So, long time lurker, 2cd time poster. I've read 192 pages (of 232) of this forum, stopping only because the discussion back in Feb. 2009 is too antiquated in light of the FAQs. What can I say, I like to be thorough.

I've read tons of rules clarifications and seen some entertaining flame wars. However, while there has been plenty of tactical discussion, there has been comparatively little strategic discussion. Just to be clear, I am referring to the difference between "How to handle Monster X" (tactical) and "Map Control vs. Dungeon Control" (strategic). Some of the best insights I've found have been couched in other threads. Such as this thread, where Corbon, Antistone and Parathion discuss the relative balance of Silver or Gold starts for clarification in the upcoming FAQ. Corbon's description of a Tamalir Rush using Lts. in a systematic and concerted manner led me to much of what I know about the meta-game.

So I'd like to have a conversation about strategy in Descent. Specifically RtL, although I guess that's obvious. Before I get too deep into it though, I have 2 questions.

1. Does anyone care?

2. I have spent a little time on BGG, but not enough to know if a serious strategic discussion is ongoing over there. Should I stop acting like an idiot and go over there (to act like an idiot)?

If 1 = yes and 2 = stay here, then: horray!

{} said:

1. Some, though SoB is more interesting strategically if the broken parts can be unbroken (basically because it is unknown, or will be once/if the breaks are fixed, whereas RtL is fairly well understood by now).

2. I don't recall anything like that on BGG.

So what do you want to discuss?

Are you refering to general overland map strategies. This will have to be specific to each Avatar since the choice of Avatar changes the strategies used on the overland map.

If you are refering to Hero and Overlord Dungeon/Encounter/Lt Battles, each one is unique, though I could give you strategies for about half the dungeons that if the hero players paid attention and moved fast (and barring too many miss rolls or low damage), they could clear them each in 5 rounds or less.

Individual Hero strategy isn't impossible, though there would be several different strategies about several different heroes to discuss.

Group hero strategy varies strongly on the actual group in play.

What strategy would you like to discuss today?

Ok cool, thx for replying! So, first please bear with this longish post, and please forgive me if I put my foot in my mouth. I'll try to keep things as specific as possible to avoid speaking past each other. Also, I don't feel like I've discovered anything game-changing, I'm just learning. (Although maybe after talking about it enough some new points will arise)

1. In the post I cited above, the Silver Titan (or Demon Prince) start is made more robust by the cohesive actions of multiple Lts.

2. At the beginning of each age the Lts. enjoy a significant advantage over the heroes.

3. The most imperative first upgrade is a monster category, typically Eldritch although sometimes Beast.

4. Lts. are strong, but still vulnerable, without at least a few points of treachery. This vulnerability seems to persist at any point, which is to say without treachery Lts. may easily lose (depending on which heroes) even in early Copper.

5. Treachery supports Dungeons at least as well as Lt. fights. By this I mean that a given treachery card will result in a similar amount of CT in either scenario, although obviously the stakes are higher in Lt. fights. (Treachery cards may actually be more robust in Dungeons b/c the OL potentially has access to every card in the game with which to make sick combos)

Therefore

Regarding either the Titan or Demon Prince, starting at Copper, would this purchase path be preferable?

1. Eldritch (even if you are the Titan) 25

2. All the treachery you can afford bearing in mind that,

3. You will purchase no Lts. until Silver (or just before) and

4. At Silver you must have saved enough to purchase at least all the Farrows, and another monster upgrade, probably Beast.

My thinking is that, at least with those two Avatars, the idea is to first focus on CT gain through Copper in the Dungeons (early Eldritch upgrade re-enforced with treachery). Then to apply maximum map pressure in Silver, taking full advantage of their central map location, and at the worst possible time for the heroes, with significantly damaging upgrades (especially all that treachery).

Your thoughts? And thx!

{} said:

Generally speaking I find that Treachery cards are not great value in dungeons. Competent heroes will be going fast enough so that the OL doesn't actually see half his deck, so often doesn't even draw a treachery card, let alone get a chance to play it. Two exceptions are the Spider Queen with Into My Parlour (can guarantee the availability of Trap treachery cards) and Crushing Blow (so useful it is a must have even if you don't get to use it in every dungeon).

This doesn't mean that Treachery is useless in dungeons or anything, just that thinking of it as helping in dungeons a lot is probably skewing an analysis enough off direction to mess up a plan formed from that analysis.

{} said:

If you are mixing in the SoB levels (much better designed) as well, I'd be tempted by Humanoid for the Titan if you got to the 25CT mark but not the 30CT mark. Tempted, but not sure if I'd fail the temptation or not... It perhaps depends on the hero party design.
ANd if the heroes are stupid enough to have 2 (or more) melee heroes in the party I'd be very tempted by Beasts.

{} said:

No, definitely wrong I think. There is nothing wrong with having weakish Lts out there harrassing the heroes or besieging cities. You just have to be prepared to flee immediately, and set up any encounter defensively. You do need to have some pressure out there to mess up the heroes and try to prevent them getting their perfect training regime etc.
You also need to remember that you can only make one purchase per week, and Lts only move one trail per week. So you need to have the pieces of your plan positioning themselves in place well before the plan itself takes action.

{} said:

You are better off doubling up the first upgrade, unless you save enough to purchase two monster upgrades. If you go the Eldritch path for the Titan, a double Humanoid upgrade is quite nasty at the start of silver. Humanoids get their best boost at silver->gold, but the eldritch boost is quite weak after their strong copper-> silver boost.

{} said:

KAA is very very scary due to a focused Eldritch minion set, and a soaring demon. Given 1 monster treachery he can use it to upgrade the demon minion to a Master (Dark Servant) and then reinforce another demon! Throw in a cheap event treachery for a crushing blow or a couple of rages, and you can break the heroes morale totally. It can be beaten, but it is very very very tough, basically the most dangerous combo in the game, and the total cost is just 25 (eldritch) + 16 (KAA) +15 (monster treachery) = 56. If you go straight for this combo, in this order, the heroes will probably get smashed horribly and totally think the game is unbalanced and impossible. By this stage the heroes probably have 1 upgrade set, 2 at most. The heroes must have Wind Pact for this(and few groups understand the importance of Wind Pact and even those that do often are prepared to accept getting it 'later' when it will be more important) and prepare with Feats and potions saved.

Thaad is less scary, but has greater general utility - ironically less of a brute force application. His special ability to reduce a cities defense rating by one makes him very dangerous when used in concert with other Lts in sudden siege rushes.
And if you have a double humanoid upgrade, those ogres can be damned tough for heroes who have not yet got good silver weapons. A well prepared hero party will probably see him off without too mush risk, but will probably use a lot of resources (potions and feats) in doing so that will leave them vulnerable to the other Lts.

Although you saw the cohesive start demonstrated in the silver-start example, it is also effective to have a distributed strategy that focuses with good timing. You can have Lts north, south and southwest besieging cities and/or distracting the heroes and then they can all converge on Tamalir together from different directions.

And don't forget the plot possibilities. Even if you don't plan on winning through plot, there are still possibilities there.

Corbon said:

Thanks for the reply and sorry for the delay, I'm a working stiff.

1. Unfortunately, our group doesn't own SoB. Has your experience with that expansion been positive? Would you recommend purchasing it before other RtL expansions? We currently have Vanilla, WoD and RtL only.

2. Ok cool! In our current campaign my purchase path is different from what I described above, and I was worried that perhaps I was blundering. For reference I am the Great Wyrm playing Ascension. The heroes are Nanok (I forget ATM his starting skill, but Taunt is on the horizon), Jaes (Quickcasting), Silhouette (Leadership), Thorn (Knight). Sick, I know. That's why I'm trying to be as precise as possible with my strategy. The only saving grace is they didn't blitz which has given me an early lead of 87 to 57, I have 41 left unspent! My purchase path has been, A: Beast (25), B: Merrick (5), C: Eliza (6), D: Event treachery (10). Merrick is at Dawnsmoor, Eliza is at Riverwatch, and Alric at Vynvale. Siege engines was my starting upgrade, and they can all begin a siege next week. The heroes are at Tamalir. I know I want Beasts (gold) and Eldritch (silver) as soon as Silver starts. Or at least, I think I do....

3. KAA's strength has been mentioned throughout the forums, so much so that I see some players have nerfed him a little. I considered the Titan just for Thaad and the Ascension plot, but the Wyrm seemed more useful in dungeons. I like the idea that every step forward for the heroes is a boon to me as well. I'm thinking that the Wyrm's special should be worth about 30 - 40 extra CT by the end. maybe 30 from chests, and a little extra due to all the extra threat I have which should occasionally lead to a player kill. Between chests and a few razed cities, I'm hoping my income at gold will be enough to keep me in the game.

4. Plot possibilities with Ascension. Essentially I'm just trying to raze whatever presents itself I imagine. They know they need wind pact, but I'll never get there in time to deny it. My plan is to get something razed by Silver, another right after Silver when my Lts. will dominate, and the other 2 hopefully during Silver, but at least at the transition to gold when Dar Hilzernod will make a big difference (maybe with a transport gem).

Hmmm, I have to run, but I don't want to delete this half-baked post! Any thoughts from this? Thx to all for your time!

{} said:

No. Definitely get the basic expansions before SoB.
SoB showed two basic things. First, it showed they learned a little from RtL. The final battle rules look much improved (difficult to tell though since it isn't possible to get there without deliberately playing badly as OL) and there are a few basic improvements in general rules. In addition the dungeon levels are much better designed. However the second basic thing is that they clearly did not playtest the rules at all. Even the most incompetent playtesters must have spotted some of the glaring screwups in the rules. Some screwups are from entirely new features, other screwups are where they clearly tried to make changes to RtL rules but the changes are very much worse (enough to break the game).

The game might be better than RtL after the next FAQ, but much will depend on whether they can find a developer who has a clue about the game rather than someone who played a bit once.

{} said:

I would probably (well, certainly) be more interested in getting more treachery than upgrading Eldritch to SIlver (keeping enoug for Beast to Gold wk 1 is important though).
Sure, having silver eldritch would be nice in dungeons but it is Lt encounters that win you the game. Extra treachery will do more for you by far in encounters. A second Event treachery gives you Danger and Rage (assuming the right expansions) to add to the Crushing Blow, a Trap Treachery will give you a Dark Charm ( very powerful, or they spend lots of MP unequipping each turn and don't use guard) and a space trap to mess with their movement. A Monster Treachery will give you a very powerful Beast spawn (two Master Razorwings being a favourite).

{} said:

I like the Wyrm and think it is probably the best balanced avatar for a fun game all round - the heroes can be powerful and do well in dungeons (which is the bulk of the game), but the OL gets some compensations (Chest CT etc), and the OL gets to have very strong encounters that are challenging for both sides without any one overpowering thing (like KAA).

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/325622/rtl-the-art-of-blitz

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/306101/player-strategies

Thanks for the above links. I'm going to share them with my current group of heroes whether or not we relaunch our current hopeless campaign.

So after reading that "Blitz" tactic thread... is there one to give the OL even a chance to counter it. Obviously if the OL realizes the heroes are going to pull something like that then he would avoid spending anything but his first 15 CT on starter stuff. Then gaining one CT every week till he can raze a city. If the right group is formed, the OL can't even get in kills, so unless the OL manages to raze a city, it's 25 weeks till they can upgrade a monster class. If they pull Ltn's with that CT instead of saving it for an upgrade, they might get a train on Tamalir to win, or hit one or two cities before the heroes are too powerful to face. So 2 to 3 additional CT a week after four or five weeks (lowest siege rating and distance to begin siege). Training Ltn's might help this, maybe. So by the end of Copper the OL will have bought two Ltn's, and nothing else, about mid silver possibly getting eneogh to boost that first monster class. Having already sat through 90% of the dungeons and encounters doing little because I couldn't, I am beginning to feel like all I'm there for is to set up the board and monsters, then take it apart when the heroes are done breezing through it.

That blitz tactic might change things for players who are struggling as a hero group. My curiousity is how does one as an OL make the game even remotely interesting after Copper passes. A careful group, equiped right, and well chosen, can prevent the OL from any CT, pretty much leaving the OL to hope the heroes give him an opening now and then. As soon as my hero group hit gold, even with Gold upgrades in Humanoid and Eldritch, I can't do anything against them. Most dungeon levels are a breeze to block LoS in the first turn or two, pretty much insuring that all your enemies will only be able to come at you from the front (easy defense).

Groups may grumble when things are too hard but at least you have a challenge, if this was the constant, where would the challenge be for the hero group, just count spaces, risk, and breeze on through. How boring does that get?

There are only 9 dungeons within 2 blitzing range of Tamalir.

After the initial few blitzes, they will find that getting to any more dungeons where they only do the first level will take them 2 or even 3 weeks time. Personally we play with the divine favor rule from SoB, which means even though the heroes may get an initially lead, it becomes easier for the OL to catch up. Getting gold monsters really changes things around, they are powerful enough to seriously hurt or even kill most silver geared heroes in a single round.

Grubsnik said:

And after those nine dungeons the heroes are how far ahead of the OL in conquest, money and upgrades? This is fine with certain Avatar choices but it pretty much makes at least two I can think of pretty useless as they rely heavily on that first monster upgrade to make CT. Fortuneatly my hero group will be too "cocky when they play again and will find me to be a very deadly and much meaner OL.

Adding in the "Divine Favor" rule from SoB is fine, but it's a house rule option, not an official rule. It was included for Sea of Blood and while it may work with RtL, there is nothing that says it applies to use with RtL, same with any of the other "new" balancing rules in SoB, it's a nice idea, but not correct according to the rules, remember that that would be considered a "house rule" option that would have to be agreed upon by your group.

It's comments like this that make me want to film each game so I can show you how my players are kicking my ass. Just to show that I've read all the strategies, and ideas, and options recommended, and nothing helps with this group. Even if all of my heroes move in a round all of them will get multiple attacks. Mostly they just send in the Mage and Archer (Quick Casting, Teleport, and Rapid Fire), either the mage does mass area affect attacks (tried dodge a few times, never works), or the archer moves in till she has enough targets to make good use of Rapid Fire (10 shots as long as she has legal targets and a fatigue potion and does an Advance, or 6 shots if she doesn't have a fatigue potion), worse if she declared an Order and doesn't use it, she can switch it to any other order (including a Guard or Rest). With these two to kill "most" of the dungeons monsters, that leaves the Tank and other Archer with full rounds of move and attacks, whch the tank spends to cover the "Front Flank" risk, and the Archer moves to block the "Rear Flank" risk, both put up Guard orders and wait for a round, rinse, repeat...

Gust of Wind is great... if you have charge or fast monsters to spawn (anything four and under is pointless without charge), and if you have anywhere five spaces away from any heroes to spawn in (not available in most dungeons).

Also I totally agree that Gold upgrades for monsters is a definate must, Silver at least, especially with any monsters that are supported by your Avatar. Also it is great that they do more than eneogh damage to "kill" even a silver treasure armed hero, now if only they could actually get off an attack that would be useful. I spend my entire first two rounds hoping for a run of X's basically, if that doesn't happen, I usually don't have critters to attack the heroes, and no LoS to spawn anything. If my player party can't kill something "threatening" they will move to a safe distance (taking into account charge and run) or they will put up guard orders to deal with the monsters when they do try to close (Grey Ker can change his second half action no matter what he originally declared, and Silhouette can change any Readied order she has placed to another, giving the heroes the safety net of two possible guard orders if things don't go well for them (Silhouette rely's heavily on Rest and Guard orders).

Follow-up to the posts about the Blitz tactic:

Is it too late to do that, pragmatically speaking, when you're already more than halfway through Copper, even if most of those dungeons within 1-2 spaces of Tamalir have not yet been explored? (Even though there's 151 conquest between the two of us, we've only actually explored two dungeons.)

the tactic can work at any time. where it gains the most is from exploring the first dungeons within 1-2 trails away, completely negating or severely hindering OL CT gain. this will make it harder for a monster upgrade.

it is possible to do it now, and probably a good idea if you are that far behind on CT, but it will be much tougher if the OL already has monster upgrades and treachery already purchased.