So I find myself in a qaundry. Poor, Kraken fel tried to contest with our heroes over the the fate of the Light of Terra. Of course there little squabble ended of with the good Mister Fel unconcious on the ship as it jumped back into the warp to continue it's crusade. My question falls to the disposal of his left behind ship and crew. Can my Jolly band of Misanthropes, claim it as rightful salvage or would it revert to the unfortunate Mr. Fel's dynasty. I am not sure what direction to go with it at the particular juncture.

If the Light of Terra is back in the warp, its pretty much gone, isnt it?

If someone has control of the ship, whoever kills the other side first......Out in the expanse, Imperial law is rather rough....

I think he means Fel's original ship which i gather is floating in the void next to the PC's ship when the Light of Terra jumped to warp.

i would say that the ship belongs to the Fel famely and rightfully to the next Rogue trader in said famely, unless the PC's want to resort to piracy and take the ship by force.

Depends on the loyalty of the crew and your PCs' honour.

If the PCs were in direct, armed conflict with Fel, I think they would be quite justified in claiming his ship as spoils of war. However, a claim is only as useful as their ability to enforce it.

The more important question is what the Fel Hand's bridge crew intend to do -- fight, flee or surrender. Assuming they have a reasonable chance of success, either of the first two options would seem more likely, as they are stand to benefit most by returning to ship to the Fel dynasty as loyal subjects (possibly with the new captain doing his best to negotiate for permanent command of this vessel or another one as his reward) or using this as an opportunity to simply take it for themselves. Simply handing the ship over to the PCs is likely to gain them the enmity of the Fel dynasty, with nothing to show for it and the distinct possibility that they will be replaced with officers of the PC's choosing.

Ok now lets see if i get this right.

Fels dead at this point, if pulled back its a "deus ex machina" device, akin to many sci fi stories. A good one, but nonetheless he can be considered dead at this point. The lIght of Terra will not return unless somethging big happens.

Ok so the PCs have the chance to grab Fels ship? It all depends on who has more firepower and if there was an armed conflict. If there was and the PCs have the firepower, they can easily grab the ship, execute any officers who try to prevent the PCs taking control. And have the enmity of the fel dynasty (which they might already have anyway, the pretty much killed the head of the dynasty).

The Fel dynasty needs an heir to keep working. If none is found, the dynasties dead and anyone can try to grab the ship anyway.

Seriously: any RT worth his salt would claim the friggin' ship. Why would they not? As Voronesh says: Fel is presumably dead at this point and his ship retreating. Retreating = there was a conflict and at any rate Hadrak Fell isn't the nice sort of chap nor the overly powerfull kind. If you can gut his dynasty of a ship, then do so. The PCs bested him once so having another ship in their fleet just means they can do so again. Knowing the worth of a single warp-capable vessel should be more then enough to take one off the hands of a rival dynasty. Especially with the dangers out there in the expanse: us humans have to present a united front to the Xenos and Malleus threats out there ... united under your PCs, that is.

How they handle the officers on said ship will be crucial. Most likely the ratings won't care one way or another so buying them off with some extra rations is all to easy. So buy off the officers or kill'm outright and keep the ratings happy and you got another ship.

Cyric313 said:

The ship belongs to a Rogue Trader Dynasty - as long as that Dynasty continues, the ship belongs to them. The PCs would be carrying out piracy by taking another Rogue Trader's ship as their own through force.

They have been defeated, and are retreating. The proper thing to do for a law-abiding Rogue Trader is allow it, as it is no longer a threat, to leave. Destroying Imperial vessels, regardless of whether you are friends with them or not, is just itching for trouble with the law if it is reported and you ever come back to Imperial space.

MILLANDSON said:

I concur. There are various trade battles all the time but actually taking another Rogue Trader's ship is against Imperial Law. Sure, they could take the ship and try to cover it up but the Fel dynasty is going to be very interested in what happened to it. All it takes is one eyewitness to land our PCs in hot water.

The only way you could get a legal right to another Rogue Trader's possessions was if you got some sort of special dispensation. If a Rogue Trader was declared a heretic and you fought against him, you might get to keep what you catch as long as it isn't obviously heretical. But under normal circumstances, there's no way your theft is legal.

MILLANDSON said:

Which basically means the Lathimon "war" would have rendered the dynasty etxtinct even if one brother would have won....

Oh well, no choice but to kill everyone aboard the enemy ship (destroy the geller field and life support, wait 1 week), strip it for the good parts, let the carcass rot for a decade and then return to recover the ship and rebuild it by refitting "other" parts (either those in cold storage from before, or newly bought ones).

The Fel dynasty can either claim the carcass of the ship by paying vast sums of money (skip the refitting step, increase PF) or they wont.

If there is no witness, there is no crime. Basically you have to take servitors for the "modification" of life support and geller field.

Voronesh said:

well unless you want to kill your own crew too you got a ship full of vitnesses, and it only takes one.

Well, since a witness has to SEE something.....

You cant see a ship in space. Simply have the Teleportatrium (segregated and closed off hangar) ready and get over there for a hit & run mission with lots of servitors. Any people that can be absolutely trusted are ok to go with you. Which should be the PC command crew in many cases. If a missionary is present, he could even proclaim the other ship sufficiently heretic. (Unsanctioned psyker really helps in this case)

Call it "secret negotiations" which unfortunately failed. The damned imbeciles decided they did not want to pay up (a horrendously expensive sum), and wanted to manage by themselves.

Return at a week later and salvage what you can. Either rename the vessel and purge all logs, or try to sell it to the remaining Fel dynasty.

If the full dynasty is dead anyway, you can now rightfully claim the vessel. At this point any witness is meaningless.

Heck its Fel we are tlaking about. Its not like we are trying to screw Lady Charlabelle or Abel Gerrit.

The rules apply to all, or they apply to none.

Seriously: the Imperium is basically a place of might makes right.

Fel attacked the player dynasty and got his arse kicked for it. It just goes to serve him right to lose the ship. If he complains he just looks all the weaker. The Expanse is not Imperial space and as such the rules don't apply there. Rogue traders are messing eachother up just as much as they are messing up xenos/chaos/humanities long lost offshoots.

Take the ship. If need be just keep it outside of imperial space till you can bribe the right persons to change the ship's deed over to the name of your dynasty. There is no problem that a little money can't solve. If Fell complains to the imperial authorities: they opened up hostilities and they had an unsanctioned psyker working for them. Nuff' said.

MILLANDSON said:

Well since im a CSM at heart, the rules done really apply to me at all . (so much vor all)

You cant have a Rogue trader without being part rogue....

And basically what badlapje said, the expanse is outside the imperium, so imperial law is hard to apply there.

Even FFG talks about how RTs tend to ignore parts of their warrant like helping colonists being under attack, if trading with the eldar who attack is just so much more profitable.

Why would a RT value profit differently when it is to be had by taking from a weaker (and decidedly dead) RT.

Badlapje said:

Imperial Law does apply to Imperial subjects, regardless of where you are, except to Rogue Traders in regards to their lessors, and in certain other areas (such as collecting xenos items, etc).

It doesn't mean the entirety of Imperial Law doesn't apply.

As Peers of the Imperium, the PCs and Fel are equals - stealing from him is still breaking Imperial Law, as you are interfering with a Rogue Trader in his divinely appointed mission.

Fighting - fine. Robbing them of a vessel required in carrying out his warrant - illegal.

MILLANDSON said:

Kill yes, rob no?

I thinjk you are forgetting the guy is pretty much dead in this discussion. He cant use his warrant anymore.#

BTW your interpretation means you can steal a ship from someoneif he has multiple...

Fighting someone to prevent him from carrying out his warrant is ok. But taking away his tool (which the guy just used to stop you from carrying out your warrant) no?

Fel is the guy that tries to stop you right from the start (into the maw) and even uses illegal means (unsanctioned psyker), but the player is supposed to be more of an honest man all of the sudden?

MILLANDSON said:

So it is fine for Fel to:

1. make use of unsanctioned psykers

2. attack the PCs who are his peers and have a warrant of their own, thereby attacking a loyal subject of the God-Emperor, with the intent of either robbing from the players (no way he wouldn't take their ship) or killing them entirely.

But it is not fine for the players after having proven to be to much for Fel to chew, to then take his ship.

Doesn't make sense. Fel already forfitted his Warrant by using an unsanctioned psyker. That's a big no no for anyone, even an Inquisitor or a Rogue Trader. He then went on to prey on Imperials rather then Xenos/Pirates/Chaos. The PCs defended themselves against an unwarranted attack and are taking the spoils of war. Simple as that. Unless Fel has allies within the Inquisition (and the PCs do not): no way the Inquisition will mind the PCs taking the ship. Wel, there is one other way and that's if some Inquisitor wants leverage because he needs the PCs to do something.

This is the 40k imperium. They don't care to much about who kills who, they care about:

1. people believing in the God-Emperor and not doing anything that contradicts this faith

2. people paying their tithes

3. expanding the Imperium

The rich and powerfull are given very big leeways in fighting their own petty wars. The Inquisition turns a very purposeful blind eye to that. One Rogue Trader taking the ship of another because the first attacked and lost? Nope, they won't mind.

Badlapje said:

Nitpick:

Inquisitors simply sanction psykers they need.

Rogue Traders on the other hand.....well since Fels psyker is unsanctioned, any friend he has in the I is either low ranking, or doesnt care about him too much. (If Fels Psyker is not too "off the path" about which nothing is told)

But beyond that, yeah a fully agree with you ^^.

There are a couple of Important things to remember about Imperial Law. Firstly Failure is a crime punishable by death at the very least, so the very fact that the PC's have defeated Fel make HIM guilty of breaking Imperial law by failing to comply with the terms of his Warrent of Trade. Secondly as has been pointed out the Imperium is quite happy to ignore breaches of Imperial Law, such as take overs of planets ect, as long as the over all running of the Imperium isn't unduely effected, and the example the new planetary rulers are still loyal to the Imperium. So as long the PC's used the vessel for the greater good of the Imperium, I would say that the Imperial Authorities would be happy to look the other way rather than have to put in the effort of bringing a Rogue Trader to Trial. Unless of course the Rival Dynasty could bring a claim to the Adeptus Arbites, bring along witness and have more political clout than the PC's have to force the Arbites into Action. Could be an interesting endevour for the PC's to have to use some political muscle to make the Arbites see things their way.

Chris

About the Imperium not caring, I suggest a look at Aspyce Chorda and her attempt to steal a planet, not a starship, a planet from Calligos Winterscale. Their whole relationship is in "Edge of the Abyss", basically the Imperium could care less who runs the planet as long as their tithe keeps coming in. For all intents and purposes Rogue Trader dynasties are monarchies subservient to the Imperium. The Imperium does not care what those piddeling little empire's do to each other so long as they advance the cause of the Imperium and it gets it's cut.

Can the Fel dynasty bring bring political pressure and sabatoge against the players, yes. Can they bring real or false evidence against them to the Arbities for crimes against the Imperium, yes. These though are the political tools used in everyday life for the normal Rogue Trader. So long as Imperial Law is not broken, and this is an empire that regularly wars with itself lets not for get, the Imperium itself wont really do much. The players should be far more worried about the Fel Dynasty and their allies, and they do actually have quite a few if I recall, than the Imperium itself.