it screws Boomer over, so some persuasion may be in order...)
  (As for other Pilots, Apollo and Starbuck are viable because of their flexible skill sets, but they're always viable because of their flexible skill sets. In a 3-player game, I think Boomer's abilities especially shine.)

Things get a little more flexible in four-player games, since you can double-up on any character category. I'd likely keep the above mix, as they all benefit from fewer players, and maybe throw in Apollo as a truly versatile character who can fill any holes left by a revealed Cylon/Sympathizer, while also ensuring that any line of succession lands on him instead of stretching someone else too thin by saddling them with two titles. He also draws Politics, assisting Roslin, but this isn't as big a factor as it may appear -- it costs him Leadership to draw Politics, and Boomer's frequent use of Press Room tends to fill her hand with Politics, so Apollo tends to just draw Leadership. Another option is the Old Man himself, since he has a "My Turn Only" ability that benefits from fewer players plus a ton of Leadership. So, IMO, William Adama / Helo / Roslin / Boomer is a solid 4-player spread, as is Helo / Roslin / Apollo / Boomer