Hello, I got another crazy idea today. Maybe it would fit better into the Dark Heresy forums but it is mainly about Space Marines so I put it here. I think everybody has at least once heard, read or seen a movie about a woman who disguises herself as a man to become a pirate, knight, pope, war chariot driver or whatever. Now what would happen if a woman in disguise takes part in the trials a Space Marine chapter holds to find new aspirants, gets chosen and in their fortress the apothecary suddenly finds out that she lacks an Y chromosome?

This thread is not about female Space Marines or how canon your 40k game is, it's just based on the assumption that the common people have no idea about gene seed. So what would happen? I think it would depend a lot on the chapter in question, maybe I'm biased but I think trying something like that with the Black Templars would result in a public, fiery execution for heresy....

I think the space marines would know long before that. In all the books ive read the serfs of the chapter were male, but theres no necesary reason females cant serve the chapter in the same fashion. The only book it came up in is blood reaver where there was a female serf mentioned in the marines errant fortress.

Why should they know before the trials? I think the trials of the Blood Angels have a bunch of humans in radiation suits try to reach a place where they beat the snot out of each other and the Angels take the survivors. Okay, the Space Wolves would probably know because of their good noses.... While I thought about inducting such a women into the serfs, it doesn't seem like something every chapter would do.

if this happen on Fenris...

and if she is strong enough to serve, she can become a serf....maybe a pilot or a captain of vessel.....a gunner......

but not space marine.....

While an interesting idea, it's unlikely to happen. Aspirants are scanned, probed, poked, prodded and otherwise invaded bodily to determine their eligibility for selection as a Space Marine. Even before that, depending on which Chapter the disguised hopeful is being tested by, Aspirants spend a lot of time together. Think about it like boot camp. You eat, sleep, shower, train, and fight together for months on end. The best disguise is gonna crumple under that kind of scrutiny. Eventually, someone is gonna see ya nekkid, to put it in the most basic terms. Even if by some miracle not, one of your fellow Aspirants is gonna catch you out based on your mannerisms. Yes, Space Marines are all super-humanly strong gene-jacked war machines, but generally, they don't select you if you're stupid or unobservant. And so, sadly, we're not soon gonna see Sister-Marine Jane anytime soon, no matter how clever her disguise, because of that scrutiny. You live (and die) under a microscope, where any perceived flaw/liability/presence of unexpected genitalia is magnified a hundredfold.... But that's my two cents on it....

I thin the anwser is quiet simpel:

Option 1: Just kill the girl

Option 2: Make her a Servitor or a Chapter serv

Or they just give her a taxi fare to the nearest order of Sisters of Battle?

Gantz the slaughterer said:

If Space Wolves really have olfactory senses comparable to a dog they are unfortunately the least likely to have something like that happen to them. Even though according to the Ragnar books their way to choose aspirants would be really good for that.

Gantz the slaughterer said:

That's what I wrote in the first post...

Hiro Protagonist said:

THAT she will be found out is the whole point of the question. However passing the initial trial (being chosen for luring a troll into a hut and setting it on fire, beating the snot out of other hopefuls at a blood trial etc) and being chosen to come to the chapter fortress for further trials and testing should be possible. The question is how the Marines deal with it the moment they find out.

Vendettar said:

And which chapter would do what?

Redemption NL said:

Well, normally the Sisters of Battle only recruit from the Schola Progenium and most chapter homeworlds aren't as pious as the Ecclesiarchy would like.

They'd probably just tell her to leave.

Or make her a Chapter Serf, which isn't really as demeaning as the word "serf" would make it seem.

I think it'd depend primarily on what the Chapter in question does with failed aspirants, before the issue of sex was taken in to account.

Tunnelhckrat said:

Little pointer: According to several sources serfs are hereditary population descendant from those potential recruits that failed but did not die. Thus it would seem that vast majority of serfs is actually BORN into serf status, not recruited and failed recruits become serfs only every now and then. This would pretty much mean that approximately 50% of all serfs are female unless they have some habit of killing off all the female babies.

And no, Sisters of Battle are not the place where Space Marines send their females. Sisters recruit almost exclusively from Schola Progenum and Ecclesiarchy in general doesn't share great love or trust towards Astartes so they probably wouldn't take in Astartes handouts anyway.

The odds of even making it past the cut seems very low to me.

I'm not a big fan of the romantized 'woman fighter' that's been pushed on us by media of all kind in the last few decades - I just don't see a woman, no matter how hardy, survive and win a blood trial against a man almost twice her weight. Anybody who's ever practiced a fighting sport will tell you how much of a difference 20 pounds make... I can only imagine how bad it would be for a 120-140lbs woman to fight a 190-220+lbs man in gladiatorial combat... not to mention that blood trial usually implies several such fights, so you can't just count on lucking out here.

This is on top of the fact that most Chapter recruiting world aren't all that advanced technologically - if the typical warrior's garb consist of a loincloth and a club, good luck hiding that she is a female.

Not every chapter recruit via dueling/pit fights, but in most case it's just as difficult and brutal nonetheless - again, romatinc notion of a 110lbs super model kicking linebacker's ass in the comic/movie/books you've seen, there is a reason why the world was dominated by men before technology reached a certain point...

Than on top of that, you have to add the fact that quite often, aspirant have no idea they are actually fighting to become Space Marines. It's not like there's a recruitment board or anything... it's more like the Astartes coming down like Angels from the Sky and taking away the winner(s)... so how would she even know she needs to disguise herself?

But yes, assuming a woman could somehow do the unlikely feat of 'qualifying' without being discovered, odds are she'd just be made into a serf.

Tarkand said:

First of all Space Marine aspirants aren't men, they are boys in puberty. I think at that time some girls actually temporarily outgrow boys, not mentioning that weapons can equalize size differences.

Tarkand said:

Fenris is too cold to run around in a loin cloth. Baal is too irradiated, the only stone age recruiting world I now off is that of the Flesh Tearers.

Tarkand said:

I take again the Fenrisians as example. They know that when a big guy with a wolf skull helmet watches a battle he's going to take the best fighters with him to live with the "Sky Warriors of Russ" or whatever they call them, the Baalites seemingly know even better what the trials are about. And since it seems to be a male-only event disguising herself would be smart so they don't team up on her.

Vendettar said:

Mjoellnir said:

The Black Templars are known for turning failed aspirants into servitors. A deception like this would probably qualify.

Killbeggar said:

But the Black Templars are nutters, and not exactly typical, as much as any Chapter is.

Part, of course, why people love them, gamers not Imperial citizens.

Well, if I'm not mistaken, serfs are usually highly competent people. So, assuming the girl wouldn't be killed for her perceived deception (and considering the young ages at which aspirants are recruited, she could presumably pass as a boy with a girly face until a more observant battle brother notices something's amiss), there could be some sort of niche in the chapter as a serf, if the chapter felt she had talent for something that need be done. My 2 cents.

Balseraph said:

As a Black Templar player I must agree with your assessment.

Since any such deception would fail the instant the clothes come off, I wonder how many chapters spread the rumour that anyone they take will be judged naked. Just to discourage any such attempts.

Bilateralrope said:

Naked judgements are probably not that uncommon, easiest way to check for mutations and imperfections.

Unless the chapter has extraordinarily poor standards for its apothecaries, they are going to figure out that the aspirant has the wrong chromosomes for the geneseed whatever about external appearance. Remember by background the geneseed is tied to "male hormones".

Chapter serfs does not mean "worthless peasant in rags". They might not be space marines, but as per Battlefleet Gothic can be quite well trained and loyal to their masters. So a cut above your average Imperial citizen in fighting ability is more plausible than not. Perhaps equipped with "mortal" versions of their master's weaponry...

Well according to their Deathwatch stats I think serfs are pretty much guardsmen in terms of capability, but I like their Battlefleet Gothic Fluff better. So that would probably be the optimal solution, but most people here seem to agree that at least Black Templars are suboptimal.

Decessor said:

I seemingly completely fail at English. Why are there so many people who don't understand my first post?

Actually, I'd assume that those that serve aboard the Chapter's starships would be the 'elite' of the Serfs.

I'm not talking in terms of any sort of rank, but more that out of all of them they are the ones most likely to regularly experience combat. So a good number of those serving aboart a ship of the Astartes could probably be ranked equal with Storm Troopers, in terms of skill and training.

Of course, it's still a frightening prospect that even the menials, like cooks and groundskeepers are the equal of a trained soldier, and just goes to emphasise the calibre of recruit that the Space Marines take in.

And as for the Black Templars, they're zealous, but the Imperial Creed isn't really hung up on gender (barring divergant sects), so I can't really see them turning someone in to a Servitor just because she pulled a Joan of Arc on them. Or as a standard course for any failed aspirant (gotta get those cooks somewhere, and the Servitors have trouble getting the High Marshal's favourite meal just right).

Yeah, i can't see the deception working... for a start the potential recruits are selected from the finest warriors/gangers/tribals. So i might be wrong but i would assume there would be prity stocky even as boys/teens. Can't imagine there would be alot of women that didn't do alot of drugs that would be stocky enough to be mistaken for a prime male specimin. and most women in on the death worlds and hives that SM's get there recruit's from would have women easily mistaken for women, most women in such cituations would be mothers and even the gangers wouldn't likely be well muscled casue they would never be able to compete with the larger male gangers.

I'm sorry i find the whole idea a little bit odd. As for female serf's, as far as i'm aware serfs are aloud to have relationships with other serf's...

Blood Pact said:

Makes sense.

Blood Pact said:

The Black Templars have this bad image as religious nutjobs, while they don't have to be against women they could see one trying to become a space marine as heresy. At least that's my opinion.

SShocky said:

Where do you get that? I don't know of a single chapter that keeps tabs on who is considered the finest. They hold trials. For the Blood Angels the first trial is to actually reach the place where the trial is held. The Space Wolves simply watch random battles or hear of great feats and get those who in their opinion performed well (sometimes even resurrecting the fallen).

SShocky said:

There is no reason why they should be stocky, in fact I think one of Ragnar Blackmane's packmates was pretty scrawny before the transformation (I think the one who lured a troll into a trap), but I could be wrong, it's been years since I read that book. Muscle mass alone doesn't make a great warrior, and you won't believe it, but a girl who disguises herself as a boy will usually not engage in actions that could result in her getting pregnant, not mentioning that puberty means that she just reached the age where she actually could.

SShocky said:

Yeah, so? Was the question if there can be female serfs? And the idea is odd?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Read

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Joan

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantaghirò

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nefer-Tina#Mummies Nefer-Tina

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulan

Or simply da really big list: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SweetPollyOliver

Are you sure you wanted to write "odd"? Maybe you meant "old".

Aspirants for Astartes are optimally pre-pubescent boys. As I recall canon, the process doesn't work on girls at all. Unless you want to dip them in FEV to make Super Mutants(oops, wrong universe). Size between boys and girls is much less an issue at this point making moot the height/weight issue. I'll agree that a girl won't be foisted to the Sororitas for societal issues, but a serf of the Chapter, trained agent of the Chapter, or sent to an Assassin Temple, possible. Never toss away someone with that drive, capability, and promise.