As I mentioned in my previous post, my group is playing a house-ruled CSM game using the DW system, and we have converted some of the powers from the awesome 2002 Chaos Codex. I posted psychic powers earlier ( www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp ), and here are some powers we cooked up from the daemonic gifts and gifts of chaos sections. For those of you running straight Deathwatch, you might find these useful or interesting for powerful Chaos antagonists in your game. XP costs have been included to indicate power level and should people want to buy them as elite advances. Constructive comments are always welcome.

Important Note: some of the flavor text is from the 2002 CSM codex, by Andy Chambers, Pete Haines, Andy Hoare, and Phil Kelly.

Daemonic Gifts

Daemonic gifts can only be purchased once.

Daemon Armour (1500 XP)
The character's Chaos Space Marine armour has been blessed and sealed by the Chaos Gods and is therefore considerably more powerful.

The value of the armour is increased to 12 all over.

Daemonic Aura (1000 XP)
The character is permanently surrounded by a personal force field, drawn from the power of the warp, which distorts space in random patterns, providing a 33% miss chance against all attacks.

Daemonic Essence (1500 XP)
The energy of the warp courses through the character’s flesh, strengthening him with daemonic might. His total wounds increase by 7.

Daemonic Fire (500 XP)
The character may project powerful warp flame from his hands, eyes or mouth. He gains a natural attack, which he can make at will, which possesses the same profile as an Astartes Heavy Flamer, with the following exceptions: the daemonic fire can only target one enemy, and the character must roll BS to hit. If the target is hit, he must roll Agility as usual to avoid being caught on fire. This weapon can be used in melee combat, and can be used with multiple attack talents as a secondary weapon.

Daemon Flight (400 XP)
The character is able to fly on mighty daemonic wings. It gains the Flyer (15) trait.

Daemonic Rune (1500 XP)
The Chaos Champion has been gifted with a Daemonic Rune, a mighty symbol of the power of the Dark Gods. Their power flows through the rune demonstrating the favour conferred on the Champion. Such an individual has been marked for greatness and cannot easily be killed. The character cannot suffer more than 1 Critical wound from any single attack.

Daemonic Stature (5,000 XP)
The character is transformed into a hulking, daemonic monstrosity, resembling the Daemon Prince he is perhaps destined to become. The character’s size is increased one category, and the character gains + 10 Strength, +10 Toughness, +20 Weapon Skill, and gains +2 Pen on all close combat attacks. In exchange, he loses -10 BS.

Daemonic Steed (800 XP)
The character has a daemonic steed bound to him by his daemonic patron. It manifests from the energy of the warp, and obeys the character’s every command. Should the steed be killed, a replacement will manifest the following day, or immediately if the character spends a fate point. The nature of the steed depends on the Mark of chaos which he bears:

Mark of Chaos Undivided provides any of the steeds listed below.

Mark of Khorne grants a Juggernaut of Khorne (see Dark Heresy: Creatures Anathema, page 120)

Mark of Slaanesh bestows a fiendish mount of Slaanesh (see Fiend of Rapture, Disciples of the Dark Gods, page 136).

Mark of Tzeentch supplies a Disc of Tzeentch

Mark of Nurgle grants a Beast of Nurgle

Daemonic Speed (1,000 XP)
The character gains mutations which allow him to move at incredible speed. The character doubles his base speed.

Daemonic Strength (1,000 XP)
The character’s muscles bulge with daemonic might. He gains +10 strength.

Daemonic Talons (400XP)

The character gains vicious talons and/or horns. This confers the Natural Weapons and Improved Natural Weapons traits.

Daemonic Venom (400XP)
(Prerequisites: Daemonic Talons) Horrific poisons generated by the warp ooze from the character’s talons, horns or other unnatural appendages. The character’s natural weapons gain the toxic quality.

Daemonic Visage (1,000 XP)
The character’s visage becomes truly terrifying. He gains the fear (1) quality. This talent can be purchased multiple times, each time it increases the character’s fear quality, to a maximum of Fear (4).

Daemonic Ascension (6,666 XP)
Prerequisites
Skills: Command +20, Forbidden Lore (Daemons, Warp) +20, Intimidate +20, Speak Language (Unholy Tongue).
Talents: Daemonic Visage X4, Mark of Chaos (any).

Special: the character must be chosen to be a daemon prince by the gods.

The character becomes a daemon prince, achieving the pinnacle of his career. When physically manifest, the character possesses a vaguely humanoid form, a manifestation of pure warp energy which features characteristics derived from the Daemon Prince’s own personality and his daemonic patron.
He gains the following Traits, if he does not have them already: Brutal Charge, Daemonic, Dark Sight, From Beyond, Size (enormous), Unnatural Strength (increase multiplier to X3), Unnatural Toughness (Increase multiplier to X2), The Stuff of Nightmares. The newly-ascended Daemon Prince gains Armour of Chaos (12) to all locations, triples his wounds, and can manifest a weapon of his choosing at will with the following profile: Melee; 2D10+7 R or I; Pen 6; Felling.

The character can now make possession attacks, as per the rules in Dark Heresy pages 331-332. He must spend a fate point to initiate the possession attempt. If successful, he becomes incorporeal and his essence enters the victim.

If the Daemon Prince should be slain, he is dissolved into the warp, and must burn a fate point to reconstitute himself in physical form, after which he can reappear anywhere where the warp energies are strong enough. If he should run out of fate points, then he has displeased the forces of Chaos and his essence is recycled and his soul subsumed into the warp.

Gifts of Tzeentch

Eye of Tzeentch (400XP)

The champion bears a third eye either somewhere on his body or on his wargear. It provides the character with precognitive abilities, allowing him to re-roll one of the following: one Dodge, one Parry, one attack, or one damage roll once per combat.

Gifts of Khorne

Feel no Pain (1500XP)

Some followers of Khorne are able to focus their rage to the point that nothing except their total obliteration will stop their rampage. The character gains a power that is mechanically identical to the Blood Angels Chapter Defensive Stance of the same name, albeit with the following changes: the ability is a Solo Mode power which effects only the user, and can be activated with a fate point, lasting a number of rounds equal to WP bonus.

Rage of Khorne (1000XP)

The Champion is so consumed by the need for battle that its rage builds and builds until it can be released in the first frenzy of close combat. The character can use swift attack or lightning attack actions on a charge, and activating Frenzy is a free action.

Gifts of Nurgle

Nurgling Infestation (1000XP)

Champions of Nurgle are frequently accompanied by swarms of Nurglings eager to feed off the flakes of dead and diseased flesh they trail behind them. The Nurglings make an attack every round against all adjacent enemies in combat with the character, with the following profile:

Melee; 1d10+7 R; Pen 3; Special, Toxic (1D10).

Special: A victim who suffers damage from a Nurgling’s attack must pass a challenging Toughness test (+0) or suffer a virulent disease, losing 1d5 points of Toughness permanently.

Miasma of Death (1500XP)

The character exudes a miasma of disease. Enemies within 6 meters of the character must pass a Toughness test each turn or suffer 1D10 damage which bypasses armour and Toughness. Individuals with the Mark of Nurgle and all Daemon Packs, Possessed, Daemon Beasts and Greater Daemons are immune, as are those in environmentally sealed armour.

Toxicity (1500XP)

The character is so bloated with toxins that it infuses his entire being, including his weapons and equipment. Add the Toxic (1D10) Quality to all of his attacks. If an attack already possesses the Toxic quality, these effects stack (to a maximum of Toxic 2D10)

Gifts of Slaanesh

Allure of Slaanesh (1000XP)

The character can take the following action during combat, which uses a Full action: select a single enemy within 12 metres (+ Fellowship mod) of the character and make a contested Fellowship test against the enemy’s WP. If the enemy fails, it is entranced, and must move as quickly as possible towards the character in its next turn, using the entirety of that turn and ignoring penalties for difficult terrain, stopping immediately in front of the character if possible.

Aura of Acquiescence (500XP)

Champions with this gift are wrapped in the glamour of Slaanesh. Such is their magnetism that their enemies subjugate their own survival instinct to the will of the Champion even if their cause is hopeless. Enemies who want to flee the character with this power must make a contested WP roll against the character’s Fellowship, failure means they must remain in combat.

Fuelled by Pain (1500XP)

Pain serves only to heighten the Slaanesh Champion’s combat prowess. If he is attacked and wounded, after armour and Toughness have been calculated, he can immediately Counter-attack with no penalty.

New Psychic Power:

Twisting Path ( 1000XP)

Action: Full
Opposed: Yes
Range: PR X 4 metres
Sustained: No

The Sorcerer is preparing the way for Tzeentch's Grand Design. This power requires line of sight to activate; if he chooses, the Sorcerer can apply a Blast radius between 1 to 10 to the power. The target/s suffer an unsettling waking dream in which they betray their friends and ally themselves with the Dark Powers. Make a contested WP test for the target/s against the Sorcerer’s WP; if they fail they are Pinned until the start of the Sorcerer’s next turn. The power has no effect on creatures which are immune to Pinning.
The main effect of this spell is far greater though. While they are ensorcelled, the Sorcerer pulls information from the targets' minds, establishes post-hypnotic suggestions to use later and alters their memories or perceptions to achieve some ineffable goal. Against those who fail to resist this power, the Sorcerer gains a permanent +20 bonus to all Willpower and Fellowship-based tests.

Hope you enjoy these

So....CSMs are better than normal SMs?! Or do CSMs have increased costs for normal skill buys or statistics?

Siranui said:

Well if CSM want any of these they have to buy them with exp. Which means SM can excel in other areas because they will have more exp to spend.

Here's my breakdown.

Daemon Armour: Just Artificer armour, no problem here.

Daemonic Aura: By miss chance do you mean force field, coz it would be crazy if I can stack these.

Daemonic Essence: 7 wounds for 1500xp is crazy good... overpowered.

Daemonic Fire: No real issue here.

Daemon Flight: Anon

Daemonic Rune: Fluffy, though perhaps a bit too good. Would need play testing to find out. Sounds like a good NPC ability though.

Daemonic Stature: I think the TT influenced this too much. Why gain/lose WS/BS because I got larger. You could greatly reduce the 5000xp price tag by just having a Strength, Toughness and size buff. If you feel that’s not cool enough an effect, maybe have a fear rating or some such. Perhaps have an Air of authority like effect for daemonic mastery?

Daemonic Steed: Are there rules for the Tzeentch and Nurgle mounts?

Daemonic Speed: Should be unnatural speed.

Daemonic Strength: Should be unnatural Strength

Daemonic Talons: Sort of useless given unarmed master but still cool.

Daemonic Venom: No worries here.

Daemonic Visage: Not sure of price, though fear can end a horde fight pretty fast. Still, I personally would never buy it.

Daemonic Ascension: Factoring in the prerequisites of Daemonic Visage x4 this costs 10,666exp. Secondly, it could be represented much better by simply buying daemonic gifts. I have daemonic size, strength, toughness, armour stature and a demon weapon, and I’ve got nearly everything I would get from this talent except tripling my wounds and possession.

Also, you have to save 6,666 exp after meeting the prerequisites, which means buying nothing for a looooooong time. I really feel Ascension should be based on a collection of gifts and not on an exp outlay.

Eye of Tzeentch: Cool.

Feel no Pain: Very good but exp cost balances it imo.

Rage of Khorne: This is okay, don’t know how well it synergies if you have preternatural quickness.

Nurgling Infestation: Seems cool to me.

Miasma of Death: This looks okay but maybe 1000exp is a better cos as nurgling infestation seems better and cheaper.

Toxicity: Seems cool, I only dislike the name.

Allure of Slaanesh and Aura of Acquiescence: Cool with me.

Fuelled by Pain: Only in melee I assume? If so sounds good with a reasonable exp cost.

Twisting Path: My only issue with this is PR only seems to affect range. How about “Against those who fail to resist this power, the Sorcerer gains a permanent 4xPR bonus to all Willpower and Fellowship-based tests.”

Saraneth said:

Except that not only do CSMs have everything that normal SMs have to spend their xp on and more, but many of these additional options are cheaper than regular SM advances for no real reason. eg: +10 Str for 1000xp on top of normal advances. Rage of Khorne gives a rank 8 ability and then some much earlier than other marines can get it.

Whereas many of the new options are simply way to cheap. For example: Flight. for 400xp.

All in all, they are unbalanced with the main marines, and give the feel that the CSMs are simply 'better', as they don't seem to loose out on anything.

Siranui said:

Why should they be balanced with Deathwatch marines?

Why should they be *better* than Deathwatch marines?

Siranui said:

This.

Siranui said:

Because "better" is a meaningless word if no comparison will ever take place.

You're never going to get a loyalist player sitting alongside a traitor player and complaining that he's underpowered. A Deathwatch marine and a Chaos marine are never going to team up, and doing so would be kind of against the point if you're making the house rules to play Chaos marines.

There is no scenario I can imagine where mechanical balance between the Deathwatch core rules and some Chaos house rules is going to be relevant. The two are never going to be measured against each other. You're either playing a game where everyone is a traitor marine, in which case balance with Deathwatch isn't a concern because no-one is playing a Deathwatch marine, or you're using these rules to customise some Chaos antagonists, in which case gripes about XP cost and "getting something for nothing" are pointless because antagonists aren't limited by XP expenditure or advance tables.

Except that there's no internal balance there either. Overly strong options cease to be options. eg: Flying for 400xp. +10 Str the easy way, instead of buying advances...

The 40K fluff also does not support the idea of Chaos Space Marines being considerably more powerful than their loyalist brothers.

Agreed, though there has to be some correction here.

TT does not favour CSMs, but the fluff would tend to make them a very short bit individually stronger than the loyalist ones. But that's not inherent, that's because CSMs are generally older and as such more experienced in average - natural selection, and all that.

So I would be much more encline to enforce balance BUT give a bit more XP to the CSMs. Although if you just play a new CSM who has just been created, he should really be on par with the loyalist Space Marine

Siranui said:

Then your criticism should have been that there was no internal balance, not that there was no balance with Deathwatch.

Nice backtrack, though.

harlokin said:

Something that no-one seems to be addressing is that the players using these rules won't have access to Chapter advance tables, Deathwatch advance tables, Chapter squad and solo mode abilities, Codex and Chapter psychic powers, relics, Imperial vehicles, techmarines, and most wargear available for requisition from the Deathwatch armoury, such as special ammunition . In fact, if you're playing Chaos properly you'd start the game with inferior Mark V armour and wouldn't use Requisition at all.

So it's a little silly to look at rules for Daemonic gifts and complain that Chaos is getting something for nothing when really there's a hidden trade-off involved. You get warp gifts, Marks and daemon weapons, but you also lose out on most of the toys that Deathwatch marines get to play with.

Saraneth said:

OK, let me address your comments:

Yes, Daemonic aura is a force field effect, and thus would not stack with other force fields. Should have made that clear.

Daemonic Essence: I concede that it is very good. Maybe 5 wounds? That would still be impressive but less extreme a HP gain.

Daemonic Runes is intended for total badasses and bosses, which is why it is so powerful. It would handily negate the ability of a bunch of PC's to put down a boss in one round, and if used by the PC's, would allow for some craaazy over-the-top combat shenanigans. But yes, it does need play-testing,

Daemonic Stature is expensive, but it was intended to be a power which massively transformed your character. You have persuaded me that the cost is excessive. Any ideas on how it could be toned down and made cheaper?

Daemonic Steed: no, unfortunately I haven't gotten around to making houserules for Nurgle and Tzeentch mounts, though I will try to soon. A good source for daemons that uses a very similar system to DW is Black Industries' Tome of Corruption. Get a hold of that one and you can easily adapt the beasties to DW or DH.

Daemonic Speed: no problem with that change.

Daemonic Strength: The only problem you would have if you changed this to Unnatural Strength is that if it stacked with the Unnatural Str SM already have, you would be looking at some crazy melee damage.

Daemonic talons: the fluff made me put this in. Although allowing it to be upgradeable with various weapon qualities - rending, tearing, warp, etc - might make it more viable as an option.

Daemonic Ascension: you got me, I put this in here to freak people out. Also because I like the number 6,666. I fully agree that Daemonic Ascension should be based on combining a series of Daemonic gifts, good idea.

Miasma of Death: no worries with an XP reduction.

Change the name of Toxicity to Armoury of Putrefaction and it sounds cooler!

Fuelled by pain: yes, melee only.

Twisting Path: agreed, it's always good to base effects off PR.

Thanks for the input!

I should also address Siranui's problem with flight for 400XP. Consider that DW marines can requisition jump packs for free (no XP), and that they also give you the flyer trait in addition to other special abilities. So if anything I think that Daemon wings are underpowered, and were mainly included in the first place for story reasons - daemonic wings are cool.

Re the dispute over game balance, I'm not sure what more I can say that Bastard of Melbourne hasn't so brilliantly argued already, except I find it bizarre that people think simply stating 'it's overpowered' is a constructive form of criticism.

Looks like a great way to make a chaos marine a tougher enemy. It would be great to see a daemon weapon upgrade.