When I first read that Black Crusade would contain rules for playing CSM and human cultists, I had assumed that all of the PCs would play one or the other, and that there would be a significant gulf between power levels, with human characters around Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader level, and the CSM around Deathwatch power level. With the release of new information, it is now apparent that the intention behind BC is to play a mixed group of CSM and humans, which presents a number of issues which are either obstacles or roleplaying gold depending on your perspective.

CSM and humans working together - any chance of equality at all?

In all of the fiction I have read set in the 40k universe, CSM usually treat humans as either minions and slaves at best, or target practice and food at worst. They generally push them around, kill them with impunity, and treat them as an inferior, lesser species. This is true even of regular SM, although to a lesser degree. I imagine a mortal worshipper of chaos would have to achieve an incredible level of power to impress a CSM, and even then, his mortal nature would render any respect payed to him fairly precarious, because no matter how accomplished a human is, they willl never be accepted into the ranks of the Astartes as equals, because they do not possess the training, the gene-seed and the genetically and ideologically-enforced sense of brotherhood. They are simply not part of the clique, and never can be.

So what kind of status is a mortal PC going to have in a party filled with immortal superhumans who generally believe in a philosophy of might makes right? Is there going to be equity and discussion amongst the PCS, or are the CSM simply going to tell the humans how it is? Even in a RPG, where it is expected that the PCS make decisions on a generally democratic basis, how is is possible to roleplay a centuries-old superhuman who respects the opinion of someone who in their worldview is likely a fragile and infantile being, whom they could dismember in a heartbeat? How could the human PCs not live an existence of constant terror and alienation in the presence of these inhuman, immortal killing machines?

Of course, this could all make for fun roleplaying. Still, our group plays CSM using Deathwatch rules, and no-one is putting their hands up to play a mortal cultist on a permanent basis (considering how the PCS treat the mortal members of the crew, this is unsurprising).

I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on how they have, or would, approach a mixed CSM/human party.

Theres the real possibility that its just not going to work very well, I'm sort of hoping for a point-buy type of system for which will even out the ability to do a number things outside of combat. Because lets face it, a CSM running around on your planet is pretty much a case of "your planet is screwed", because in any other environment they're literally the 800lb gorilla who's soon going to be looking down the barrel of the Imperium's "make stuff dead by blowing up a few acres" approach to stopping tough things from breathing.

Course, that approach also applies to anyone standing next to Mr CSM with his Mack Truck armour and toughness eleventy, regardless of them being the cultist with the AP2 flack vest. You just can't take these arseholes any where and its not like wearing a hoodie is going to hide the fact!

One thing that will need to be remembered is the roll of the Infamy stat. I would imagine that if it can cow daemons into loyal service ("Do you know who I am" from BC), it works on CSM's as well.

Then their is the nature of these "human" characters as well, none will be a normal cultist croaking out "for chaos!" while clutching a las-pistol and that's it. Take the BC pre-gens. Nina makes pacts with daemons to do things that she could have hired a half-decent assasin to do, so obviously she is an incredibly dangerous psychotic young woman. Hephasteus is a tech-priest, even the loyalist astartes show them due deference as without them, no tech-marines, no power armour, no bolters, no nothin' but a sharp pointy stick (how many chaos tech-marines do you see anyhow?). Kastala has the powers of the warp at her beck-and call, who really knows what that witch is capable of!

One other thing to remember is that with the pre-gens, all the humans cover roles that the CSM's can't. Talking skills, tech skills, medicae, lore skills. Generally anything that involves something other than "Make things stop living with fist" skills.

We'll see how it works in game, since we really have nothing to go on but the Quick Start, and those humans were not Combat Wombat Tooled. Though the Psyker might ruin a Marine's day...

But there's cases in Fiction where human Champions exceed Astartes. The Third Grey Knights book has one who defeats a very potent Grey Knight in single combat. In this case? The Gifts of Chaos are potentially a HUGE equalizer.

I think equality is possible, just like Deathwatch Marines can work alongside a Magus of the Adeptus Mechanicus or an Inquisitor, a Chaos Marine can benefit from a psyker, member of the Dark Mechanicus, good strategist etc.

Considering how a Chosen gets his suit of terminator armour....

Yes any human that wants to survive amongst CSM as equals needs some really good qualities. If not there is always the case of boot to the face.

Kastala is very useful simply because of her psychic powers, there is just no btter equalizer. CSM getting uppity, Doombolt to the face.

The Heretek needs nothing more but his heretek status to be useful. No techmarines amongst CSM. If they dont treat you well, you simply stop getting them weaponry and even ammunition.

Nina Black needs the biggest amount of wheedling to survive. She is simply a face. As long as she gets the job done, she is a good addition.

But it really depends on the party makeup. If a "badass" type player gets the lead position with his CSM it might get ugly. But this a case for rule0. Its the same thing with other games and some player has to "play his character according to his background story". (If you play a rogue in fantasy games for example etc.)

Voronesh said:

She's also stealthy which can be useful too among multiple wearers of power armour. And what I found interesting is that she has the highest infamy score....

Mjoellnir said:

I assume her family was at least some what well known. And I'm thinking that daemons of the warp are a bit more knowledgeable of mortals who have bargained up their souls, perhaps knowing that they might be able to push just a little bit more to have her relent her body as well.

Bloodtyrant said:

My pet theory is that the failure of the daemon to kill her second brother voided the contract so she still has her soul. But of course that kind of reputation can stick.

I'm pretty sure that if your soul is removed in 40K, your body dies. Yeah there are Untouchables who are "soulless", but they're.. something else.

Or, when someone's soul is 'spoken for', smart daemons know enough to keep their paws off it, for fear of retribution from the one who will eventually claim it.

There's also the fact that many Traitor Marines don't necessary want to be mutated - finding themselves as Astartes to already be perfect. And may even find it abhorrent. So while they are potent warriors for Chaos (And it knows this) they may be trying to hold back in some way or another. Perhaps that's why the lower infamy?

Thanks for everyone's comments. A few thoughts:

Hygric, I agree that a Dark Mechanicus Heretek is pretty indispensible (unless you have an Iron Warriors Warsmith), but personally I always saw them as supporting characters rather than as protagonists. If people find them attractive to play then that's cool.

I'm not suggesting that the mortal characters aren't cool in their own right, just that there are psychological barriers in play that might cause them to be rather firmly locked out of a CSM 'were descended from a Primarch and you're not' clique. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

As for the mortals monopolizing all of the social and stealth skills, I doubt this will be the case in BC, since from what I can gather the entire game has been structured to provide a free-form XP system, allowing you to build your character however you like with minimal restrictions. If CSM were socially gimped and needed a mortal around as the 'face' of the party, it would be pretty lame, to say the least.

Dulahan, I agree, the gifts of Chaos are a huge equalizer, and for especially devout CSM like Word Bearers, mortals with a dedication to Chaos who have been blessed by the Chaos powers might even be considered part of the fraternity, or at least equals. Faith is a great uniting force, after all.

Mjoellnir, I agree that both SM and CSM can benefit from human help, but this doesn't make them view mortals as equals. A lot of the time, the mortals will probably be feeling left out, standing around scratching their heads whilst the Astartes chat about what to do over a closed Vox network.

Re Nina, I have no idea why she has such a high Infamy judging purely from her back story. Selling your soul to a daemon so he can kill some nobles, which she could presumably have just done herself if she wasn't lazy and/or incompetent, says idiot not infamy. And even the daemon she summoned didn't fully deliver, meaning it was a third-rate muppet of a daemon or she's being played. None of these traits inspire confidence, and I can't see an Alpha Legion veteran, whose bread and butter is assassination, stealth and intrigue, being particularly impressed.

WatchCaptainGothicus said:

As has been said before, we can do a lot to fill in these blanks by extrapolating on what FFG have actually provided us with:

Maybe Nina's reputation comes from her flight from the Inquisition and the scale of the operation necessary to track her down?.

What's to say that she hadn't worked her way into the upper-echelons of some sort of cult and established herself as a significant underworld figure before reaching the level of influence that would allow her to attempt to form a dark pact?.

We're not told how Merrick survived the assassination attempt. Maybe he too had some dark patron and the Inquisition agents were less than squeaky-clean, themselves?.

Perhaps the daemon was indeed playing her and her brother has died at its hand during the 200-ish years she's been in stasis?.

Still, for the most-part I agree. I really don't see why a party with one or more CSMs would ever really want to defer to the authority of a socially-orientated human unless they were dealing with an entity massively more powerful than them. What sort of offer, or threat, can a mere mortal make that one of the Astartes couldn't match through sheer brutality or strength of arms?.

Traditionally, social characters are the face of their group but what need does a Space Marine have for someone like that - except perhaps as a herald?. Might makes right, and the CSMs certainly have the advantage there.

I imagine they are going to nerf Marines down to levels where normal humans can compete with them, which seems like it will disappoint the Marine fans, but hey ho.

@WatchCaptainGothicus

As for the mortals monopolizing all of the social and stealth skills, I doubt this will be the case in BC, since from what I can gather the entire game has been structured to provide a free-form XP system, allowing you to build your character however you like with minimal restrictions. If CSM were socially gimped and needed a mortal around as the 'face' of the party, it would be pretty lame, to say the least.

While that's correct in general, there will still be certain tendencies provided with the "races" and archetypes. From what we've seen, mortal characters get a lot more skills while CSMs in the beginning have to make do with what their astartes physiology gives them - meaning that when both a CSM and a mortal character go for social skills with the same amount of XP, the mortal will be better at it, with things like Nina's Adroit playing into this.

Further... the fact remains that while Chaos Space Marines may train social and stealth skills, they're still going to be Chaos Space Marines . A mortal merely needs to scratch the stars off his equipment and hide any obvious mutations in order to appear as a loyal imperial subject - what's a CSM supposed to do, shrink a foot? Steal some Astartes Power Armour into which he may or may not even fit?

@Dr Schadenfreude

Still, for the most-part I agree. I really don't see why a party with one or more CSMs would ever really want to defer to the authority of a socially-orientated human unless they were dealing with an entity massively more powerful than them. What sort of offer, or threat, can a mere mortal make that one of the Astartes couldn't match through sheer brutality or strength of arms?.

Traditionally, social characters are the face of their group but what need does a Space Marine have for someone like that - except perhaps as a herald?. Might makes right, and the CSMs certainly have the advantage there.

I don't know about you, but in my RPGs, characters routinely encounter forces that can't be brutalized into submission. Games that are not set within the Vortex in particular will have a great need of subterfuge and stealth because the Imperium will generally have the bigger guns - even if these guns are those of a warship and used in bombardment of an imperial city to catch your characters.

And finally:

Mjoellnir, I agree that both SM and CSM can benefit from human help, but this doesn't make them view mortals as equals. A lot of the time, the mortals will probably be feeling left out, standing around scratching their heads whilst the Astartes chat about what to do over a closed Vox network.

@WatchCaptainGothicus

As for the mortals monopolizing all of the social and stealth skills, I doubt this will be the case in BC, since from what I can gather the entire game has been structured to provide a free-form XP system, allowing you to build your character however you like with minimal restrictions. If CSM were socially gimped and needed a mortal around as the 'face' of the party, it would be pretty lame, to say the least.

Cifer Said:

While that's correct in general, there will still be certain tendencies provided with the "races" and archetypes. From what we've seen, mortal characters get a lot more skills while CSMs in the beginning have to make do with what their astartes physiology gives them - meaning that when both a CSM and a mortal character go for social skills with the same amount of XP, the mortal will be better at it, with things like Nina's Adroit playing into this.

Further... the fact remains that while Chaos Space Marines may train social and stealth skills, they're still going to be Chaos Space Marines. A mortal merely needs to scratch the stars off his equipment and hide any obvious mutations in order to appear as a loyal imperial subject - what's a CSM supposed to do, shrink a foot? Steal some Astartes Power Armour into which he may or may not even fit?

Thanks, it's good to know that I'm generally correct. I'd hate to have a divergence of opinion with someone who has access to the objective truth about a game that hasn't been released yet.

And I'm sorry but I think you missed my point. All I said was that it would be a shame if BC railroaded characters into specific roles based on whether they were human or Astartes, and I don't think that this will be the case at all, because FFG have a solid track record on making good games.

As for stealth, I think CSM can be stealthy. For example, CSM Sorcerers can access magic to disguise or even transform their physical appearance, displacer fields can mask Astartes physiology, and any competent CSM can, given enough time, impersonate his loyalist brethren by, say, simply repainting his armour and performing some simple cosmetic alterations.

@Dr Schadenfreude

Still, for the most-part I agree. I really don't see why a party with one or more CSMs would ever really want to defer to the authority of a socially-orientated human unless they were dealing with an entity massively more powerful than them. What sort of offer, or threat, can a mere mortal make that one of the Astartes couldn't match through sheer brutality or strength of arms?.

Traditionally, social characters are the face of their group but what need does a Space Marine have for someone like that - except perhaps as a herald?. Might makes right, and the CSMs certainly have the advantage there.

Cifer said:

I don't know about you, but in my RPGs, characters routinely encounter forces that can't be brutalized into submission. Games that are not set within the Vortex in particular will have a great need of subterfuge and stealth because the Imperium will generally have the bigger guns - even if these guns are those of a warship and used in bombardment of an imperial city to catch your characters.

I think Dr Schadenfreude was talking generally about CSM psychology and motivations rather than the content of his own games. Also, the discussion wasn't about whether or not the CSM use stealth, but about social dynamics, and whether or not they could respect certain mortals as equals, or defer to their authority, whether through coercion or admiration. Your response is a bit off-topic and a little condescending in tone.

@WatchCaptainGothicus

Mjoellnir, I agree that both SM and CSM can benefit from human help, but this doesn't make them view mortals as equals. A lot of the time, the mortals will probably be feeling left out, standing around scratching their heads whilst the Astartes chat about what to do over a closed Vox network.

Cifer said:

I think what it all comes down to is party-building. Yes, you can play a bunch of Astartes-Supremacists that bully the human characters around, which would be entirely fitting to the setting. You can also play a Khornite berserker who kills a party member every half-hour when he's bored - also quite legitimate and in-canon. Here's a hint: If your group doesn't enjoy that sort of thing, don't do it. Don't search for reasons why a normal CSM would look down on mortals and only use them as cannon-fodder and target practice - look for reasons why your CSM isn't normal. Let's take the characters from Broken Chains as examples: Babaroth doesn't care who makes the plans as long as they involve death. Ciro would likely have the 'whatever it takes' mentality common to his Legion. That leaves Asrodel, but he doesn't exactly have a choice since his warband kicked him out, does he?

Wow. I'm not sure if you're aware of this but your tone is extremely arrogant and condescending here. Again you have totally missed the point in order to deliver some kind of self-aggrandizing rant about what an awesome and experienced roleplayer you are, willing to educate the ignorant masses about party-building.

I'm talking generally about Astartes psychology and ideology, not any concerns I have for either game-balance or playability, since BC looks like it will be great. I'm not talking about the sort of characters that I or my group would play in the context of a mixed CSM/human party. I was simply trying to start an interesting discussion about CSM/human relations in the 40K setting. Consider that you might benefit from using a more diplomatic tone in the future and maybe reading people's posts a bit more carefully.

Firstly, I'd like to sincerely apologize if my tone came off as arrogant - it wasn't meant to be.

And I'm sorry but I think you missed my point. All I said was that it would be a shame if BC railroaded characters into specific roles based on whether they were human or Astartes, and I don't think that this will be the case at all, because FFG have a solid track record on making good games.

Then I indeed mistook "monopolizing" for "having a distinct advantage that will prove their worth in a party". As long as that's clear, there's nothing left but to agree.

As for stealth, I think CSM can be stealthy. For example, CSM Sorcerers can access magic to disguise or even transform their physical appearance, displacer fields can mask Astartes physiology, and any competent CSM can, given enough time, impersonate his loyalist brethren by, say, simply repainting his armour and performing some simple cosmetic alterations.

I'll give you sorcery, but what exactly are displacer fields? I take it you're not talking about the force field and a permanent optical illusion is quite high-tech even by 40k standards - the only ones who use something like this on a regular basis would be the Eldar. Regarding the armour, I'm not quite sure how having blue helmet spikes will help the CSM's case. The great majority of CSM armours are noticeably different from loyalist ones in shape. And even if he manages the impersonation, he's still a Space Marine. Where is his chapter? Why isn't he off to some battle-field rather than in the middle of a hive? Incongruencies like that are going to require a much better cover story to not raise the suspicion of the Inquisition than a normal human.

I think Dr Schadenfreude was talking generally about CSM psychology and motivations rather than the content of his own games. Also, the discussion wasn't about whether or not the CSM use stealth, but about social dynamics, and whether or not they could respect certain mortals as equals, or defer to their authority, whether through coercion or admiration.

He said that a social character's generic utility would be as a party face and that CSMs have no use for that. While I agree with him assuming the CSM stays within his legion, there's going to be a tremendous need for a face character in many Black Crusade games, thus opening up the possibility for a CSM to note that yes, he does need someone who can do the talking parts.

I'm talking generally about Astartes psychology and ideology, not any concerns I have for either game-balance or playability, since BC looks like it will be great. I'm not talking about the sort of characters that I or my group would play in the context of a mixed CSM/human party. I was simply trying to start an interesting discussion about CSM/human relations in the 40K setting.

Well, this introductory post...

So what kind of status is a mortal PC going to have in a party filled with immortal superhumans who generally believe in a philosophy of might makes right? Is there going to be equity and discussion amongst the PCS, or are the CSM simply going to tell the humans how it is? Even in a RPG, where it is expected that the PCS make decisions on a generally democratic basis, how is is possible to roleplay a centuries-old superhuman who respects the opinion of someone who in their worldview is likely a fragile and infantile being, whom they could dismember in a heartbeat? How could the human PCs not live an existence of constant terror and alienation in the presence of these inhuman, immortal killing machines?
Of course, this could all make for fun roleplaying. Still, our group plays CSM using Deathwatch rules, and no-one is putting their hands up to play a mortal cultist on a permanent basis (considering how the PCS treat the mortal members of the crew, this is unsurprising).

...sounded to me like you indeed wanted to discuss Astartes/human relations in the context of a Black Crusade game, rather than in general and how to make the whole thing a fun experience for everyone. To which my answer is: take the easy route and create characters that are inclined to work with each other rather than first building PCs that are the typical "humans are worthless"-CSMs and then wondering how you can make the game work.

And finally, please think about your own tone - a saying about pots and kettles comes to mind.

I think I over-generalised more than a little too much in making my point, which itself wasn't too sound and coloured by a lot of what I've been hearing, more than personal experience. I'm a very alarmist person and, by sheer coincidence, had just signed up to play Nina Black in a play-by-post game of Broken Chains the day before I stumbled across this and the other thread regarding the PCs of that scenario. Considering that it's a game running with the full compliment of characters, and thus three CSMs, I'm feeling more than a little worried that my character's role within the group is going to be very limited indeed. Maybe I'm approaching this from a mis-coloured perspective but CSMs really don't strike me as the sort to acknowledge their own failings - especially if doing so suggests a mere mortal could do the job better. Really, I think I might just be tying myself in knots over the fact that Broken Chains is essentially a dungeon crawl and thus not exactly the most conductive environment for a socially adroit character.

Still, given my experience dealing with militant PCs, I do find myself rather concerned that a lot of players choosing to play the Astartes classes will do so because they want to play consummate badasses who can simply steamroller their way through anything in their path. If the loyalist Space Marines are guilty of being aloof and failing to understand the frailties and "inadequacies" of humanity, they at least tend to have good intentions to their actions. Maybe I'm a little off-base in saying this but it's my opinion that there are very few CSMs indeed, outside of the "subtle" legions, that would even consider accepting the leadership of a human over any matter in which they had another choice. While I agree that circumstances in which brute force is not a viable option are far more frequent than I gave them credit, I'm left wondering how frequently the genetically-modified super-soldiers will be willing to swallow their pride unless they're specifically shown that they can't carry the day on their own merits.

As Gothicus said earlier, one of the things that concerns me about Black Crusade is how apparent the potential is for characters to be railroaded into certain roles based on whether they are human or Astartes - and that it's likely the mortals will be left do whatever the CSMs can't. While the Astartes will always be combat characters at heart, they have the integral aura and prestige to pummel or intimidate lesser mortals into line on reputation alone. The situations that best suit the human characters will be the ones where either combat is not an option for anyone or where the Marines are incapable of attending at all. While there's nothing wrong with that, in theory, I can't help but think that the characters are going to end up earmarked into roles from a very early stage and GMs are going to have to work to make sure that the human PCs get a fair amount of time apart from their "betters". Most mortals would be very happy to have the Astartes to carry them through combat, despite their own abilities, but the CSMs don't strike me as the type to stand at the back looking intimidating while someone half their size does the talking for them.

Again though, I'm probably very guilty of crass over-generalisation in this matter. Providing the players themselves can develop a decent rapport between characters, none of this should really be a problem.

Cifer:

First off, may I apologize if my own tone was overly harsh. Your initial post came off as a bit preachy and condescending, although that obviously wasn't your intention judging by your second post, and I should have given you the benefit of the doubt rather than responding aggressively. Unfortunately tone is hard to convey here, and I guess misunderstandings are inevitable.

On the topic of stealthy marines:

Displacer fields were introduced in a piece of fiction by Dan Abnett (Blood Games in Tales of Heresy), and were used by Adeptus Custodes so that they could blend in amongst humans. They create the illusion that an eight-foot-tall beefcake is normal sized. Obviously, they're a shameless vehicle designed to allow Astartes and other genetically modified giants to blend in with normal humans and be capable of espionage and undercover work. For Astartes PCS who want to blend in they are a very cool device to provide more options in a SM/CSM campaign.

Armour - I first came across CSM undercover as loyalist Astartes in the Emperor Protects adventure, where a group of Alpha Legion had infiltrated an imperial world as Black Templars. I used this in my own games, and it paid off as it allowed me to foster intense paranoia. Whenever the players met other SM, they couldn't help but pause and ask 'are they Alpha Legion?' I would imagine that stealing armor or re-modelling your own armor would be possible for a CSM who was a good artificer or heretek on hand. Underneath all those horns and spikes are just regular suits of MK II-V power armor. Armour that is blessed by the Chaos powers - particularly Tzeentch - might even disguise itself.

Another factor that makes Astartes great infiltrators is their ability to absorb memories and skills from people by sampling their flesh and blood. They can go undercover as anyone they can take a bite out of (that would have made that show 'The Pretender' way cooler).

Again, no hard feelings

Dr. Schadenfreude said:

I think that there's an assumption here that could do with being challenged...

Every single loyal Space Marine identifies himself as a member of his Chapter, and in many cases with the bloodline of their Primarch beyond that - Gabriel Seth is of the Flesh Tearers Chapter and is a Son of Sanguinius, and those two elements define much of his self-identity. That isn't necessarily the case with Chaos Space Marines. While it's convenient, particularly from a wargame perspective to consider the traitor legions as discrete and unified entities, that is far from the case in the galaxy of the 41st Millennium (for the most part), and the term Chaos Space Marine isn't analogous to the term Traitor Legionnaire (which only applies to members of the Traitor Legions), as it has to include the likes of Huron Blackheart and other latter-day-renegades as well.

Chaos Space Marines, because of the scattered and diffuse nature of the forces they're affiliated with, are far more likely to be self-motivated and individualistic than loyal Space Marines, if only because the rigorous self-discipline and sense of unity that binds a Chapter doesn't exist to the same degree (if at all) within the fractured remnants of the Traitor Legions and the scattered warbands where most Chaos Space Marines can be found. Each Chaos Space Marine is bound to his own ambitions and his own inclinations, unfettered by the loyalties and dogma found within the Imperium. In this regard, a Chaos Marine's Legion/former Chapter and bloodline matter only if he chooses to identify with them (remembering that the two don't always match - consider Honsou of the Iron Warriors, whose is a Son of Dorn by blood and geneseed, or the Red Corsairs who take in warriors of all bloodlines and make use of any geneseed they can find), and thus aren't inherently deciding factors in a character's nature.

Yeah, my mind is very set in the 3rd edition of the tabletop game when, for the most part, the Red Corsairs were a footnote in the codex and a force that just needed you to paint a red cross over your loyalist's iconography.

Thanks for that reminder.

I was surprised that the sample characters from Broken Chains weren't more ballanced. When I first read that characters in BC could be CSMs or mortals, I assumed that the point system would ensure some degree of equality, a la Deathwatch / DH Ascention : while a first level DW Astartes dwarfs a 9th-level DH character in straight combat, an Ascended character has a number and variety of skills that far exceed what is available to a starting DW character, thus making them highly useful specialists to a team of combat-focused Astartes (investigative abilities being the most obvious advantage).

I thought that starting BC mortal characters would have a similar advantage, but the sample characters contain no such balance - the mortal characters have few skills and absolutely no other benefits that can hope to offset the CSM's Power Armour/Unnatural abilities/massive Hit Points, etc. Yeah, a mortal heretic can walk into a room without attracting as much attention as a power armoured CSM, but does that really offset the point value of a CSM's massive benefits?

@Adeptus-B

You seem to have read a different adventure than the one I have in front of me. Firstly, yes the skill selection is limited - because FFG likely doesn't want to spend 7+ pages in a 32 page demo booklet on skill descriptions. If you want a glimpse of the actual stats, reading the published archetypes and comparing the human ones with the CSMs would likely produce more valid results than looking at the bare-bones sheets given in the demo adventure. Taking the Sorcerer versus the Apostate, we've got 4 skills (plus possibly some more from the Astartes race) versus 15.

Secondly, the mortal characters do have skills in important areas the CSMs are severely lacking: Nina has Charm and Deceive through the roof, Bore has Medicae and Tech-Use, with Security coming very shortly behind in usefulness. Running through Broken Chains without mortal characters is going to be an absolute meat-grinder since you can't evade combat, heal characters, make allies or hack security systems. If I was playing the demo as a CSM, I certainly would make sure Nina and Bore (and possibly Kastala, though she's not quite as important except as living artillery - still useful though, considering how limited bolt ammunition is) have a nice and cozy place near the back of the group when it comes to combat, because I know we're going to need to pull them out afterwards.

Cifer said:

The perfect example of Rule 0.

You want to play together as a group, so act like it.

UNLESS you want to have PVP a main factor in your game. Most people dont so many CSM players should lean towards "Eh he is useful, so he gets to tag along and believe he can make decisions" but will heap (good natured) ridicule on said player.

Its the same reason why fantasy games allow rogues in good/paladintype parties. You are supposed to be the charming face (A-Team) rogue and not the "kill everyone not me" rogue.

BC runs along the same streak. You are supposed to play a CSM that uses every tool, regardless what it is, to win. But you wont kill him, only because hes mortal.

Cifer said:

I'm sure real BC characters do have more Skills/Talents than those depicted in the simplified demo, but so do Space Marines . If they are anything like their Deathwatch counterparts, CSMs will have a grocery list of special abilities not available to mortal characters, up to and including being able to access a person's memories by eating them...

Cifer said:

Having "Charm and Deceive through the roof" is useful- maybe even useful enough to offset the fact that the CSMs stats average 10 points higher than the mortals- but is it useful enough to offset the fact that a CSMs Unnatural Toughness and power armour render him immune to most attacks that would flat-out kill Nina/Bore? I doubt it.

I don't see the CSMs reguarding Nina/Bore as anything more than useful thralls...