Thanks for the responses, but judging from some of them, I think should have been much clearer in my initial post. I'm not complaining about the presence of mixed CSM/human parties in BC, nor am I asking for a tutorial on how to run a game without the players attacking or bullying other PCS, because I already know how to do that, and I like to make the assumption that most people on this forum do as well. We're all capable of running RPGS where foxes and hens join forces, or the ghosts of Churchill and Hitler have to work together to save the earth from alien invasion, or whatever. If I needed help with those issues I would have posted a thread called 'help! my players are out of control and the PCs keep killing each other!'

What I really wanted to talk about was that there is an inherent tension between CSM and humans working together, and I was interested in how people would deal with this in game, such as: how would CSM rationalize/justify treating humans as equals or allowing them equal say? How would mortals earn the respect of CSM? Do people think a certain amount of arrogance, disdain and internal conflict would be a fun element in such a game? How would the GM and the players construct a world in which a mixed CSM/human party functions, etc? Simply saying 'the PCs have to get along because this is an RPG' is not very helpful, especially if it begins to imperil believability.

So to the CSM out there, I guess I'm asking you, in character, why don't you squash this puny mortal's head?

Also, thanks to the many of you who have contributed some awesome ideas and explored many of the reasons why CSM and humans would work together.

For the same reason why a HUGE amount of warship captains is still human and not CSM.

They are useful. If they hop when i say so its all good.

All the Broken Chains characters really show that quite nicely.

The Heretek is simply too good to pass up. So you have to protect him a little (he does have mutations so he is less squishy than normal humans) but in return you dont have to worry about every little ammunition shell or how to open stupid doors that you cant crush by force. More time for spell research / weapon training instead.

Kastala is simply scary because of her psychic powers. So she doesnt have the body of a marine, but she kills stuff as quickly. Even if thats a Space Marine. Plus she doesnt get hit too often.......

Nina Black is the face. As ling as she doesnt screw up its all good. If she does, it gets into a more what do we have her for then question. (I have a player with a penchant for creating crappy characters. 59 year old gardener here i come etc. Yeah sometimes you have to ignore a few details)

Voronesh said:

Yeah, that's very similar to the kind of mindset my Word Bearer character has when it comes to making use of mortal assets.

Beyond military necessity he actually likes humans, and he genuinely believes that everything he does is for the ultimate benefit of humanity.

After all, it is only when the Imperium is crushed and humanity is united with Chaos that mankind will possess the strength and unity necessary to restart the Holy Warmaster's Great Crusade, exterminate the Xenos threat, and create an eternal empire maintained via faith and sacrifice.

I imagine that many CSM believe that they still serve humanity, and that the triumph of Chaos and the annihilation of the Imperium will benefit mankind. Many probably view humans as weaker siblings, with the ambivalence which that entails: contempt mixed with protective urges, all filtered through the ruthless pragmatism of an elite soldier.

(can't get the image of a 59 year old gardener hanging out with the Broken Chains characters out of my head... funny stuff )

Taking the initial point, that seems to be why the marine is going to treat the human player characters as equals, there are ways for the humans to demand it within a few sessions. Play the subserviant role for a few session while you start to use all your lovely advantages in proactive skills to gain the upper hand.

Take the tech Priest as an example, at first you are too valuable to kill off because you can preform functions they will have no idea how to, such as the repair of their power armour. You know that system they fundamentally have no idea how it functions, now it may seem like an obvious point the remotely activated explosives are easily within the tech level, and considering you don't have to worry about tech heresy nothing is stopping you hooking up one of them to detonate on your death. If you took enough ranks in decieve you could probaly even get explosives/toxins into their bodies as well.

With there being numerous explosives that will easily take out a marine on a good hit (probaly combine two or three types just to be sure), and the Tech-priest has got to the point the marines have to bow and scrap around him.

The human characters are probaly harder to play than the look I marine I shoot things style of play, on the other hand their is more they can do if played carefully.

Adeptus-B said:

From the promo I can hardly see the evidence of the 10 points higher being in effect. Nearly all the stats were between 30 and 50, I'm guessing it's going to be 30+2D10 for all stats regardless.

@Adeptus-B

I'm sure real BC characters do have more Skills/Talents than those depicted in the simplified demo, but so do Space Marines. If they are anything like their Deathwatch counterparts, CSMs will have a grocery list of special abilities not available to mortal characters, up to and including being able to access a person's memories by eating them...

And you don't think a bunch of chaos-worshippers might get stuff that (together with the higher number of skills and talents) makes up for it?

By the way, that memory-accessing stuff is hardly as accurate as some people make it out to be - otherwise, you wouldn't merely get one (IIRC nearly random) skill at basic level. It's a nice second chance if someone completely blew an interrogation, but hardly something you can rely on for your investigative needs.

Having "Charm and Deceive through the roof" is useful- maybe even useful enough to offset the fact that the CSMs stats average 10 points higher than the mortals- but is it useful enough to offset the fact that a CSMs Unnatural Toughness and power armour render him immune to most attacks that would flat-out kill Nina/Bore? I doubt it.

I don't see the CSMs reguarding Nina/Bore as anything more than useful thralls...

Firstly, I really don't see where you got the "10 points higher stats average" from - Asrodel has 36 points on average, Nina has 38, Ciro gets 41 and Bore 37. Granted, those don't take the Unnatural abilities into account, but both Bore and Nina have their own little enhancements there. All in all, the CSMs are really good at fighting and meh at most other stuff unless they can intimidate people into submission (in which case they're so-so). If we're going social, the best CSM (without looking at Babaroth since I can't be bothered to load up his sheet right now) has a 59 for Intimidate. Nina has a 73 for Charm and Deceive that turn into an 83 if she manages the test. Note also that the checks for Intimidate are constantly harder in the adventure than those for other social skills.
And Bore? Yes, he's still a little on the squishy side (though a combined 9 levels of soak are nothing to sneeze at either), but he has a fierce damage output (aim for a half action and you'll likely get a total +40 on the shot due to Accurate and Short Range, resulting in a likely damage of 3D10+4) and is the go-to person for all kinds of knowledge - and of course, Medicae.

I think we're approaching this from different angles. I assume PCs are more or less willing to cover each others weaknesses, meaning that the CSMs will draw the majority of enemies upon themselves so the humans don't get spontaneously splatted by a stray plasgun shot. Would you then prefer that everyone had roughly the same stats with each character only being a little more competent in their chosen field of expertise? I like it better when characters have truly different profiles that will necessitate cooperation within the group - this game in particular is going to need every plausible hook for fostering teamplay it can get.

@WatchCaptainGothicus

I could imagine different rationales for working with the humans as equals:

The first one would be necessity - guys like Asrodel can't be choosers when it comes to allies.

The second one might be tolerance or apathy. Some Marines may just not care enough to make their views on normal humans known while others indeed think that humans can come up with good plans on their own.

And a third one could be subservience. You think humans are despicable vermin only good for pollishing your power armoured boots, but your superior has this inexplicable weakness for them... so you'll bide your time and gnash your teeth when he's influenced by them, but since for some reason you respect that superior, you won't act against him - which sadly means not acting against those upstarts either, though you'll of course oblige to point out every single mistake a real Astartes wouldn't have made. This one is obviously good only for a not strictly democratic party that is okay with a slight power difference between the characters, with the understanding that it won't be abused (too badly).

Cifer said:

No, I just expect all starting characters to have advantages that 'shake out' to rough equality - and with CSM's massive advantages, mortal characters (well, other than Psykers and Sorcerers...) need more advantages than the sample characters from Broken Chains demonstrate to avoid being stuck in permanant 'second fiddle' mode compared to their 'larger than life' CSM counterparts. To tie this in with WatchCaptainGothicus' original question, being useful would likely be sufficient reason for a CSM tollerate the presence of a mortal (they presumably have numerous mortal servants on their ships and at thier bases), but that's not going to be sufficient to satisfy players - a trained dog is useful , but who would be staisfied role-playing that role within a party? For mortal characters to be viable choices in a mixed mortal/CSM party, they need to be useful and able to command respect within the party; otherwise they will come to be seen by the CSMs as simply tools, and who would want to roleplay that?

So, I'm hoping that the actual game will give mortal characters advantages that roughly equate to the benefits of a CSM's higher physical stats/unnatural abilities/power armour/unique traits; otherwise, playing a mortal in a party with CSMs will be a tough sell- who would volunteer to play the 'trained dog'?

Why are the CSMs NOT nothing more than trained dogs? That is what they amounted to in our Broken Chains game. I played Bore. I was the crucial member, Bore knew how to get past the security systems, he knew how to find out if the Inquisition was tracking them, how to get the ship operational again, and the Warp knowledge of how the demonhost likely operated. CSMs are just big guys who can pick up heavy things and pull triggers, if you want to be reductionist about it.

I hope CSMs are smarter than giving respect only to whoever can punch a wall the hardest. That doesn't amount to much against someone who can override security protocols and launch you into vacuum, or drop the Gellar field at a whim.

In the end we all gave each other proper respect for their specialties, and we all got out alive and mostly sane.

Marines can fight, that's it.

Humans can do so much more.

This became highly apparent during our game session/run through of Broken Chains.

Keffisch said:

Thats the way Broken Chains is built.

If you build a CSM for yourself, he will be much more powerful than a human, maybe not as good at socials/tech-use, but anything beyond that? CSM can do it too.

But thats like complaining that Nina Black never gets to operate a locked-door. Bore has to do that.

Basically once we get the BC Core book, we will have to reevaluate how FFG builds the whole thing. I guess that Humans have a head start in the social/tech-use/psilevel department, but CSM make it up with raw combat power. After that we already know its mix and match freely.

So Hephaestus Bore could pile on more and more mutations until he is nearly indistingiushable from a CSM, whereas Ciro could pick up alot of tricks concerning "how to open doors without breaking them". Or either c haracter goes simply deeper in his specialty. But whats the point? Once you have skill+30 and the talented option for it, theres not alot left to increase upon it. So after the first few adventures the characters will most certainly brach out in secondary skill sets (since they have no other option).

In RT I always look at the advancement tables and practically seek for anything remotely useful and fitting for the character (well the last few XP mostly). But that will never happen in BC. Youll neverhave a skill you totally forgot about, because you dont HAVE to spend XP on something just to advance one rank. OTOH youll never have to wait for Rank5/6/7/8 to finally buy that cool gimmick talent; cause you can simply purchase it as a starting character if you want.

(Goes back into hiding and waits for release of BC )

BUT if you want all the additional shenanigans to "Being able to open a door without kicking it PLUS not make any noise while doing it PLUS looking great while at it", you'll need additional talents.

Just as you need some talents to be more dangerous in combat, etc, etc.

Basically, I'll just be on the side of "wait and see"

Stormast said:

Good choice

There is another point that might regulate the relationship between CSM and 'normal' humans: the fickle interest of the Old Gods. In the Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned you could form renegade warbands focused around a chaos champion. And many of these chosen of the Dark Gods were 'normal' humans. In a Black Crusade story, there is more then the will of the players at work. Choosing absolute freedom they have at the same time become thralls of the Powers of Chaos, if they wish it or not. In game, this will certainly influence the attitude of CSM's versus the 'normal' humans. If one of those runts is clearly favoured by the Dark Gods, just squashing its head when he is annoying might not be such a brilliant idea.

Using this 'benign' influence, both the players and the GM can adjust the attitude of the characters to suit teamplay...what I am most wondering about at the moment is how and when ascension might occur, and how that will influence the teams. The chance to become a Daemonprince might have far more farreaching effects on group dynamism.

Friedrich van Riebeeck, Navigator Primus, Heart of the Void

I think the Chaos itself is the Great Equalizer.

If we think about the Imperium side of things, the Astartes are demi-gods. They are deadly as hell, but also pack status of state saints and are treated by awe and respect just because they ARE Astartes.

Now, a Chaos Marine endowed with the typical Astartes hubris can expect and demand demi-god treatment from humans, but in the eyes of chaos he is nothing more than just another soul. They can rant and throw tantrums all they want and demand special treatment because they are Astartes but the sad fact is that Chaos simply doesn't care. You have low Infamy and you are just another grunt, no matter how much Astartes blood flows in your veins. You have high Infamy and you are a force to be reckoned with, even if you originally were a lowly mutant from underhives.

That is actually why Nina Black is potentially the most powerfull character in Broken Chains. High Infamy coupled with the possibility to get additional degrees on success on any and all Fellowship tests can provide with stuff that no Astartes can get with just a chain axe and bad attitude.

Polaria, the chaos gods might not care, but the mortal humans the CSM can pummel to death with their own arms might care. I think it's up to the GM to balance the needs of the group, and thus the group dynamic will even out. Let's say you need someone to hack auto turrets or murder servitors to even the odds in a fight, or convince guardsmen to turn traitor and aid you. Basically make scenarios that don't have challenges that can be brute forced.

Hell, have a heretek install a deadswitch in the power armor, if he dies the armor goes boom with the marine inside.

If you want to make things difficult then of course you can, but you can also make it easy. It comes down to how you view and twist everything. And regardless it will be a self fulfilling prophecy.

I doubt chaos worshipers murder eachother at every point and turn, it would mean that they're all completely retarded. If there's nothing to gain, and something to loose, why kill the guy?

I suppose the GM can keep some control over CSM characters dominating the game by using "the chain of command"

Abbadon would feasibly loan out resources such as CSM support or bodyguards to promising cult leaders. I recall one of the villains having CSM bodyguards in the Eisenhorn novels, and Khorne Berzerkers cooperating with chaos forces in one of the Gaunt books. Similarly, in Blood Gorgons, Plague Marines support a conventional rebellion. I could imagine some threat of dire retribution if the Marines just took over the operation by force, from both the marines parent legion or commander, or even from the Black Legion against the marines parent legion or warband? Hence some kind of "duty to cooperate". And how much fun would roleplaying be - say a group of rebels who are still at that "this is a conventional rebellion against Imperial Authority, and isn't it great that our mysterious benefactors has supplied all these weapons, he's even sending some "special advisors". Then say a Plague Marine or 2 show up!

In a similar vein, the Night Lords novels have "human" characters who are nominally slaves, who are given a great deal of latitude and responsibility by the legion, sufficient to have some kind of control over CSMs who will acknowledge and defer to experience, aptitudes etc, albeit that outright refusal to follow orders will lead to a nasty death. is this so different, though, from a Death Watch or Dark Heresy group going "off mission"? The wrath of your Inquisitor, Chapter, etc is a similar controlling factor. This problem is inherent in any RPG. For example, has anyone ever played a Commissar or Sororitas or suchlike in the published games. who have used the authority inherent in their character background to dominate the rest of the group?

On our second night of Chains of Judgement we played through parts 2 and 3, I was slightly bummed at the last fight in part 1 against the servitors. Scoring exactly 1! hit that did 0 damage. Dialogue went as follows

Me: Finally! A hit! *Damage roll*
Gm: total?
Me: *grumbles* 6...

GM: Armor pen?
Me: flashlight. How much damage did I do?!
GM: None

On the gun deck however he changed the scenario quite a bit, we had explosives, a cart and rail tracks used for carrying said ammo around. So we had the renegade sneak up and scout, finding ALOT of servitors. Sneaking even further she changed the tracks, so the cart would go to the servitors. The CSM's loaded the cart with explosives and I jerry rigged a lasgun battery to work as a timed detonator and let the CSM's push the cart. It was fun, all of us got to contribute and the end result was lots of fun. I went on to...make a few complete misses on some acolytes that came running but that's another story (the khorne berserker stole my tech priest kill!)

You could probably draw that background as a chosen CSM, but a forsaken is by definition a loner and not part of Abbadons army. A loner however might band with them simply because he doesn't want to be a loner. Does he have to bully them? Possibly not, he might have been kicked out of CSM warbands before but here he can take it easy and if they try to kick him out later...well he can wait until then with being pissed and bashing some skulls in.

@Ghaundan

I take it you played Bore. In this case, you are aware that your personal flashlight is actually Accurate, meaning that when you aim for a half action, you gain an additional +10 bonus for a total +30 (+10 for single shot, +10 for half action aim, +10 for Accurate weapon aiming)? And that for every 20 points you roll under the maximum, you gain another D10 to damage?
Because Bore can be a pretty mean sniper...

Yeah, sad thing is, i do know. Kept rolling 80-90 and when i first hit it was barely.

A guy in the group is considering making a heretek sniper when we start playing because of Bore!

Are the CSM's in BC directly involved with their Legions or are they more "loner" types? (Not sure if anyone can answer that yet)

The only real use I see for CSM's is during missions where subtly and subterfuge are not required.

I don't care what his Fellowship is - a CSM landing on some Imperium world to broker the trade of some heretical technology - would be attacked, and killed (no matter how many hundreds he takes with him), before he had a chance to say: "Hello".

Same with any heavily mutated NPC.

That's my real worry - what is the "intent" of Black Crusade? Is it the opposite of Dark Heresy? Because then a CSM would be a serious liability to overthrowing the government of an Imperial world from within. Is it Rogue Trader? Cause... again, CSM's don't just go onto space stations and sit at the bar. Of course - if it's Deathwatch, then that's understandable, but then what role to the rest of the players have?

The chances are that it lies with the DM - which is always the case, but I hope the book emphasizes this. Players have a tendency to want to argue rules that aren't explicitly stated. I hope the book lays out plainly that you could try either an: All Marine, All Human, or Mixed Bag - with the last being the hardest to have balance.

Note: I haven't had a chance to look at the released material - and I know some of my questions could probably be answered by doing that - but it still remains a concern of mine.

Medhia, I don't think you've read the setting for BC. The sector they've outlined isn't an imperial sector but a renegade one. So a CSM could land on a planet and say hello, if he was attacked before then it would most likely be from other CSM, heretics or gangs who don't want any competition and think they can take him down.

But yeah, otherwise you'd have to somehow disguise the fact that he's a CSM. Possibly as a loyalist marine, or go without the power armor and otherwise try to hide what he is.

It's true, I've only recently started looking into Black Crusade.

I must admit - starting in a renegade zone doesn't seem at all appealing.

I would still imagine that there's at least "some" Imperial controlled planets - otherwise, what's the point?

Alright - I definitely have to do more research to see if I want to do this, or just have a "Radical" campaign that gets nasty (Black Crusade could still be a valuable resource)

Given the setting is in a warp storm, I think it's safe to say it's going to be mostly renegades.

However, if you have done any research, you'll have seen that, on a map of the current 40k RPG sectors, there are 2 Imperial or semi-Imperial areas (the Calixis Sector [the Dark Heresy setting] and the Koronus Expanse [the Rogue Trader setting]) next to said warp storm.

You seem to be trying to write it off before you've done any sort of looking up of what the game is about and where it is set...

Not at all - I admitted I needed to do more research.

I've purchased DH, RT, and DW - I seriously doubt I'd skip BC anyway. The information alone would be enough to add to my other campaigns.

That being said - I would have probably placed it (my campaign) in, or near, the Calixis sector anyway - though that seems to have already been taken care of.

Off to educate myself properly.