Hello, since the preview adventure for Dark Heresy I love to read the background stories of the pre-made characters. Now, in Broken Chains, I have to admit that for the first time I really dislike most of them. Okay, you could say that that's only natural since they are villains, but it's not that. I can't respect them as villains.

Asrodel the Fated: Wants to be a great and noble warrior but also wants to win at all costs, so he cheats whenever he's losing. Dude, if you can only win by cheating do that and be proud of it, but stay out of honour duels.

Nina Black: *Whine* my brothers inherited all the money and power in my family, so I sell my soul to a daemon who promises to kill them! Girl, with that kind of statblock you maybe should have tried hurting your brothers yourself, either through violence or intrigue. Now go and thank your remaining brother on your knees that you still have your soul. **** those lazy kids....

Ciro: Now THIS is a villain. Got himself captured so his colleagues could escape with their loot and still eliminated two platoons of Maccabeus Janissaries before they got him. That's someone I can respect.

Hephastius Bore: Got fascinated with warp-spawned mutations and started producing them to graft them onto himself. Got caught and handed over to the Inquisition. For what? A whopping +2 to his toughness bonus. Risk vs. reward man....

Babaroth: Competent (killed a company of guardsmen) but only motivated by slaughter. Makes a good goon but not much else.

Kastala: Has the best and most believable motivation and is competent and dedicated. A shame that she has chosen to accept the support of the Chaos Gods but she is what her life has made her.

I rather liked Hephastius. He didn't just graft himself, he "helped" other people too. The funny thing is, it worked. He is now tougher for it. He hasn't turned into a demon, the graft isn't mind controlling him, there were no negatives as far as the game shows. But, of course, the Inquisition stilll carted him away and probably killed all the people he had grafted.

You do realize that most chaos personalities run off of personal motivations (hate, anger, betrayal, frustration, revenge, etc), not lofty goals of loyalty, brotherhood and Doing The Right Thing, right?

Heck, Horus is the poster-child for "daddy didn't hug me enuff."

Asrodel the Fated: Wants to be a great and noble warrior but also wants to win at all costs, so he cheats whenever he's losing. Dude, if you can only win by cheating do that and be proud of it, but stay out of honour duels.

And that's what we call a character weakness or hubris. It's one of those things that distinguishes villains from heroes.

Nina Black: *Whine* my brothers inherited all the money and power in my family, so I sell my soul to a daemon who promises to kill them! Girl, with that kind of statblock you maybe should have tried hurting your brothers yourself, either through violence or intrigue. Now go and thank your remaining brother on your knees that you still have your soul. **** those lazy kids....

Who is to say she hasn't tried that before? Also, part of her statblock likely results from her deal with the daemon.

Hephastius Bore: Got fascinated with warp-spawned mutations and started producing them to graft them onto himself. Got caught and handed over to the Inquisition. For what? A whopping +2 to his toughness bonus. Risk vs. reward man....

Risk vs. reward may have been his entire point. I don't know about you, but when I start grafting daemon flesh to something, the most risky and possibly powerful grafts will be... on someone else. I am content to use the grafts that I know to be harmless to myself - even if they only grant me +2 TB. Then I'll see how my experiments are doing in one or two years and make further use of those that didn't let their hosts devolve into spawn.

Babaroth: Competent (killed a company of guardsmen) but only motivated by slaughter. Makes a good goon but not much else.

Yup, that's kind of the point of the character. A simple man with simple tastes.

Seconded, good Cifer

Funnily enough Asrodeln is one of my favourites for pretty much the same reasons. I think that inner conflict of his makes him into an interesting character, human if you will, and is something that can fuel a lot of fun roleplaying.

Nina does strike me as a bit of a cliche though, as are many of the others.

Personally I would like to see how they can be made to work in a group, rather than how many ways they cannot. How would you play Babaroth long-term in a group?

Waywardpaladin said:

Yeah, that's kind of the point... If I risk getting hauled away by the Inquisition I would at prefer something that was worth it. Half the bonus damage resistance of a Space Marine? Not worth it.

keltheos said:

I know, but their motivations shouldn't keep them from being effective. Horus was strong enough to get the Marks of all four Chaos gods and commandeer half the army of the Emperor, regardless what kind of dumb butthole he was otherwise.

Cifer said:

Heroes can have character weaknesses too, character weaknesses don't distinguish villains from heroes but believable characters from dimensionless templates. However too big character weaknesses can make a character ridiculous. Obi-Wan said that Darth Vader had killed Anakin Skywalker. He was wrong, it was the other way around.

Cifer said:

Who says that she did? "Orrik and his brother Marcus consolidated the power of the Black Household, leaving Nina with little more than a pittance and minor retinue of servants. Incensed, Nina made a dark pact with a powerful daemon: her soul for her brothers’ deaths."

And her statblock looks to me like that of a human who is supposed to play in the same team as a Chaos Marine, not modified by some kind of pact (also no modifications on her are mentioned as part of the bargain).

Cifer said:

Risk = Being found out, tortured and killed painfully and slowly, that risk becomes bigger the longer and on the more people he runs his experiments. Reward: a bit of extra resistance to damage. He could have gotten better if he had become a Magos.

Cifer said:

If you like playing someone like that. Seeing him as the main villain in a movie would be incredibly boring.

bladerunner_35 said:

Well, if you like a character who almost gets killed by his friends.

bladerunner_35 said:

Where did I say that they can't work in a group? They can work perfectly together, regardless how much I don't like them. And Babaroth is the easiest. You just have to give him something to slaughter in the name of Khorne.... Of course, how long you can play that character and have fun doing it is an entirely different question.

Got to agree that Ciro is the brightest one of the bunch. Got himself captured so his team can do even more damage without any one knowing the better. Yeah that sounds like the Empire of man getting fooled again.

Mjoellnir said:

Since you didn't answer my question I'll take a stab at it myself:

So, what do we have. First of all we have a roleplaying game, we're here to have fun, together. Second of all we have a bunch of very bad people, pushed together by an unkind fate. Third of all we have a pathological warrior-murderer, barely keeping his anger in check at the best of times, at the worst of time killing everyone around him, friend or foe.

It seems logical to start of with Broken Chain so I'll do that. Here our hero - Babaroth suddenly finds himself awake in a derelict vessel and seeing an unlikely group of others around himself his first reaction naturally is to bathe in their blood! With a roar he throws himself at the nearest creature, quickly killing it with furious blows from his fists. When the old, familiar blood fury abates uncounted minutes later he is alone yet again. Coming to his senses he slowly picks his way through the tunnels and debris, blood and gore dripping from his naked body.

Hearing more creatures moving towards him he suddenly, as if struck by an odd revelation that leaves him slightly light-headed, realises what is going on. He knows that he can go on and kill, and kill and kill until there are no more deaths to be had on this ghost of a ship and for a moment he marvels at this vision of stalking through tunnels like a Bloodletter of Khorne! Then he sees the end of it, alone, cold and deprived of any more kills he lives out his remaining life as a ghost himself without any sacrifices for Khorne but his own feeble life. A failure.

No! It will not be so! He will restrain himself, he can play games, he can wait. Feeling the comfortable rage subsiding enough to clear his immidiate thoughts he greets the strangers and soon finds that they are in the same situation as he. They will be his tools to get him of this tomb and to other worlds, rich with spoils and kills!

As they struggle across the Chains of Judgement Babaroth, against his will, finds himself impressed by the group. Now no longer strangers but unlikely brothers in arms, all as eager to be off this tomb as himself. All as ready to shed blood. They do not worship Khorne as he does but so what, Khorne does not care form whence the blood flows, only that it flows.....

Realising the potential in this unholy union Babaroth decides to stay his hand and travel with this group. It quickly becomes clear that they are on a path of much blood and glory, even though Nina does talk to much and Bore is well, quite a bore. The only real threat is that damned Alpha Legionnaire Ciro, to smart by half them Alpha boys. Might have to teach him a lesson or two.

There you go, a long term motivation for Babaroth. As has been noted in his background, he is not a simpleton, he knows that with a little bit of patience he will get a hundred and more, thousands of kills! Instead of the few meak right now. Maybe even Nina, Ciro and Bore will rubb off some sense into him with time. It will surely be an interesting character to play and will no doubt create a lot of good humoured tension in the group as they try to rein in their seven foot super killer.

Heroes can have character weaknesses too, character weaknesses don't distinguish villains from heroes but believable characters from dimensionless templates. However too big character weaknesses can make a character ridiculous. Obi-Wan said that Darth Vader had killed Anakin Skywalker. He was wrong, it was the other way around.

And not being able to let go off your honour-based ideals nor accept defeat is "ridiculous"?

Who says that she did? "Orrik and his brother Marcus consolidated the power of the Black Household, leaving Nina with little more than a pittance and minor retinue of servants. Incensed, Nina made a dark pact with a powerful daemon: her soul for her brothers’ deaths."

And her statblock looks to me like that of a human who is supposed to play in the same team as a Chaos Marine, not modified by some kind of pact (also no modifications on her are mentioned as part of the bargain).

So how precise can you get when you describe a few decades (or maybe centuries - she's in a Rogue Trader line after all) of a person's live on five lines of text?

Risk = Being found out, tortured and killed painfully and slowly, that risk becomes bigger the longer and on the more people he runs his experiments. Reward: a bit of extra resistance to damage. He could have gotten better if he had become a Magos.

Have you considered that his personal graft may not have been the point of his research, but rather a by-product along the way? Who knows what was bubbling in his test tubes when the big -=I=- came calling?
The character sheets even explicitly states that he expects he will be forgiven and welcomed back as soon as he makes enough progress. Assuming he's just a little delusional (rather than a lot), think about what kind of results he must believe possible.

Where did I say that they can't work in a group? They can work perfectly together, regardless how much I don't like them. And Babaroth is the easiest. You just have to give him something to slaughter in the name of Khorne.... Of course, how long you can play that character and have fun doing it is an entirely different question.

Oh, Babaroth is IMO perfect for the length of the adventure given - and perhaps the follow-up, should FFG decide to make one like they did with DW. I certainly wouldn't want to play as him for a whole campaign, but that's not the point of the character, is it? It's a simple guy who's fun to play for a session or two. In terms of long-term character development, I'd say Nina, Bore and Asrodel have the most to offer, with Kastala a little after them. Ciro would have to develop a flaw or two to make him interesting rather than the teflon-like Chessmaster he is right now.

Mjoellnir said:

I really like those two. Ciro os the Chosen you want as a Chosen. They are a Chaos Lords bodyguard after all.

Babaroth is simply a Khorne Berzerker. Thats all there is. Every single one of them is partly lobotomized. Not much place for a complicated background. Also a good choice for a chosen. As long as you are the one who offers the biggest amount of slaughter, he will be perfectly loyal.

The Forsaken suffers from Abaddon syndrome. "I wanna be all cool, but i perpetually fail." There is a reason why Abaddon is known as a failure. That many black crusades and every single one a failure. GW get a grip on reality and let him drop and replace him with new blood.

I actually enjoyed most of the others too. Nina Black was really too much of a stereotype, but the others were a very nice read. So 4 out of 6 is a good number i think.

Ciro would be very interesting for a long term character. He is part of the Alpha Legion after all, which is the closest you can get to scheming without being a true follower of Tzeentch. But he would definitely need a more complicated goal. He sthe character a story revolves around and nobody knows beforehand what he would be up to. Whcih also might explain the lack of further knowledge we have of him .

Out of all 6, Babaroth is the only one that makes me groan. Even my 13 year old son finds pure fighting characters to be boring and one-dimensional. Personally I find Mr Bore to be the most interesting character. I really like the idea of BC being broad enough to cover more than born again chaos worshipers.

bladerunner_35 said:

Eh.... Yeah, that's pretty much the long version of what his character sheet says. Even though I have no idea why you think he has to kill his fellow prisoners first....

Cifer said:

Yes, that combination is ridiculous. Especially if it gets you kicked from a CSM warband, lets you flee with a human pirate band and get captured by the Inquisition. Good villains who can't fight either learn it or cheat. While not a typical villain look at Jack Sparrow.

Cifer said:

Precise enough to not write it in a way that makes it look like an immediate reaction and to make the bargain not look like the worst assassination fee ever.

Cifer said:

If someone believes he will be accepted back into the Mechanicus because of research on grafting warp-spawned mutations he is neither a little nor a lot delusional but completely. So much for that. Sure, maybe he had been cooking up better stuff, but he failed to hide it (from his description it could even be assumed that he barely tried). Like Babaroth he is more of a goon. He is unable to survive by himself and needs a master who uses and protects him.

Cifer said:

Yeah, but making one-shot characters shouldn't really be the point. The point should be to show what Black Crusade has to offer in the long term. And Ciro is incredibly overconfident. But he's an incredibly overconfident badass.

Voronesh said:

Hehe, so true. Unfortunately the only "young" blood they have is Huron.

Voronesh said:

The only problem with playing Alpha Legion is that nobody really knows what they want.

Voronesh said:

If you ask Abbadon and Chaos, none of those Crusades were a failure. Just the Imperium thinks they were. Look at it from Chaos' point of view. They learned the Imperium's Response Times and likely responses in General. They got a hold of a couple Blackstone Fortresses, and more importantly, got them out of the Imperium's Hands. They've recently gained a sort of Foothold in the Cadian Gate. Others found certain artifacts.

No, in the terms of Chaos' Grand Strategy, and Abbadon's, they were quite successful indeed.

Dulahan said:

They would have been if that would have been their goals. It reminds me of an episode of the Superman animated series where Superman smashes a robot apart and on Apokalypse a scientist tells Darkseid that thanks to this robot they finally have the data to build the robot that can destroy Superman. Darkseid's response: "Wasn't this the robot that was supposed to destroy Superman?" I don't think Abbadon ever rallied his forces with the battle cry "LET'S CHECK THEIR RESPONSE TIMES!!!!!"

Voronesh said:

I think it's a mistake to assume that "Chosen" can only ever be analogous to a single Elite Choice within a Chaos Space Marine army...

Voronesh said:

As others have said, Abaddon is only a failure if you assume that every Black Crusade is an attempt to reach Terra and defecate in the Emperor's corn flakes. He's not Horus, true, but that doesn't mean he's stupid... if you've got a virtual eternity to complete your plans, then colossal interplanetary wars are frequently only small parts of the overall campaign.

I like the broken chains characters

The adventure itself is very so so as you could insert generic characters from any game and play it through with them but we need to rememeber that the adventure and characters are aimed at people who might have never played a RPG not budding actors who want to get in character.

If you are a Vet RPG player why not just change the characters history/personality to fit your idea.

Edit - I wouldnt look into the success of the Black Crusades too much as it seems GW just dont want to change the 40k backdrop or move the setting on at any pace.

Dulahan said:

You misunderstand.

The people who say Abaddons is a pansy are the CSM players. Its not a matter of 40k internal logic. We all know the black crusades managed something. Its GW selling us Abaddon as all badass since 2nd edition and he hasnt been able to get one MAJOR victory in. The point is his stated goals (by GW who created and control the character) are bigger than anything he has done yet.

Think about Ahriman or a certain Lucius. They have "smaller" goals but they certainly achieve them. And keep they mystique/badass status.

BTW Huron is really "new" blood. 2nd edition, cut for 3rd and and returns late in 4th .

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Ehh the 2nd part is answered in the post above. You were thinking too much within the boundaries of 40k. Within the CSM gaming population Abaddon is the biggest pansy of all our miniatures.

No i meant it as equal to that job. A Chosen can also operate as an independent squad. But only they are up to the job of being the Chaos Lords bodyguard.

So if you need a few good men (ahh the choice of words for CSM) to get a job done, you pick chosen and not normal marines.

The single Codex Entry has ALOT of uses . Mine have flamed repeated attacks by Genestealers down into nothingness (20+ within a single game, enough for a DW campaign), carried more plasmaguns than anyone else into enemy territory to execute the enemy general. The Chosen are simply the elite of the CSM army, there are only the chaos lords and sorcerors above them.

I just dont know where to place the forsaken yet. His abaddon pansy status doesnt help him though ^^.

I think the key in the setting is that the imperium is winning all the battles, but is losing the war. Or is winning the wars, but losing the conflict. As you see.

So, all the black crusades are defeated (if chaos won, the game would be over), but the Imperium is weaker after each one. and the chaos grows stronger.

Mjoellnir said:

That was for dramatic effect along the lines of something I as the player of Babaroth would suggest to the GM that my character could do to establish his "personality" to the group. The GM, if going along with this, could then describe for the other player's characters how they walk past another stasis chamber. This one filled with the bloody pieces of other prisoners, presumably killed by Babaroth. You know, a quick and effective way to let Babaroth have some spotlight time.

On the other hand I as the GM, would use the daemon to whisper the suggestion to cool it to Babaroth and thereby giving the player a tool to work with the adventure and group.

One thing I personally think is often forgotten or overlooked but can be vital to a fun character is the question: "How can I make this character work WITH the group?". To many times, as can be seen by the many threads on this forum questioning the possibility of roleplaying a bunch of cut-throats and back-stabbers, the question is reversed: "How bad will this character screw up the group dynamic?" or perhaps worse, the question is never asked but the player just make a kewl character not really considering that roleplaying is a group effort no matter how you swing it.

A couple of months back I played a Wood Elf in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. I played up his wierdness and keept him aloof and naive towards the human world. This character worked very well as there became a sort of back-and-forth roleplay between him and the other player's characters which pushed the whole session that little bit extra. This character, if played as just a lone wolf could just as well have detracted from the session instead.

It's all about getting the social contract out in the open and having a straight up discussion about the premises of the game and what makes it fun for everyone. In my experience, any character can be made to not only work but shine and I have often found that it is the "questionable" characters that really breathes a lot of life into sessions simply because they make you think and make that little extra effort.

Anyways, that's my 2 kronor. Now you can go back to discuss the merits of Abaddon.

You're thinking too much in game terms. I don't think Bore went "Hmm, this Ability will give me a +2 Toughness bonus, brilliant!" He probably saw the potential to cure all disease, increase the strength and tougness of Imperial Guard, and generally awesomeness. He believed that his associates would be logical about it, and should he prove the advantages they'd be forced to admit the worth of his research. I'm sure he didn't realize how stupid the Inquisition tends to be.

Waywardpaladin said:

Agreed. To take it further, it was all RESEARCH. If his work had continued, who knows how far it could have gone? Or how deep he would fall?

Lord Ork said:

Pretty much. It's Grand Strategy on a scale that just can't be conceived of easily since the Imperium has been around longer than the entire written history of the human race at this point. Whether it be Chaos OR the Imperium, both are engaged in strategies that can take millenia to complete. "Yeah, that sector is a goal to conquer." says some middle manager under a High Lord in the Administratum. Billions and billions of soldiers die over a couple thousand years. People occasionally figure out that there's a war going on there, and don't reallocate from X world for another war. And someday "Oh, hey, this sector is nice and loyal, let's levy some soldiers from there." And it's a drop in the bucket.

Dulahan said:

The Imperium will take millennia to fall just due to its ridiculous size. We know that the Imperium used to be much bigger, but is being slowly whittled away, its regions dominated by rebels, Chaos, alien invasion, or just totally cut off from the center. To take a historical analogy, Rome took a few centuries to collapse, its borders slowly eroded and regions seized by various external forces, and Byzantium held out as a pathetic remnant of Roman power until the 15th century. All this, and the Roman empire at its height was smaller than the landmass of, say, Australia. The Imperium is almost incomprehensibly massive, and its destruction will be necessarily slow rather than swift and spectacular. Inexorably, Chaos is already winning, though the sheer number of worlds conquered in the Great Crusade means victory is far away.