Regarding the sample Heretek - I would never call him either whiny or a loser, especially not by virtue of his graft being inferior to Astartes mutations.

First, as others have pointed out, he's unlikely to have tried the best stuff on himself, because he's quite reasonable in his madness and wouldn't want to end as a Spawn by accident.

Second, he got captured in the middle of his research, and we don't have a slightest idea what he had accomplished other than on himself, or what his end results would look like.

Third, even if it's currently inferior to what Astartes have, merging his own flesh with that of a daemon and coming out intact and tougher is nothing to balk at, considering we're talking about a starting character. In fact, it looks pretty awesome to me. Of all characters in the demo, he's the one that gets me most excited about character building options in the full game.

I think the OP is a pretty negative view on the characters. Babaroth is a little one-dimensional, but could still be fun to play. The rest I'm fine with.

@Morangias

Fourth, I don't think it's fair to hold against him that he didn't surpass the Emperor of Mankind on the first try. Space Marines are, after all, the pinnacle of human science.

Regarding Asrodel, now that I think about him, I'm somewhat reminded of Saul Tigh, the XO of Battlestar Galactica. How often did he try to quit drinking and how often did he come back to it? And how cool were the moments after certain character arcs when he shaped up and got over it?

Cifer said:

Yes, that too.

Cifer said:

Saul tigh was at his best, when he was sober, at other times he was simple drunk so the viewer could feel elation at him getting sober again.

Asrodel is a CSM, nobody wants to know about his repentence and return to righteousness. He is supposed to be a badass character and that is where the problem is.

Black Crusade is not about getting back to servitude to the corpse-god.

UNLESS you want to play it that way, and then Asrodel is a perfect fit. But as a long CSM player, i have not even arrogance left for such puppies. Accept the power of the Ruinous powers or suffer the fate given to you. (Asrodel is the fated one isnt he? ironic ^^)

Waywardpaladin said:

I think as a tech adept you usually learn that mutated flesh < flesh < bionics and that anything else is heresy. So he's stupid to actually try that instead of getting a few nice bionic augmentations that won't get him burned and work better.

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

They didn't go further. He got himself caught and all he has to show for it are a few tentacles on his chest that make him slightly harder to kill. If we start with "could have been" Nina is awesome because the demon could have killed both brothers and she would have been the head of the dynasty, Asrodel would be great because the other Marines could have found his creative bolter use awesome and made him their leader etc.

Decessor said:

I guess Anakin Skywalker didn't just kill Vader's coolness, he seemingly also killed any desire to see some decent, scary villains.....

Cifer said:

The Emperor didn't go the easy (chaotic) way, and getting unnatural toughness would still be a far cry from all the Space Marine implants. But it would be something to show off.

Mjoellnir said:

Yeah, cause clearly, everything you learn within the AdMec is absolutely true. And the Dark Mechanicum NEVAR finds anything of any interest / superior to the AdMec. And the Fabricator General did TOTALLY NOT fall for Chaos because of that during the Heresy.

Come one. If you find that what you believe feels false, and in fact you MAY find something more potent...Of course, most people would just shy away and say "Oh well must be complete BS". But some don't. Usually, they get screwed. But they may not. I mean, until you've tried, you actually don't know. That's the point of playing a Heretek. You've wished for greater gifts, for even better enhancements. Did what you find satisfy you or not? Hard to answer. Lots of role play included. Yay.

You seem to have a very fixed idea of what a badass villain must be. Some may disagree. I see both as cool.

I don't see Dark Vader as the best example of villain suckiness...But YMMV I guess.

Mjoellnir said:

And, by that logic, nobody would ever engage in heretical acts, because the legitimate way of doing things is already perfectly adequate.

It's experimentation - the process isn't complete, the results are not at their most effective... because he's still figuring out the details. Dabbling in blasphemy doesn't go from 0 to Unlimited Cosmic Power instantly... particularly if you're being careful to avoid negative consequences.

Mjoellnir said:

Well, yeah, that's what having your research interrupted by the authorities will do to your progress.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Made my morning .

Great down to earth dry humour reply !

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Oh, yes people would still engange in heretical acts. They would even experiment. But the smart ones wouldn't do that on a loyalist forgeworld.

Mjoellnir said:

Never heard of hiding in plain sight? Considering the perceived power level of published BC Archetypes, and the fact that he was doing any research at all, Bore must have had pretty high status on Lathes, and the way I understand it, higher echelons of AdMech have quite a lot privacy as long as they keep a low profile.

Now that I think of it, it's pretty significant that the Inquisition got it's hands on him, rather than allowing the AdMech to deal with him. He must have been classified as a major threat...

@Voronesh

Saul tigh was at his best, when he was sober, at other times he was simple drunk so the viewer could feel elation at him getting sober again.

Asrodel is a CSM, nobody wants to know about his repentence and return to righteousness. He is supposed to be a badass character and that is where the problem is.

Black Crusade is not about getting back to servitude to the corpse-god.

I'm not talking about him repenting, but about one day overcoming his conflict - either by accepting defeat in a duel of honour (possibly between party members - how would that be for deescalation? He's defeated, goes for his boltpistol and... drops it) or by throwing all pretense of honour overboard (for example, by having his - preferably NPC - adversary shot right after that enemy has asked for the duel). I could see both as an interesting development of the character.

I think as a tech adept you usually learn that mutated flesh < flesh < bionics and that anything else is heresy. So he's stupid to actually try that instead of getting a few nice bionic augmentations that won't get him burned and work better.

Except for those Genetors who view flesh as another machine to manipulate.

They didn't go further. He got himself caught and all he has to show for it are a few tentacles on his chest that make him slightly harder to kill. If we start with "could have been" Nina is awesome because the demon could have killed both brothers and she would have been the head of the dynasty, Asrodel would be great because the other Marines could have found his creative bolter use awesome and made him their leader etc.

So you want to start play with a perfect character who has never failed and never will? That sounds incredibly boring.

I guess Anakin Skywalker didn't just kill Vader's coolness, he seemingly also killed any desire to see some decent, scary villains.....

No, just boring ones.

The Emperor didn't go the easy (chaotic) way, and getting unnatural toughness would still be a far cry from all the Space Marine implants. But it would be something to show off.

It's pretty debatable how exactly the Emperor created the Primarchs. Warp shenanigans could easily have been involved at some point. In any case, I rate characters by how interesting they are to play over the amount of cool toys they've acquired.

Morangias said:

Well, seemingly that was the AM's choice: "When the Adeptus Mechanicus discovered his forbidden experiments, Bore was cast out of the order and turned
over to the Inquisition."

And keeping a low profile seemingly is the big problem of someone who thinks that they will take him back if he manages to perfect his designs...

Decessor said:

Yes, but Genetors are rare and even they don't work with chaos-spawned mutations, their modifications are more like the creation of a Space Marine.

Decessor said:

No, I just don't want to play a character who "is" a failure. Everybody can fail (except those who don't try), but it doesn't have to be because they do epically stupid stuff.

Decessor said:

"Warp" shenanigans were most definitely involved. But Warp=/=Chaos. And I don't rate characters by their toys but by their competence and personal power. Unfortunately Ciro, Kastala and Babaroth are the only ones I find convincing there.

Mjoellnir said:

Genetors aren't that rare. They're part of the Ruling Class of the Adeptus Mechanicus, alongside the ranks of Magos, Logis and Artisan, and they're no more rare than any of those.

Cifer said:

Isnt that a way of repenting. The first option at least.

The second option is rather meh. Shooting someone whos asking for a honour duel, so what? We are CSM, we shoot people all the time. And if they actually want a hoour duel, we can say no. Even if we say no via shot to the head.

There is a great story in a codex (CSM ate 3rd i believe) where a CSM diplomat is sent to another warband to ask for "allaince" in preparation for a black crusade. The warband accepts but only after the diplomats entourage (CSM squad) is soundly killed in battle with him as the sole survivor.

So yeah, 2nd option would be the correct CSM way of saying no.

Haha. Fun thread. I thought the meaning of a PRG was content not mechanics. Seeing how the discussion goes on these Deathwatch boards i guess i was wrong. XD

But seriously now, i doubt that the characters(The heretek for example) did not think about going rogue to get game mechanic pluses. When play you characters do you make them seriously in-game cool or just "teh Besthest!" because you can? I go for the first one in case i was misunderstood. (Directed at no one in general)

N0-1_H3r3 said:

From Into the Storm: "A Genetor's field of study makes him distinct from the majority of Tech-Priests,[...]" ; "A particular and unusual disposition is required to become a Genetor" sure, they are part of the ruling class, and being a minority and unusual is relative in 40k where everything is big....

Anonymus said:

That's a common misconception. RP and mechanics have to integrate. Of course Bore wanted to get game mechanic bonuses. The same reason many Mechanicus priests replace their limbs with bionics, Space Marines take power weapons instead of chain swords or storm trooper use Hotshot instead of normal laser weapons. Because they are supposed to be better. If that's not reflected in the rules you don't need any. If Bore would have grafted warp mutations onto himself without expecting any benefits he would be an even worse player character.

Mjoellnir said:

Yeah, I actually wrote the text you've just quoted. Being a minority and being rare are not inherently the same thing (though there is correlation between the two, obviously), particularly when dealing with an organisation as huge as the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Okay, they are a not-so-rare minority, but still usually don't use warp mutations.

Mjoellnir said:

Of course not... normally. But similarly, Sanctioned Psykers and Adepts don't typically employ sorcery, and Inquisitors don't usually use daemon weapons and daemonhosts. Space Marines don't normally turn renegade either.

But some do. Some do what is forbidden in the name of knowledge, power, revenge or some other reason...

If they didn't, then Chaos wouldn't be much of a threat, because nobody would ever be tempted to employ forbidden methods.

@Mjoellnir

That's a common misconception. RP and mechanics have to integrate. Of course Bore wanted to get game mechanic bonuses. The same reason many Mechanicus priests replace their limbs with bionics, Space Marines take power weapons instead of chain swords or storm trooper use Hotshot instead of normal laser weapons. Because they are supposed to be better. If that's not reflected in the rules you don't need any. If Bore would have grafted warp mutations onto himself without expecting any benefits he would be an even worse player character.

While I usually agree with this point, it's only a half-truth in this case. Mechanics should always be integrated into the fluff, but the reverse does not have to be true in all cases - especially those where the mechanics don't touch an area at all. Imagine, for example, a classic pleasure-seeker. A pure hedonist. Is Slaanesh likely to tempt them with something that can be translated into a tangible bonus? Not as long as there's no "having a good time" stat. They may get some plusses to Fellowship and Charm, but the main point of their pact would be entirely intangible in game terms.

The same may hold true with Bore. Considering the AdMech doesn't exactly have a huge amount of tomes on daemongrafting in their public libraries, a lot of what the Heretek did probably was the purely theoretical foundation, with his own graft being the first stable translation into practice.

lol qouting the writer back his own words lol

whats your problem with him and what the problem in general? if you don`t like him don`t play him. if you still want him in the game give him too someone who can play off his wackyness.

and just my 2 cents on the csm thing. who cares what he was i`m personaly more intrested in what i can make of them!

the plotting heavy weapons man, briliant

the willing too back down for now but only if he get too kill later khornight?? intresting a follower of khorne with some self control

and the not so honerbal leader type. hello **** up, so they kicked him out, realy good reason too get some respect and some payback no?

i have no problem with any of the charaters not sure i would like too run them in the real game but for a demo they are great

Cifer said:

Bore. TB+2 for him isnt that big. But apply the same thing to the IG at large. Now you have a immensely powerful upgrade available.

Maybe he started off because he wanted to improve humanity. Maybe he actually had a good intention at start. Because the way to hell is plastered with good intentions......

(Not against you Cifer but rather with you here, but you mentioned Bore so nicely)

So yeah maybe he was just at the start of his research, or maybe he was only the guinea pig to prove that his theory actually works for all of mankind.....

Mjoellnir said:

I think Asrodel, Nina and Ciro both make great villains. Asrodel is simple sociopath with delusions of grandeur. He is a-okay as long as things go his way and throws sociopathic tantrums, when not. Nina is devious, vindictive, spitefull and evil. She is not, and should not be, a honorable step-up-on-the-open-and-challenge my brothers kinda gal, because obviously she is not. Cire suffers from Hubris, but for Alpha thats kinda okay, too, for a villain.

Hephastius is interesting since he isn't technically evil at all. The fact that he didn't try the biggest and most difficult grafts on himself (yet) is a sign of intelligence and prudence, nothing more.

Babaroth is simply a BAD IDEA for a player character. Okay for an NPC, definite no-no for a PC, unless you get a real roleplayer play him.

Overall, I would say the characters would be **** badly made if they felt like honorfull, ubercool heroes everyone can respect. Because that is EXACTLY what they are NOT supposed to be.