I have several problems with requisition system as it stands now. The idea itself is cool and okay. The stuff isn't actually something the Space Marines own, so they should get it only on mission-per-mission basis and I kind of like the idea that top-notch professionals can choose their own tools. However, I've found several issues that really bother me:

#1 Personal requisition leads to players using their RPs to buy "cool" items they feel that suits their own character concept even though the same items might be totally wrong for the mission in hand. This doesn't contribute anything to Kill Teams functioning and developing as a team or actually getting better equipped for the actual mission.

#2 Requisition limits on points and/or renown lead to players first buying items and then planning the mission somehow strangely and with more focus on the gear they can buy instead of focusing on the actual mission, its objectives and how to accomplish them. I've actually seen viable plans scrapped at the planning table just because, for example, after getting jump packs for everyone the team wouldn't have had enough RPs for every bit and piece they felt their individual characters absolutely needed.

#3 Players with a bad case of Munchkin buy their equipment focusing purely on how much [+whatever it] gives to their [insert a talent/abilty/skill], instead of actually thinking what their mission is and how they are going to do it as a team.

#4 The requisition "equipment lists" are very weapon-focused and, as a result of mission planning being "requisition-focused" instead of "objective-focused" seem to limit the players imagination in planning. If there is not melta bombs or grav chutes in the requisition equipment list no-one even bother to ask GM if they are available.

So, I'm still on a borderline, thinking if I should change the requisition system or just scrap it alltogether in favor for something else. Anyone else has any similar or wildly different experiences or opinions to share?

We are having the same issues to a great extent. First they will pick the weapons they want in the most expensive version possible (Master-crafted + all sights and gadgets). Then they will get a clip or two of Hellfire ammo (usually). If then they have anything left, they will look into what things they can get extra that might benefit the mission.

I have two guys that try and get some things for the mission like EMP grenades and demolitions. But I think it just feels too expensive for the players to buy these things, compared to get the fully blinged-out weapons that they covet. I have not tried it from a players POV yet, so I do not know if that's just hot it feels on that side of the screen.

I have no clue how to solve it. I have been thinking of either giving them a list with prices at 50% discount, that would be useful for the objectives (but that would require even more work from me for every mission), or to give them less personal requisition points and then a Group-pool which can only be used for items that are not useful in a normal firefight. This would still be possible to get demolitions, emp grenades and such. But hopefully it would also include more jetpacks, suspensors and whatnot)

PS: Because my players loved to play scouts, I also gave them all the option to buy a "commando"-set for their players as Signature Wargear (Camo-cloak, suspensor, 1 stummer, 1 magnocular or grapnel). That was one way to have those items more in play, but I would prefer a greater difference from game to game.

I would agree that here arn't enough cooling things to buy in the core book and It seem whenever I get something my armour or general space marine awesomeness does it already. More options would be nice and we have just start using the assets in RoB which look fun.

I don't think the system is all that flawed. Munchkins will always find away around any system anyway(in my experience). When I'm squad leader I insist that we look at what we need as a team first and provided that we have what we need I'm for bringing along whatever we can get our hands on (out of character). My GM (or when I am the GM) makes it quite clear what is avaible before we do req. which severse as a reminder.

As a final point if the player forget stuff they need, there going to suffer. If they don't learn then they will end up a certain creek with out the prevbal paddle possibly down a few fate points hemoraging renown for all those objectives they missed. On the other hand if the missions are completed with success then whos to say they brought the wrong kit?

Munchkins are going to look for maximum utility out of requisition regardless of what makes sense in character or the system. My take on requisition is that there is very little gear that is actually *necessary* to complete any given mission that isn't going to be automatically assigned to the killteam. A DW marine with "just" starting gear has at least a chance against any enemy in the game. If a killteam spend their requisition on "RP appropriate" items, then fine, give them the absolutely necessary gear in addition to requisition and then however much requisition seems appropriate to spend. If a Watch Captain thinks a killteam must have climbing gear, it's a bit odd he'd give the killteam the option not to take it in favour of hellfire rounds.

I think it's a great system, myself.

Players do of course want 'their' weapons, but the custom wargear talents help mitigate the issue.

Have you tried giving players a pool of total points and NOT individual points?

I'd also recommend regularly having situations where there is an obvious need in the planning stage for certain gear, and to bone players who neglect it. If they're told they'll be dropped in a huge jungle to navigate through and don't take a cartograph, or neglect to take restraints when attempting to catch prisoners, then it should cost them, even to the point of failure if they're stupid about it.

And in reverse, some pieces of equipment should simply take certain problems off the table. Reward players for taking the right gear by making it really good for them, even to the extent of waiving dice-rolls.

"You've got a cartograph? Great: It's got an inertial compass and you can perfectly map and backtrack your way through the maze-like cave system. Don't make a map: I'll draw it for you, or let you look at mine. No need for a navigation roll." Brilliant! They'll take it again next time. "You've got restraints? Well, they cost 10 req and are designed to hold anything the Deathwatch face, so of course the prisoner is secure. Yes: It's got a built-in gag... and...why, sure it can have an electro-shock thingy to keep feral critters in line. No: It can't make a strength check to escape, because it's too secure."

Rather than a tool for munchkinism, it's a great tool from training players away from that line of thinking and general loot-whoring. If a cartograph is responsible for 'scoring' them an objective, then it's just earned them XP and renown far more effectively than 'Moar Dakka'. Players can really come to appreciate the value of generic gear. As a GM though, you have to really give them their money's worth. If they spent enough Req on stuff that they could have spent it on a plasma cannon instead, then so long as it's appropriate gear, it needs to be as useful as that plasma cannon. Make them feel like they're getting their money's worth, and they'll buy more generic kit. Make it useless and don't be surprised when they spend it all on more weapons next time out.

Don't forget to let the players know that they can burn renown for extra Requisition, too. It's a good thing to do.

As gm I don't have any problems with requisition method of arming, but its more achievement of great RP of my gaming group tbh.

First when mission is given to KT, all decide in what way it will be done, (stealth, assault, tank shock ect.) then leader is chosen, marine with skill in tactic being most appropriate for mission is often designated KT leader, then they plan mission and what wargear they will need for it. If leader decide that mission demands that all marines need to take jump packs as gear, all will take them, no matter that u have Vorpal heavy bolter +5 and u cannot use it with JP, no matter that your marine prefer termie armour, or you have personal blessed custom mastercrafted servo harness of doom. KT leader word is Law.

If mission will take place where renegade astartes were sighted leader my decide that beside usual bolters one member of KT should take plasma gun (our house ruled PG) for increased fire power in case of meeting such individuals, and one of better KT marksman's is given that weapon, no matter that he would prefer MC thunderhammer or pair of lightning claws.

But after all KT members will be armed with gear demanded for mission, remaining points are theirs, and they may do with them all they want. U want take bonus melee weapon or upgrade something, its your call. U want to trade few grenades so u will have more place for ammo? your call.

In case of Signature gear i have different method, u don't pay exp for talent that grants you gear, you use your reputation points as sort of cash that u can exchange for gear u want.

Like I said in the tech skill thread I don't think there is any gain to be had in forcing players to choose between Combat Awesomeness and... Other Stuff.

Trying is only going to make both players and GM miserable.

I recomend having separate pools for headline combat bonus items and other gear to ensure that players are not giving up killing ability to take interesting gadgets.

And seriously, there is no better time in all of gaming to munch out than when playing a Space Marine.

Polaria said:

Sounds like the problem isn't the system but the people who are supposed to make good use of it. Requesting the right equipment is a strategic choice. You may want to consider letting the chips fall where they may. I'd give the players a fair warning before requisitioning though.

Alex

Maelflux said:

You are aware that this works as a chicken game between players and GM, right? The players don't pick what's vital for the mission if they can rely on the GM intervening so they don't fail miserably if they only buy the cool toys instead. There is two possibilities:

- either you accept it. The give the players a reduced amount of req (50 to 75%) to buy their toys with and assign mission critical equipment. It takes away a strategical choice (=challenge) from the game though.

- or you tell the players that they won't be saved if they don't request vital equipment. In that case you must be prepared to have them crash the hard way.

It's like you are driving down the lane and your players come right at you with their car, expecting you to dodge although you are driving the bigger truck. Decide whether you want this to be a scenario challenge or not. If yes, stick to it.

Alex

Each of my players gets 75% of his normal Requisition points (so, for example, 75 points if his total would normally be 100) which can be spent on anything. The other 25% is combined with everyone else's 25% to create a pool of Requisition that has to be spent on gear (no weapons allowed). So, a Kill-team of 4 would each have 75 points and a then divvy up a pool of 100 points on gear that they think is needed for the mission. If the mission is supposed to be a quick drop-in-and-kill-the-enemy-commander sort of thing, then the team gets their normal full amount and can focus on getting weapons and ammo.

It's probably not necessary now, but I started it in the beginning so that the players would look over and learn what sort of gear was available for them to use. I try to give them hints about what could come in handy, based on what their characters know about the mission.

I'll elaborate a bit. So far I've only run three missions. In the first one I used the requisition system by the rule book and hated it. First of all players complained about the low number of requisition points an d secondly they used literally one whole night in actually buying the equipment. they didn't make really bad choices, but it seemed a bit silly.

Second mission I went and organized a "closed" requisition. To reduce the "marke-place syndrome" I didn't tell them exact number of requisition points but instead I had them write out a list of equipment for whole team and put it into order of preference. Then I dealt out the equipment according to how much RPs they really ahd. It was a huge mess. The planning stage was nightmarishly chaotic and the one guy elected responsible for writing down the list actually did somehow miss to write down several pieces they thought necessary to have.

Third mission in I just threw out the whole system for a while to sort my thoughts. I put the third mission as a continuation straight from the second one. They didn't have time to visit any Watch Station for re-arming so I just let them plunder their Destroyer transports storage for ammunition and few pieces of general-issue gear (like auspex, apothecary tools and so on). That was the only time half of the mission time didn't go into bickering and haggling over requisition and the mission actually went promptly.

My problem is really twofold:

1) I really like the general idea of requisition and the concept of marines being professionals who are allowed to chooce their tools according to certain "budget" available for each mission. However, I hate it if we have to spend one whole evening planning and requisitioning equipment for each mission.

2) Sometimes the requisition system sounds silly. I do get it that plasmaguns are rare and they don't want to deal them out just like that, but the problem is that RP also applies to "common" equipment which should be plenty and quite easily available. Somehow the idea of "grappling hook and wrist watch? Sorry, you already got the plasmagun so its no more for you" seems silly to extreme.

Brand said:

We tried to use this approach last night, and my players really liked it! They spend more time in "group-mode" trying to figure out what would help them better as a team with the group pool, so we will definately use this approach for future games as well. I only used appx 15% of their total though, but I intend to change this on a per-mission basis.

@AK-73: I agree on what you say, but having played with these guys for maaany years I also know when it's just better to try and tweak the system instead of their mindset. Hopefully this way will do the same, but in a less crash-and-burn manner

Polaria said:

It sounds like a player issue, to be honest.

Firstly though, please check the errata for the updated Requisition.

Secondly, remind players, that as per RoB they can spend permanent Renown in exchange for more Requisition.

Thirdly... stop them faffing around so much. Get the team leader to take responsibility for 'putting in the logistics request' and getting a pen and paper and writing a legible central list of kit, that they then hand to you. This shouldn't take all night if dealt with properly. You give them the mission, they should spend about 5 minutes familiarising themselves with it, perhaps another 30 getting a vague action plan together, and no more than another 30 requisitioning.

Set them a time limit. Be generous first time, and give them 90 minutes from briefing to 'shops closing' and blast off. Then give them 60 thereafter.

DW is supposed to be about ACTION, not arguing over who carries a plasma gun. Again: There really is no reason for the faffing around. Is the issue that you're giving per session XP perhaps, and thus they have no motivation to hurry? Inform them that they get XP per objective, and remind them that if they are spending the session 'shopping', they are essentially getting no XP for it.

We've had similar problems with requisition in our campaign and it's not due to the players lingering over the selection of gear. They like the action in DW and want to get stuck into the mission itself after receiving their briefing. However the requisition phase brings the pace of the game to a screeching halt while people pass around the rulebook. It's gotten better over the course of the campaign as the players have developed a 'standard loadout' that they modify for each mission.

Our latest solution is to get the requisition phase out of the way in our own downtime. Using Alex's excellent DW gear cards :

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=179&efcid=3&efidt=419783

I email the players prior to the game with the requisition total for the next game and the general 'type' of enemy they can expect to meet (Tyranid, chaos, tau etc) based on the intelligence from the mission briefing. So when the players turn up at the table they can just dive straight into the scenario itself.

As the problem lies with the players themselves and not the system (in my opinion, anyway), I'd also suggest going with the "let them reap what they sow" mentality. If they're foolish enough to put mission objectives and how to achieve them last, let them feel the brunt of their mistake. Really, it often takes nothing short of everything really going to hell that players will learn the error of their ways, and indeed, I have an anecdote I'd like to share in this regard.

Several years ago, I was once involved in a Shadowrun campaign. During character creation, the GM warned us not to focus too heavily on combat and to consider other things like daily living. In the end, I think I was the only person who heeded his advice.

For the record, my character's cover identity was a hermeticist who performed enchanting and alchemy for a living. The things I did to back this up during character creation was to:

1. Buy a good quality fake ID (rating 6 in game terms)

2. Avoid any moderately to highly illegal gear for which I couldn't obtain a permit or otherwise easily explain away

3. Purchase permits for the restricted gear I did get

4. Establish a background where my character frequently had to work with valuables (her foci typically took the form of jewelry, and never mind all of the orichalcum she makes and uses)

Well, the campaign began, and the second run was botched in the most spectacular fashion possible. As a result, we had to cross back into UCAS territory and was caught by the UCAS border patrol in the process. Of those of us detained, I was the only one who got to walk out of there (with all my stuff, no less). Everybody else was detained indefinitely. The reason? I was the only person who had a plausible story and who could back it up. See, I passed on a story about how I was kidnapped for my skills as an enchanter, and that the light pistol and hunting rifle among my possessions was for personal protection (with the latter being used in wilderness areas). Since everything was in order, I was free to go.

The other folks, on the other hand, had no IDs whatsoever, for one, and were all sporting mil-spec, highly illegal gear for another. As a result, they were detained indefinitely with no possibility of release; as far as the UCAS authorities were concerned, they didn't even exist. As might be guessed, the affected players had to create new characters, and perhaps not surprisingly, the first thing they all did was to get fake IDs.

-Kirov

In my experience, most DW players go for the 'shootiest gunz' & 'choppiest axes' they can get their hands on, then switch to means of increasing their mobility (rhino transports, bikes, jump packs or whatever) and - finally, if they have any Requisition left - start looking for the'weird stuff' (such as chameleonine cloaks, plasma torches and other specialist equipment).

It is to be expected. When you're playing space marine, you want your character to be a conquering hero, not some cowardly assassin always clinging to the shadows. Granted, being a hero doesn't mean being clinically insane, charging a pack of carnifexes with your trusty "Shiny Bayonet +100 to Delusion skill", and a player would probably be unable to take on the entire enemy army head on... But let's face it: few players would choose a stealth mission over going right in with their guns blazing, mercilessly crushing the enemy under their feet. There are exceptions of course, but like Lenin said 'small is the circle of these revolutionaries, and far removed they are from the people'

With this in mind I usually did two things when it came down to 'shopping':

1. Offer KT an opportunity to be provided with the absolutely necessary specialist equipment for free. So if they should sneak around a lot, they get their cloaks, if they need to blow a tank column, they get a few melta-bombs, etc. If players have a sound plan that requires none of the offered items, they just refuse and go ahead with their own choices.

2. Ask each player to describe where exactly he stores all the equipment on his person. Trust me, nothing cools a 'stuff-hungry' player's head like all his EMP-grenades and melta-bombs he heaped upon himself blasting him to shreds after a single lucky shot from that grot sniper.

Also, you should consider allowing the KT (not individual players, but group as a whole) to create a 'hidden stash' of treasured items; much like the 'private storehouses' the veteran soldier groups make for themselves during prolonged campaigns. These should never be the items bought with Requisition, for these should be accounted for and returned to the Armoury after the mission. But if player wants to keep that meltagun he stumbled upon on the battlefield and if A). his group would not 'sell' him to the quartermaster and B). he would come up with a really clever way of hiding the item, I say let him have it. Combined with two above-mentioned ideas, it effectively stops the 'gun-hoarding' during the shopping time, as after a dozen games KT will have all the guns it really needs at its disposal, and so they would be free to concentrate on other - more fun and / or productive - purchases. The only thing to remember here is to keep it cool, not allowing players to have a park of their own vehicles and a selection of sacred / unholy relics (and warning them against killing their fellow space marines to get an extra bolter)