Hello, while I love relic blades I have a small problem with their depiction in Deathwatch. They are just too awesome. They have a good chance to cut through any weapon that would otherwise be immune to power fields unless it's another relic.... Which means that the daemon weapon of a chaos general or the sword of an Exarch or Autarch could be gone in the first round of combat. While I think that you should cut with a relic blade through mooks like a hot knife through butter, battles with enemy leaders should still be duels. Not that you shouldn't have an advantage as a killing machine with a relic weapon, but I hope you know what I mean. My idea would be to exclude master-crafted versions of weapons that are immune to power fields from the special rule of the relic blade.

Give the enemy a relic. Or just let the player enjoy weapon superiority for a while.

It's one of humanities greatest close combat weapons, it should way waste to almost anything. If you think that something fancy should stay in play longer say it's also a relic, or reduce the chance of destruction.

I agree with you, but I don't think it necessarily needs a house ruling changing the wording of the weapon though, I would say that for the most part if an enemy is of master level then the weapons it possesses are probably relic weapons even if not explicitly stated to be so. They probably have the equivalent of hero renown etc so they can get their hands on relic level weapons. The only slightly weird one that I can think of is the Hive Tyrant because it's weapons are part of it.

But yeah I agree on the desired result, relic blades should not carve through the weapons of important master level enemies, or in my opinion pretty much any heretik or chaos hero important enough to have a name

Narkasis Broon said:

Well, its Scything Talons are Natural Weapons, and so it can't parry to begin with. I assume that if you give it a Lash Whip and Bonesword, they are also Natural. It's kind of a pity that a HT can't parry when it literally has a sword for a hand, though.

you can parry a hive tyrant though, relic blade works both ways

Ah, that's right. Yeah, special cases like that should be immune.

Simply making weapons of important enemies relics is a houserule too. I just thought that it would have two benefits, you have definite rules when something can withstand a relic blade (and who besides a boss has master-crafted weapons?), and people who prefer other weapons don't feel so neutered when fighting beside one. I have to check on the Hive Tyrant though if he can grow master-crafted stuff. Even though with such a giant cutting off his weapons is right back into funny territory.

I can see why you say its just another house rule, but I think it is subtly different, because flat out changing the effect is changing a rule because we don't like how it plays out. Wheras page 373 the box on modifying enemies essentially says that the bad guys you are fighting "can, and should," completely within RAW be given any equipment and talents the GM wants. that includes relics for master level enemies in my opinion

I think that if PC space marines can get master crafted weapons relatively easily (what is it, get to distinguished and then ask for them) then NPC space marines and chaos space marines should have a reasonable chance of having master crafted weapons as well. Especially Chaos marines. some of them are veterans of 10000 years. That opens the door for the possibility of some other elites having master crafted weapons as well.

and yeah I would definitely allow a PC with relic blade to start cutting off limbs of a hive tyrant, sounds like a laugh I once had a player who parried all 4 arms off a genestealer with a relic blade

Narkasis Broon said:

Well, of course you can simply say that the weapon of a master-level enemy counts as a relic but I would prefer it if relics would still be something special instead of a label put onto a fairly standard weapon. And then if I start making Xenos relics it becomes a houserule again.

Narkasis Broon said:

I wouldn't compare Deathwatch weapon availability with that of Codex or Chaos Marines. The Deathwatch is an organization that operates in small commando teams whose special weapons are usually assigned on a per mission basis and that has the backing of the Ordo Xenos and great ties to the Mechanicus. Other Marines act in bigger forces or warbands where many just carry standard gear. Even though there is already an inflation of power weapons in the latest Codex Space Marines...

Narkasis Broon said:

Hehe, the jaw was next?

At one point I was making up rules for genestealers using their ovipositor as a weapon. the funniest thing was that because the genestealer had such a high agility and multiple dodges even with lightning attack the relic blade wielding assault marine has having trouble hitting the armless genestealer, so the fight was a bit of a standoff until the techmarine came in and overpowered it with sheer number of attacks

lol double-teaming on a disarmed (literally) opponent, what kind of Space Marine does that?

Relic blades should be good. Especially because they're a two-handed weapon, which are otherwise mechanically inferior in every way to using two weapons.

Let them cut through anything like butter, but feel free to use plot-hammer protection on certain weapons. Greater Demons for example deserve a level of plot protection.

Or...y'know... have the demon's demon-sword cut in two, hence destroying the blade, but unleashing another demon from it's confinement... That'll be fun...

@mjoellnir I dunno, a genestealer ovipositoring you is just about the most threatening thing I can imagine happening to a marine I dont know what would happen, but it could not be good.

@siranui sometimes me and you have quite different opinions, but sometimes, like right now, you hit the nail right on the head because surprising players with more daemons is always fun

Siranui said:

And of course, that daemon has another daemon-sword! :|

Narkasis Broon said:

I aim to please on not-too-much of a regular basis

i kindof fancy writing an adventure around this now, pc's destroy a chaos lords daemon sword and set loose an even more powerful greater daemon that was bound to the sword. then the PC's have to go find way to contain the daemons essence before it brings down the sector. The most surefire way of course is to reforge the daemon sword, trap the daemons essence in it and then store it in watch station erioch for all time. corruption and insanity points for everyone

I'd certainly be tempted to write it, then use as appropriate, as a complication in the event of a demon's sword getting chopped up. I tend to have a pile of such 'side quest/complication' scenarios ready for use as appropriate.

I don't think I'd be happy with the idea of writing the entire scenario with the deliberate intent that the PC's *would* sunder the blade, and pivoting the plot on that.

There's nothing quite like the PC's doing something dramatically off-piste, or something going horribly wrong in an unplanned manner, and being able to pull a handful of prepared notes and stats out of the 'in case of emergency' folder!

Siranui said:

Yes, relic blades should be awesome. But at the moment they are outshining everything else, even Necron and Eldar weapons (who had a few billion years more time to develop their killing implements). The idea to release a daemon by destroying a daemon weapon is funny.

Narkasis Broon said:

Well, according to Mark of the Xenos p. 40: "Special Deathwatch treatments and a Space Marine’s own physiology ensure that Deathwatch Space Marines are immune to this effect." So I would be more afraid of its teeth.

Narkasis Broon said:

Why build a new daemon weapon? There should be other, less useful ways to trap them.

lol I would think after 60 million years everything a necron owns would be a relic

and thats interesting about deathwatch treatments making them immune to genestealing. I just knew that a lot of space hulk missions are based on the principle of "zomg stealers have our battle brothers, to prevent them from stealing the geneseed we must burn the whole room"

Mjoellnir said:

It's kind of what you're paying for when you spend 50 req on one, though. For comparison, they could just be spending 'mere' signature wargear on a powersword with +20WS and +2damage. And then using a powerfist in the other hand. That's far more danagerous.

I'd certainly allow eldar weapons and necron weapons to be destroyed by a relic blade. I'd only render the effect useless against very powerful weapons used by important characters.

Remember that the NPC could avoid the effect by either dodging instead of parrying, or by feinting in order to prevent parries.

Siranui said:

Personally, I treat the weapons of Exarchs as relics (because they actually are), but that's it amongst the weapons of the Eldar. Necron weapons I won't allow to be broken that way, simply because of the "arcane science"/"but... but... that's impossible" angle that should be prevalent when Necrons are about.

Narkasis Broon said:

Necrons are masters of stasis technology and self-repair..

Narkasis Broon said:

I would have said that this could be because the Genestealers could bring the genetic information back to their hive fleet where it would become part of the gene pool, but in a fluff piece that was on the website years ago a chaplain condemned claims that geneseed DNA had been found in the genetic structure of tyrant guards as heresy so I thought they didn't know about that possibility.

Siranui said:

Or you could get a thunder hammer and a shield. But this isn't about the requisition cost. It's about style or the lack of it when you can cut short any duel by sundering your opponents weapon.

Siranui said:

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I agree about the Exarch weapons and would also add Autarch and Farseer weapons. I didn't mean that the Relic Blade should be unable to destroy any Eldar weapons. But there should be Eldar weapons that are as good or better. Concerning the Necrons... While rumours say that it will change with the next codex Necron warscythes at the moment still ignore any and all force fields. So it makes more sense of one cutting a relic blade apart than the other way around. While that would make for a nice HOLY SH** moment it would again go against the epic duels I like.

Siranui said:

Eldar power swords are built for parrying. They give a nice +20 bonus on that. Of course the NPC doesn't have to engage the wielder of a relic blade in melee at all. Why not just grab a reaper launcher and shoot the bastard?

Mjoellnir said:

One could counter about the lack of style involved in ending a duel by knock-down and stock-locking the foe with a thunderhammer!

Basically, Relic Blades are a bit of a poor choice next to the thunder hammer, or using two weapons. What they have going for them is that powerfield. Nerfing it at every turn just because the GM wants a better fight isn't a good solution. As I said: I would only have it 'fail' very rarely because of that. If I want a 'good fight' without it happening, I would do my upmost to avoid stooping to 'it doesn't work because my sword is made of uberonium' and instead simply equip foes with 'step aside' and have them dodge. It's much less of a 'screw you' to the player that way.

Siranui said:

You mean there is a difference between throwing someone down and hammering him into pieces and destroying his weapon and cutting him into pieces?

Siranui said:

First of all nobody talks about nerfing it at every turn, only for boss fights. And avoiding "my sword is made of uberonium"? Hello? Humanity who at best still sat on trees and picked lice out of each others fur while other races already waged interstellar war has found a way to make a power field so special that it can cut through anything that isn't listed in one of the RPGs as a human relic. Sorry, but that's BS (no, not ballistic skill).

Now let's look at what the problem of the relic blade is. In the TT the big advantage is that it gives you S 6 attacks in initiative order. The other options are usually +1 S 4 attacks in initiative order (normal power weapon and pistol) or S 8 attacks that always strike last (power fist or thunder hammer). In the RPG the thunder hammer doesn't strike last but it's disadvantage is that you can't parry with it. However, since it's one-handed you can off-set that with a shield that also gives a hefty bonus to parrying. In the TT you could use both, a relic blade and a shield, but in the RPG that's not possible. So yeah, it looks like the relic blade got shafted except for the "uberonium" powerfield. However, I would much prefer something like Balanced and/or Proven and Felling to make it better...

BS? A comment about a way to manage the situation with minimum negative impact on the player? How so? It's far more disheartening for a player to be essentially told that 'X doesn't work because of plot protection' than it is for the issue to be avoided by...well; avoiding the issue in a literal sense by having the protagonist dodge, rather than parry, and to feint. I think you missed my point.

But... at least there are fairly easy ways to mitigate the relic blade, and even the TH's stun. The knockdown though is a hard issue to deal with, unless the party are facing giant space slugs.

Even with two-handed TH/RB wielding you *can* use a combat shield with any two handed weapons, according to FFG. So it still requires yet another fix.

Balanced for the RB is where my feelings lay, coupled with minimising the number of times 'it doesn't work because their weapon is cool, too' is used as much as is humanly possible.