Hello, new guy here, enthusiastic about Deathwatch.

Presentations done with...

I was planning on doing a few online RP sessions with a group from another forum. Our GM proposed we pick from either DH, RT or DW. Being the huge space marine nerd that I am, I immediately type "Deathwatch!!!111!!!one". The remainder of the group was more comfortable with either Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader, which is fine in and of itself. I could see myself having fun as an acolyte or space "merchant explorer". However, I got the impression that they believed DW to be all about KILL THE XENOS, BURN THE HERETIC, SPAY AND NEUTER THE WITCH!!!!! and nigh-devoid of roleplay. I haven't played any of those games (no one to play, hence going online), but it seems to me that they're selling this game a bit short as far as RP goes. For those of you who have played one or more of these games, would you agree with their assertion?

I think that mostly it's on the GM. I will agree that the core rules as far as they go have a lot of emphasis on burning the heretic, killing the mutant and purging the unclean. However if the GM is prepared to put a bit of effort in thinking up interesting scenarios you can have a fair amount of roleplaying. particularly good for RP purposes are rescue and bodyguard missions where you are rescuing or working with other imperial characters. I am currently running a campaign set in the great crusade in which I am subtly tempting and providing back story for each character in different ways. The techmarine for example is favoured by the mechanicum and has been rewarded with a conversion beamer, but occasionally they ask him to accomplish side missions based on acquiring tech and delivering it to the mechanicum. The other PC's of the party have not been directly told of what is going on but nor have they been directly lied to at the moment. But then again I play every RPG giving as many character specific side quests as I can, I feel that if the PC's have their own private goals that are not associated with the party their characters have a bit more individuality.

It isn't just on the GM though, the players also need to take every opportunity to play their characters, theres a dying guardsman on the floor, bend down and tell him he has honored the emperor well etc

So to wrap all that up, it's extremely possible to have RP in deathwatch, but the core book does not cover it so well so it requires a bit of thinking outside the box on behalf of the GM and players

Deathwatch is by its very nature a lot more action oriented and combat focused than many other rpgs out there - You are playing a genetically modified, hypno-conditioned killing machine after all... so one has to expect that a fair amount of killing will factor in most game.

That being said, it's certainly not the only combat heavy rpg out there and combat heavy doesn't mean they won't be any roleplaying. You just have to make sure your Marine has a very defined view of things and when he sees something, he speaks his mind... which will then prompt the others to do the same.

It's very important to remember that your character need a strong sense of self in order for roleplay to happen - it is all too easy to forget this and skip on more 'difficult' role play opportunity for the sake of the mission (i.e. My marine think we should help those civilian stuck in a warzone, but doing so will make the mission harder and create conflict with my team mates, so I'll be a team player and shut up... well, yes, you're a team player, but you just passed a really good roleplaying opportunity).

You get out of a role-playing game what you put into a role-playing game. If you enter Deathwatch with the idea that there's no RP, then guess what? There won't be any. If you go in there looking for RP opportunities (be they through demeanours, the way the different Chapters interact, and even enemies and adversaries), then you'll do fine.

BYE

Well, you have to keep in mind what Deathwatch is: a one-class RPG. You're all playing Paladins, so-to-speak (okay, slight exaggeration, Space Wolves are Barbarians, Librarians are Mage-Knights, etc.). That in of itself causes less variation between PCs than in the other two games. Which in turn means the players need to work harder to be distinct personalities.

I created a thread about it in the DH forum, which got promptly derailed and turned into a massive monster of a thread, so I won't refer you to it but post the content of the OP here:

"Okay, my 2 cents about what is different:

Contrary to common miconception, DW can be role-played very well. I had my doubts initially, I voiced them in the DW forum. But I have to say DW can be made to work.

However it is not as easy to make it work as Dark Heresy. In DH, getting into character can come quite easily once you are acquainted with the setting, DW is more challenging.

Why is that? It's because the Space Marines are less shaped by experience than DH characters. Experience can and does shape them but they all have made similar experiences, it's like running a one-class party.

What does it take to make DW work from a players side? You need to focus on inherent/innate character traits. Occasionally you will have PCs whose personality has been shaped by their experience as marine but this is a bit more unusual as Marines are normally quite stable, if not rigid, personalities. Character development can involve such unusual experiences or the struggle against personality defects, working towards perfection without achieving it.

In DH, otoh, PCs are subject to very different experiences of the game world, depending on career. Picking up on these experiences and weaving them into your story is much easier and often requires less thought.

From a GM's perspective DW is also more challenging. You need to pour in work to break up the flow of combat when it gets too monotonous and you need to keep an eye on ensuring things don't get too cliched or predictable.

This is also a necessity in DH as in every RPG but it's not as important as DW and its set nature lends itself to it especially.

Yeah, I like both. Right now, I enjoy the epic feel of DW. But the dirty, low-level feel of classic DH is something not to be missed either."

My advice is: unless your players are sufficiently enthusiastic about it, DW isn't going to work too well for you. If the players are unenthusiastic, they might not put enough energy into creating their own distinct Paladin. DW runs the risk of unenthusiastic, lazy players creating faceless, soulless Space marines.

If you got more players with an attitude like you, OP, DW can be great. And role-playing can be great too.

Alex

Thanks for all the answers, guys. Since I don't have much to add, I'll just leave it at that.

My two cents:

When I tried to summarize the protagonists of the 3 current 40K games, I got this: DH - anti-heroes, RT - adventurers, DW - heroes.

Which is what Space Marines are in my opinion, they are larger than life heroes. I think it helps to keep that in mind.

Being a hero doesn't mean you're flawless, neither in mind nor soul. It just means that when it counts, you ACT like a hero. Think of Hercules or the Argonauts or... 300! All Space Marines!

So, characters in DW might all be brave and competent in battle. But that doesn't mean they can't be thoughtful, furious, petty, philosophical, humourous, jealous, nervous or nice.

Neither does it mean that they can't have personal vendettas, dreams, debates, adventures that cannot be summed up with mission objectives, non-Chapter related friendships or a massage.

Dok Martin said:

Elaborate, please. xD

Gladly.

Imagine a squad of Space Marines - we won't say which chapter, now will we - taking a bath, being massaged, oiled, hair braided by mindful servitors... before they march off to battle. Would be very classical Greek of them, don't you think?

Well, when you put it that way, it does make sense. When you mentioned massage my mind immediately pictured a slightly less dignified and more alongside the lines of a clueless civilian massaging a librarian's shoulders while it studied an ancient tome. I tend to think up silly scenarios.

There are lots of role playing opportunities in DW. It just requires the GM and the PC's to work a little more. To give an example I am presently laying a scenario where the PC' s are required to demonstrate a show of strength to a non Imperial human world that for various political reason the Imperium can't afford to attack right now. And so the PC's the thrust into the middle of a diplomatic mission.

Deathwatch can be played as an all-combat, minimal roleplay game; but that doesn't mean that it must be played that way.

Any argument that starts with "There's no roleplaying in X RPG" is always automatically wrong. Every roleplaying game ever created since the beginning of the hobby has roleplaying in it, that's why they're called roleplaying games. As always, the amount of roleplaying in any game is up to the players and the GM. The players in your group may not like the idea of playing space marines, but that is their own preference and doesn't mean there's no roleplaying in the DW game!

Everyone has his/her preference and wants to play certain types of characters. If DW doesn't have that type of character (let's use a bard, for example), that may mean a particular player doesn't like the game, but not that the game itself lacks roleplaying elements.

When I first thought about making my Black Templars character I imagined the classic stereotype of a Battle Brother completely focused on his devotions to the Emperor and killing stuff.

So I of course gave him the character trait Gregarious. He still is as devoted as the rest of his Brothers but he can have fun partying with a Space Wolf and deal with mortals in a normal capacity.

H.B.M.C. said:

Quoted for truth.

I've seen games run in systems that are traditionally "combat heavy" (coughcoughD&Dcoughcough) that were nothing but RP all night long, and I've seen games run in systems that everyone hails as "RP-centric" that devolve quickly into battle after battle. I've played systems that had charts and tables for everything from hair colour to ricochet patterns, and I've played games that were entirely free form (literally the only rule was "don't godmode your character.")

The amount of role-playing to be experienced in any RPG is entirely dependent on the people playing. Perhaps a little bit more dependent on the GM than the players, since the GM paints the world the players meddle in, but ultimately it's all about the people. No setting, no mechanics, no genre can "limit" people who want to role-play. It's just a question of what stories you want to tell.

If you want to give your friends some examples of how DW might include actual role-play, look at war movies. Thin Red Line, Saving Private Ryan, Enemy at the Gates. Space Marines are soldiers, and these movies illustrate how stories can be told about soldiers without being a non-stop combat-fest all the way through. Maybe Space Marines are a bit more indoctrinated, but that doesn't stop you from telling stories that challenge their faith.

Imagine a game about a group of marines from a single chapter, cut off from their supply lines on some desolate planet near the Eye of Terror, dealing with various efforts of the Chaos gods to try and tempt them to renounce the Emperor. There doesn't need to be a lot of combat there, it can all be psychological, re-enacting the temptations faced by the traitor legions during the Horus Heresey. Maybe one or more of the players will be begging for some combat, but the Chaos entities present won't give them a target to shoot at.

Have the marines storm into a "xeno insurgent camp" expecting to face enemy soldiers, only to find a bunch of Tau kids and defenseless civilians. Sure, the Emperor would say kill them anyway, but if the players are looking for RP opportunities, there's one they can milk for at least a session. It's just a question of how hard they're willing to try.

Steve-O said:

Oh god, not the vespid children fiasco

Narkasis Broon said:

There's a reason why it's a classic.

Steve-O said:

I can already imagine the Black Templar saying: "I'm from Lavega X and I say, kill'em all!" xD

I ran a DW campaign which turned out to have quite a bit of roleplay. Yes, the characters aren't going to be as wildly different from each other as in DH or RT. That doesn't mean they have to be carbon copies of each other, or even of their usual chapter brothers. Think of the number of war stories and mythological tales and the potential for roleplaying if those were games.

LockLock said:

Players often defer too much to the team leader, that's why I tend to play more independent minded PCs in DW. If the team leader is a BT and says "Kill' em all", it doesn't mean I will. Only by treating the leader as first among equals, you get lively player interaction in a number of rounds. Just following orders is too boring.

Alex

LockLock said:

I don't know, how much RP gets done in a normal D&D game?

I can see why they'd be worried about it, DW certainly is much more combat focused than either of the other two games, as easily seen by the rules and marine abilities. But you know what, if all you look at is the rules and character abilities than every version of D&D ever has been nothing but a combat game. Yet somehow it is still the gold standard of RPGs. Clearly there is plenty of roleplaying going on there, even if the rules don't force it and modules don't guide you by hand right too it. The same is true of deathwatch. It can be nothing but a little killfest if that's all you want (which is why it's our group's "Uh... I have no idea what to run today" fallback option) but you can still RP as much as you want under your own initiative if you want.

I'm not currently in a DW game, but let me share an experience from the game I was in recently (it lasted from game launch until 3 weeks ago). Our Kill Team of 11 people (6 players, 5 of us playing 2 marines each) ended up marooned on a scientifically advanced human world that was a former Imperium planet. They in fact had control of most of a full system - 2 inhabited planets, 2 gas giants, an asteroid belt, etc.

We had limited equipment (ie ammo and repair kits), and were, thanks to our Raven Guard team member, well hidden. The planetary government had a VERY large force, including one "Unknown" weapon that was at least as effective as a Meltagun. On the other hand, the rest of their weaponry and vehicles were fairly weak.

We followed, largely, the advice of our Raven Guard brother and the decisions of our chosen Squad Leader, an Ultramarine Tactical Marine. My Blood Angel and our Black Templar brother were... unenthusiastic... about this, as Raven Guard when set against a planet tend towards hit-and-run tactics, sabotage, and terror tactics.

Our Techmarine (the previously mentioned Black Templar) hacked into the planetary datanet and it allowed us to see what the government was doing. We split up into two groups, eventually - ending up on two continents of the primary planet. The smaller group, led by a second Tactical Marine (a Marine Errant, aiming for Chaplain), made contact with members of the system's second class - the remnants of the descendants of the Administratum!

We discovered the history - when the Imperium abandoned the system, the Administratum continued to operate it, but on a local level only. After some centuries, a Chaos cult grew quite large and powerful on the second planet. To fight it, the military of the system took control from the Administratum, destroyed the cult, and decided it liked being in charge. They persecuted the Administratum, and turned them into the system scapegoats.

We ended up in contat with the Adstrata (what the name Administratum devolved into), and masterminding (and driving) a popular uprising, as well as spreading out and neutering the planet's military.

Then we discovered that... the leaders of the planet were in contact with other travellers from outside the system. Chaos worshippers. We had to kill them to get back off-planet.

This took something like 10-12 sessions, overall - I left out a lot of details and minor things. There was a whopping total of 3 combats in this entire mess. One against "tanks" on the second continent, one against the military forces to start off the popular uprising, and a third against the Chaos cultists and CSM's as we were commandeering a vehicle to get off-planet.

Killbeggar said:

Good point. Staying away from stereotypes is a great way to generate roleplaying!

Hey OP, if you are interested, I have a forum game with a very active IC section, ak-73 can attest, and while my campaign is full up, I wouldn't mind letting you RP a marine from another Kill-team. And if anyone dropped, you would be inline to take their place. Just PM me if you are interested.

I'm interested, but.... Try as I might, I can't find a PM option in these forums. :/