Special: Encounter markers represent mystical herbs. One marker can be gathered for 1 movement, becoming a potion of the hero's choice. If a player is knocked back over an herb space, it is destroyed. After an herb is gathered or destroyed, remove the encounter marker and roll a black power die. On a surge, Grazius becomes enraged.

Grazius will not move or attack unless enraged. If he is killed, the Overlord gains three conquest tokens. Monsters cannot attack Grazius.

Leader: Mogdir is a Master Ogre with 8 extra wounds and 1 extra armor.

So number one Grazius is not a Leader therefor making him not worth CT but still worth 50 gp to kill?

Two, a hero player has to have their figure knocked back "over" not "onto" an encounter marker to "destroy " a potion?

Three, since Grazius will not move or attack unless enraged. Does this mean the Overlord can play the Event card Enraged on Grazius allowing him to move and attack?

In all three cases I'm pretty sure that all of these are true, but I would like a confirmation as my hero players might make an issue of it and I want to be prepared for it.

Veritech said:

He is not a leader, so not worth CT. He is a named monster. Is he a Master monster? I don't think so, IIRC he just uses some or all of the stats and abilities of a Master monster. In that case he is not worth 50 coins when killed. If, however, there is nothing else on the card about Grazius (not sure if you quoted all the text or not) and all we have is that he is a red giant model then yes, he is a Master and worth 50 coins.

Veritech said:

It does appear that way. I think we never noticed this and just used 'on' rather than 'over' - it makes more sense for destroying the herbs. Not that it ever makes a difference. Mogdir is too slow so unless the OL gets a Charge card or he makes his Undying roll (assuming no Staff of the Grave), he never gets an attack anyway.

Veritech said:

No. The use of enraged in the text is not capitalized and does not refer to the card 'Enraged'. It just mean he gets angry and starts to attack the heroes. Remember RtL is built in mind with only using the base game and does not require any other expansions to play. Since there is not explanation of 'enraged', and especially no explanation that matches the Enraged treachery card found in other expansions, it cannot be referring to that card (plus we have the non capitalization clue). Therefore Grazius' 'enraged' is merely a 'state of mind' associated with Grazius and nothing related to the Treachery card. It is just unfortunate that FFG don't seem to use a competent editor for Descent, who might have caught this sort of double use of a technical term.
And E nraged does not make a monster e nraged, it just gives 2 attacks and double MP. So you can't use it and claim to be e nraging Grazius. If you E nrage him and he is not e nraged due to surge roll, then he still cannot move and still cannot use his two attacks.

1: yes that was all the text on the card and the map layout has him represented by a Red Giant figurine so then yes he would be worth 50 coins, but nothing else (well other than 3 CT to the OL

2: This sort of becomes important if you can add spawn Treachery to your deck and a lone Ogre, though this would be rare and timing would be unlikely. The heroes have Star of Kellos which negates Undying within 6 spaces of the hero wearing it, the player who sold the "Staff of the Grave" actually wanted to change his mind a full round later while I was setting up the next encounter, I said no of course.

It also brings up another question, if a hero is knocked over two encounter markers at once, does that mean he can enrage and attack/move twice (once for each marker destroyed)? I notice four of them are paired as if to allow for a chance to knock a hero over two at once effectively giving Grazius two attacks and double movement if this is the case.

3: So he would be able to move and attack like a normal Giant since as you pointed out, the only rule applying to Enraged is the one in the expansions with Treachery, this means he wouldn't get two attacks or be able to move twice since neither the original game rule book or the RtL book have any ruling on Enraged monsters. This also brings up the question, is he considered "Activated" after rolling a surge, would any of the event cards, Rage, Charge or Enraged be playable on him? These cards require the monster to be "Activated" and it is unclear how Grazius is used in this circumstance.

So due to limited movement this means he is not a real threat, I'll keep that in mind, if the heroes start messing with herbs he might turn out useful, then again knowing my hero players they'll shrug off the 3 CT and just risk harvesting the potions or kill him (since attacking him doesn't cause him to become enraged).

And thanx for pointing out that bit about Treachery and it not being part of RtL specifically, I didn't spot that at all and would have totally missed it. I'll have to keep an eye out for more "editing" mistakes like this. I see you've been down this road before, and yah I didn't understand why it wasn't "on" instead of "over" when I read it the first time.

Veritech said:

No.

Forget E nraged . It is not relevant to the discussion at all, in any way other than as a confusing error.
Becoming e nraged (a unique state to Grazius) does nothing to Grazius other than remove the no attack/no move restriction he is under. That is all. It does not activate him, it does not give him an out of sequence turn/move/attack, it does not E nrage him.

Becoming double e nraged is meaningless, The first enragement is permanent (the restriction is removed as long as he is e nraged and there is no mechanism for ceasing to be e nraged once started) and you can't double remove something.

Veritech said:

It is perfectly simple, as long as you forget the E nraged card exists for a moment.

Grazius is a normal Master Giant, except he cannot move or attack, cannot be attacked by monsters, and the OL gains 3CT if he dies.
If Grazius is e nraged (only possible through messing with his herbs) then the restriction on moving or attack is removed. At all times though, he is just a normal Master Giant, activating (in case of tokens like Burn/Bleed/ Web etc) each turn during the normal sequence but unable to move or attack during his activation unless e nraged.

He is not activated by becoming enraged. Nothing anywhere suggest that he could be (only thoughts confused by E nraged ).
He activates normally both before an after being enraged. you can even play Charge/Rage/ E nraged on him when he activates, though if you do so before he is e nraged you are just wasting your resources.

Think of Grazius as a statue - just a lump of stone, though he can be attacked and destroyed (the statue can be damaged or even destroyed. If, and only if, his herbs are messed with the statue may come to life.

First, reread my post paying close attention to upper case Enraged, compared to lower case enraged. I wasn't asking if the monster was Enraged any longer, that was clear and understood with your first answer.

So the answer is simple, if a hero figure is knocked over one or two encounter markers, both markers are destroyed (according to the reading of the card) and Grazius may move and attack once immediately then turns back into a basic statue. That's all I needed to know was that if two encounter markers were destroyed by a monster with "Knockback" knocking a hero over two encounter markers would mean he would be able to attack and move once for each one destroyed, or just once that turn for both destroyed.

Keeping in mind you already admitted you've been playing it as "when the hero figure lands on an encounter marker", which makes requesting a clarification something common sense dictates. Since by this ruling you would only ever have to worry about the one encounter marker the hero could be knocked onto, not the two they could be knocked over.

Veritech said:

punctuation helps...

"All I needed to know was that if a monster with Knockback successfully knocked a hero figurine over two encounter markers (both are destroyed automatically according to the card), would that give Grazius 2 attacks, one for each encounter marker, or just one for both.

Since the card reads exactly "If a player is knocked back over an herb space, it is destroyed. After an herb is gathered or destroyed, remove the encounter marker and roll a black power die. On a surge, Grazius becomes enraged."

So in this case I would roll a black die for each encounter marker to see if Grazius was enraged/activated. If I rolled 2 surges, would this mean I get to attack for each encounter marker, or just one even though both were destroyed during that attack?

Wasn't asking if he got 2 attacks from the "Enraged" which it is already clear he doesn't. I was asking if you destroy 2 "herbs" in one attack, and rolled a surge for each one, would you get an attack for each successful surge, or would it just be a double chance to roll a surge to attack once that round?

Does this make better sense. Keep in mind I removed "Enraged" and Treachery from my thoughts when trying to answer these with your clarifications. And I understand completely I could have made this clearer.

I'm sure you get alot of "Stupid" and "Obvious" questions, and I'm sure I've asked a few in the past. But as you can see I have a valid query here.

1) JitD, pg. 16: Named monsters (e.g., Narthak) are unique monsters
described in the Quest Guide. Like master monsters,
they are represented by the red figures.

So, these are not master monsters and won´t earn the heros 50 gold when they kill them.

3) You don´t get any attacks if Grazius is enraged on a surge. As Corbon pointed out, simply his restriction of no move/no attack is removed on a surge. So, after destroying two herbs in one blow, if you roll a surge on the first die, you don´t have to roll for the second destroyed herb. The restriction is removed on the first surge and Grazius can be moved and attack when activated normally during subsequent OL´s turns.

Although I am not sure whether you really were still unclear on that part.

Treating Grazius as a statue until enraged is probably not a good way of looking at it, since the OL may play Dodge or "Sneak up on the Prey" cards on him even in the "statue" state, e.g. if the heros want to bring him down to low health just in case he is enraged later.

Veritech said:

No, Grazius does not move and attack once. He also does not then turn back into a statue.

He simply stops being a 'statue', once, permanently . He then moves and attacks during his normal activation exactly like a normal monster. He is in fact more normal , once enraged, since his 'special' restriction on moving and attacking has been removed.

Veritech said:

No, you don't get to attack at all at this stage.
Being enraged does not activate Grazius or allow him to make an out of order attack. It does nothing more than release the restriction he has that prevents him from attacking or moving during his normal activation.

Veritech said:

I tried to be very clear and cover both possible avenues of the question, but you appear to have completely missed large parts of my reply. You still appear to be under the misapprehension that becoming enraged somehow grants Grazius a move and an attack. It does not.

Lets abandon the statue analogy. Instead let us consider Grazius as a sleeping Master Giant, so old and tired of life than nothing rouses him from sleep (not even being hacked apart) except the 'screams' of his precious herbs being attacked (gathered/trampled/picked). But once roused from his slumber, he is just a normal Master Giant who does not go back to sleep unless the heroes leave the dungeon level permanently.

Thank you Parathion, I don't think even Corbon noticed that or he would have mentioned. Since there are no other Giant figures used on that level I think I'll just use a white one to represent him so my players don't have me arguing that that rule is actually feasable, if I use a red they'll make a case of it.

And Corbon, like my queries, your answers weren't clear, and yes after rereading it twice I figured out what you meant after you pointed out the relevant area. Those who already play it right wouldn't have seen it the way I did. I was unclear as to whether he attacked immediately or on the OL's turn, and now I get it.

Since that is the case, a future suggested strategy for heroes (which I wouldn't put here if my players read these forums). Have two characters with high speed and fatigue collect the six potions and move completely out of Grazius's range (easy eneogh unless the OL has a Charge or Enrage card). Have the other two hero's prep guard orders and move close but again out of Grazius range, then the OL has one moment to enrage him, and ingore him since you are safely out of movement range for an attack. This won't work with a low speed or fatigue hero group, but if you have moves to spare as mine does this level should take two, maybe three turns at most.

Actually if you have my group of heroes, have Silhouette collect all but the Encounter Marker farthest from Grazius, then have the other three hero players set up Guard orders if there is nothing to shoot. With her movement/fatigue and one stamina potion she could collect all of the potions, and still have 3 MP to play with, either to move beyond the reach of Grazius or other monsters, and depending how they move, possibly back behind the other Guarding heroes (27 MP with one stamina Potion, she has 9 fatigue, so 17 MP from fatigue and 10 running)