My players have recently found a large sum of money at their disposal and have decided that among other things they would require a little extra "umph". They are rank 6-7 so I have allowed them limited access to Inquisitorial Equipment from the Inquisitors Handbook pending my call about particulars (no Rosarius's although they are just RARE for some reason)..

As such and as expected a huge arguement errupted. I submit our concern to the community... why is the Hexagramic Ward at a cost of 2500 thrones (which we assume is the cost of the various ritual equipment and special paints or what not used to inscribe the wards)when it basically nullifies most psychers no matter how potent they are. +20% on a Willpower Roll (combined with a re-roll from unshakable faith and bonus from flaggelant for example) and double armor on the direct damage abilities (ie the carapace goes to 12) means that unless someone has like 7-8 power dice he will find it almost impossible to harm the Acolyte in question.

On the other hand you have an implanted Psy-jammer that costs 12.000 thrones and just gives the +20%.

I find this exremely strange and without logic and wonder if any of you have any ideas of how to work it out.

PS>

Would the wards or jammer have any effect on a psycher using Weapon Jam on you? If you armor is inscribed does it also mean your weapons become immune? How about the photovisor IN your stormtrooper carapace helmet?

Its a great argument from a meta game, power game point of view. What I love about wahammer, and dark heresy is alot of things don't perform in a linear by power lvl approach. Things need to perform in a story setting approach. The rituals of the adeptus mechanicus bring this into light.

An mechanicus need only really push the red button to activate the warp drive. (we know as players and a gm, just push the button) The mechanicus doens't know that. They see the entirety of the ritual as how the warp drive is activated, chants , oils inscense ets. The mechanicus can't see past the world in which he exists to just push the button and forget the rest of the time wasting money wasting rubbish of the ritual since all he needs to do is push the red button.

Now what fun would it be to play in dark heresy as a mechanicus if you took that ritual and roleplaying experience away and setting flavor and the mechanicus just pushed the red button. It destroys the setting, it nerfs the fun that is 40k.

I submit to you that the difference between the 2 equipment choices is the percieved effectiveness of them, the ritual and cultural experience of them. The little understood lore behind it.

Its like the difference between watching 2 a video of war with different tanks on the battlefiled perform. One tank blows the other away. To those who don't know, its ooooo look at that mighty tank that just dusted the other one. An expert (aka a player with the stats in front of them would say) actually the tank that got destroyed was the better tank stat wise, it has better stats in every category. The tank that blew it away just rolled good and got some some serious critical hit dice on the other tank.. That kind of thinking, knowing the stats ruins the game in my opinion. Present equipment, and powers etc. By their percieved effect in the setting. Use the lore and description text to choose things as players. Not the stats. Alcolytes can't see a bolters tearing quality and know its stats. They see the result, mutilated cultists, I guess a bolter is better than my snub gun, my snub cant eviserate people! Embrace the setting, not the rules and the game will be more fun and vibrant.

That is the difference between the 2 my friend.

Well, say, with the Psy-Jammer, you implant it in your head. Anybody looking at you, would never notice, and Psyker's probably won't until it's too late. Meanwhile, with the Wards, you've got to be wearing that armour for it to take effect. I don't think many people would be walking around in Carapace or Power Armour in an investigation, non?

Kind of in agreement. Consider that you are looking at Imperial Society and its economics from a rational-capitalist point of view.

What your original post is about is: why would i spend that money on a psi-jammer when i can get wards for more or less the same price which are better?

You assume that acolytes (or citizens, or Inquisitors for that matter), have equal access, choice and understanding to all things in the handbook equally. Simply not so.

For example, the term 'rare availability' is simply an abstract game concept. It doesn't represent the reality of getting the aforementioned bit of kit. From a game stats/ability and cost-effective points of view of course players are going to take the wards. If they can of course get them.

2 examples where players don't have a cjhoice between the two:

1) Acoylte team are tasked with taking out an evil psyker. the inquisitor gives the run of his private armoury, giving them access to rare kit, but they must leave collateral (ie cash). the team decide they must take some anti-psionic kit but the only thing available is a psi-jammer. no wards. do they 'buy' the jammer? or leave empty handed?

2)The Acolyte team are not the holiest of holies. Not very nice. In fact they are simply inquisitorial sanbctioned scum that no Ecclesiarch would touch in a squillion years. But they do have friends in the Mechanicus. Whiuch bit of kit are they more likely to get hold of?

Not the best examples perhaps, but you see my point. DH is not a game of rationality sometimes, try to to reason with it too much.

Could also be due to difference between using relics and an ancient piece of arcane technology.

Necronomicus said:

An often overlooked point of view, and I like it.

The only way I can see it survive in a game with printed stats that PCs start to memorise from the first time they decide to build a shopping list, is to 'add' GM/campaign specific equipment.

Rather than re/write inexhaustable equipment lists, or lists of 'unqiue items', how about just prefixing a few campaign specific 'qualities'? To make a truely unique item that PCs will desire, but not fully understand, just take an exisitng piece of equipment and add one or more quality which only the GM understands.

Qualities can be anything, as long as they fit the game, and have a cool name! Qualities could be named after their creation, their function, religious signifcance, history, modifications, etc. but only the GM will know what they are.

Examples:

"Saruthian" items are modified, by those who have studied the Saruthi race (an Abnetism), to extend their operational range possibly by traversing the warp.

"Sanctified" items known throughout the Ministorum as those blessed by the Eclesiarchy to resist warp effects.

"Extremis" weapons, it is whispered, are those modified by Grey Knights weaponsmiths to be more effective against psykers.

"Chromed" weapons is those which comes from one or two sources in Gunmetal City, and uses a special metallic coating that is said to resist jamming?

"Blackened" armour is armour worn by a Priests of Maccabeus when they were killed, and perhaps is now imbued with the psyche of that worthy?

The point is that you don't have to keep lists of unquie items, and that you as GM are they only one to know what each of the properties means. Make the price exhorbidant and just watch Players scramble for them ; )

Insequential you and I are on the same page. Thats some good stuff.

To counter-act some of the arguements presented here so that you see my dilemmas more clearly.

I will start with the mechanicus comment and how the view the world and technolodgy as the "its not the button pressing that makes it work, its the prayer". While on the first hand I get it on the other hand it seems ridiculous because through force or accident someone is bound to have pressed the button with any preparation and the thing still turned on. Secondly and more importantly in this particular game of hours half the classes get Tech-Use anyway... adepts, assassins, clerics, psychers and arbiters also have Tech-Use. They dont have mechandendrites to interface with the machine but unlike described in the fluff more often than not many many acolytes in a group (if not all) are "just" as good as the Mechanicus guy (okay they dont have tech-use +20 but they may have other gear to counteract that) in tinkering with machines and to further make things worse they are not bound to the various omnissiah laws (and they have Impirial Creed beliefs and not Omnissiahs creed).

But I digress...

To the opposition between device or wards I have to reply as above... if we assume our game world feels scared and awed by technolodgy why would they prefer to have something implanted in their skull than a ward made on their armor? The only reason I can imagine is the fact that it is discreet! Even the arguement about an Inquisitor having into his "storeroom" tech as opposed to the wards is false! According to disciples anyone with Forbidden Lore Daemonlogy can create wards against daemons and hence I am pretty sure that making wards of this type would require Forbidden Lore Warp and Psychers. Hence on one hand we have a device that has a high relative cost and is unique while on the other hand you have something that you can create given time and resources (2500 thrones worth of materials).

Furthermore, my acolytes as I have are rank 6-7... I do believe we are at a Trusted+++ acolyte level were when the pcs are sent to investigate or even go undercover without help from other impirial forces then their Inquisitor would grant them access to the Tricorn's military resources since they will be on their own and need all the help they can get and they are trusted and loyal and capable enough to have made it so far (22 years in game time).

PS>

As for investigation and covert ops while wearing carapace... I dont see how it is a problem. Given that my players in particular (and I am pretty sure most acolyte cells in the game world) more often than not do need to resort to violence at some point and hence it comes in handy... not to mention that most times they have someone operating officially (like the Arbites character that visits the planet as a high ranking arbites officer from scintilla coming for an inspection) while the rest are underground using Coblast Assay identities (ie bounty hunters, reclamaitors, hired guns and the like). Those undreground agents can be armed and armored and dangerous and hence the armor.

Last but not least. Say you are a very very higly paid bounty hunter, you have contacts and allies in many facets of the Imperium (adepta, underworld etch) And your "client" asks you to take care of a psycher target... do you seek your underworld contatcs to provide information about the corrupt pedophile Ecclesiarchy official and then blackmail him to inscribe your armor with wards on not? I certainly would!

It's really quite simple. It has nothing to do with stats:

The jammer is implanted, and can't be easily noted as what it is. Also it's a piece of extremely rare tech. (Thus the price.) For a group that is covert all the time the jammer is golden, and the wards near useless. You simply can't show up with a suit of best quality carpace, and/or power armor. (If you do the bad guys are long gone.) Much less one inscribed with forbidden mystical symbols. You're happy when you can wear dinged up guard flak withou blowing your cover.

The hexagramic wards must be put on a suit of armor, and are as obvious as hell. (Basically you might as well be wearing a big =][= on your chest.) Also note they are some thing that only people with a certain set of forbidden lore know how to create. (Such wards can also be used in Daemon summoning.) For a group who is rarely covert the wards are the obvious choice.

But that is just the thing, I do not see why in order to be undercover you have to wear tatters and plain clothes! Half the underworld and 90% of the various cult agents are armed and armored to the teeth. As for the the actual use of wards, if I was an evil cultist trafficking with daemons and new how to make wards the first thing I would do is put them on my armor, my sword and my gun so if something goes horribly wrong the daemon cant slaughter me!

Also where does it say that you need best quality armor to put it on? Its also part of my concern as in sanctified weapons they need to be good quality while armor does not have such a rule?

arcona said:

Well, I don't see how they are armed to the teef, per say. I don't think they're running around with Carapace nor Power Armour. It's a big difference. Note, if one of the cultists sees hexagrammic wards, wouldn't they go completely underground or go? I think it'd be the smart thing to do, since that just screams something is up.

AFAIK it's best quality necessary.

arcona said:

I disagree with a few other of your points but I am going to pick this one mainly because it shows the type of assumptions players make about the setting.

You were kind of arguing to the letter of his argument even though he was generalising the views on technology in the Imperium with the appropriate amount of exagerration for effect but still you are a bit off in your assumtions. The tech use skill is a bit out of place in 40K because many people will know how to use a specific piece of technology well but have no idea of what other things can do. This means they will get the tech use skill on thier advance tree because they know how to use some specific technology. Also in the case of using machines they will use the rituals they will have been taught by the Adeptus Mechanicum because in the Imperium their word is law in respect to technology. Whether you are a part of the Ad Mech or not you will obey their instructions in respect to technology. This is one of the reasons that the Ad Mech and the Ecclesiarchy dont get on very well because the Ecclesiarchy dont like the fact that thier followers have to follow the rituals of the Adeptus Mechanicum.

Something else you mentioned about finding out that the button works regardless. The Ad Mech is well aware that the machine will turn on regardless of whether the rituals are carried out or not but the consequences of running such a machine in their eyes can be catistrophic. Without appeasing the machine spirit of the life support on a ship would result in atmosphere being vented and areas being flooded with toxic gasses and they aren't all wrong, part of the ritual will be necissary for good maintenance, it may contain code words that the system designed thousands of years ago recognises they just dont know what part of the ritual is required and it seems to work so they assume the whole ritual is needed.

While you may say simple machines that are all mechanical would not be effected then you are right but the ritual of awakening a car will take 2 seconds to preform and so the supersticious Imperial citizen will do it anyway without even thinking it wont make a difference. Now the players know this rubbish and so dismiss it but their characters wont, if you are taking a tech use test then the character is preforming these rituals to the best of his abilities incase the thing blows up or something else particularly nasty.

There is also the problem that if you were caught not preforming the rituals by any member of the Adeptus Mechanicum they have the power to lock you up and have you executed for heresy even if you aren't a member.

What you have done is looked at the game and assumed that means thats how the background works but, as quite often happens, you are forgetting that the game is meant to work in conjunction with the setting. They cant incorperate every detail in an RPG for a setting this vast an complicated so their is many simplifications and concessions made by the designers with the idea that the players can fill in the gaps for themselves. If they didn't do this the game would work on d1000's and the rulebook would need to be published in 4 volumes.

This ties in with the point of this thread is that you have to work to make the rules work within the setting and this sometimes means doing things that are counter intuative. One of the reasons that the Hexagramic Wards are cheaper is because they are on armour and to work effectively they have to be intact and as armour tends to get damaged the wards would lose effectiveness and they would need careful attention after each ware to make sure they are intact. The technological component will just work. Unforunately the rules enforce none of this because it would be alot of effort when they could just let the player use their common sense.

Of course that might be a bit much to ask.

Kaihlik

arcona said:

You don't always, but the average 40k person is rather poor. You don't want to stand out. Also most of the bad guys in the published adventures aren't exactly armed with the best gear.

arcona said:

You could, but you would never wear it in public. Even knowning how to make wards is enough for the =][= to execute you. See DoDG

arcona said:

I don't think it does, but if I were a PC swimming in loot I'd buy best quality armor before I started putting wards on things. Best quality guard flak is actually great armor vs boltguns and the like.

Another 2 cents. There are alot of things that are overpriced in the real world. Price doesn't always equal value. Also the wards being obvious in nature, and external can be ruined and destroyed easier. They would be also cheaper to create, even though more effective in game terms, than the expensive and less effective jammer which is high tech and therefore more expensive. DnD has created alot of tunnel vision with 1st lvl equipment is cheap, 20th lvl equipment is expensive. And you see the same garbage repeated in MMO's and video games. Its an artificial enviorment where you can create an item where price does equal power effectiveness aka value.

40k being a break from the norm follows RP and setting determine value and price, not the stats.

Considerations, if i was a heretic i'd dump acid or flame throw, the guy wearing the armor.

The implant being internal would most likely break from a fatal wound to the target. But implant breaking is the least of his worries. At least no one is gunning for him. And the demonhost targets the guy with the wards because, he wants him dead for wearing such profane vestments. Meanwhile the heretic psyker is clueless about the implant and wastes a crucial show of power on a well defended mind.

Well, I side on meta-game balance over in-game handwaving.

You're right. The prices are out of line. I'd bump up the cost of the hexagrammic wards (tripled to 7500 sounds about right to me) and restrict it to those who have proven themselves to the Ecclesiarchy. I'd also make them degrade whenever the armour is damaged (ie. it stops any damage - how about -1% for each wound it absorbs?).

The increased price but downside of giving the wearer away and the protection it offers degrading make them about equal, IMO.

vs

The jammer is internal , requiring surgery . It ALWAYS with you always working and invivsable. The wards are on your armor. Although not Necessarily obvious (they could be on the inside of the armor, or made very subtely, or blended into art work on the armor) the armor must be worn for them to work. The armor can be lost, destroyed or simply not worn in a given situation. These are inherent flaws that result in the lower cost.

As an aside, I would allow the wards to be placed on other items such as robe, cloack, overcoat ect. I would even allow them to be tattooed ( ala Grey Knights who have wards on their armor and as subdermal tattoos) on the players. Of course the price would be modified for each of these cases as would the availability.

Dagda said:

The reason why I see them needing carapace or power armour is the need for a fairly ridgid and large surface area. While I agree that it is possible on other items, it would require much more specialised circumstances to allow it and I would probably say that the GM would have to offer it as a reward (with the appropriate huge price) instead of it being an option for the players to pick.

Kaihlik

I know power armor is a bit obvious, but could carapace armor be concealed under robes?

Letrii said:

Check out the Magistratum Carapace armour pic in the Inquisitor's Handbook. I'd say it'd be pretty impossible to conceal that under anything smaller than a tent.

voidstate said:

Ah, I thought regular carapace would be smaller, since it doesn't include the gadgetry that one does. Would wearing noticeable heavy armor be a major impediment in operations, say in a hive?

You would stick out like a sore thumb wearing carapace in a hive tbh. The fact that it is pretty much limited to official Imperial organisations marks you out pretty quickly. Also a under hiver would never be able to afford Carapace and even if he could he would never be able to find the stuff. Wearing carapace under robes would just make you look like you are wearing carapace under robes, basically you would be fooling no one. If you were trying to blend in with a gang in the Underhive one of the stupidist things you could do would be to wear carapace, not only would they figure you out but they would try and kill you to steal it.

Flak on the other hand is so common that you could get away wearing it anywhere, thats the reason it is used in the guard, it is easy to mass produce.

Kaihlik

voidstate said:

Note that hexagrammic wards fall uner the Inquistion, and tech priests rather than the Ecclesiarchy. They aren't holy. They are technological in nature. (see the IH description) Which is not to say that the =][=, and Grey knights don't add religious symbols and such to dress them up. They are in fact also covered by prayers, symbols and what not.

PS- Note that there are also pentagrammic wards which with I often confuse with hexagrammic. (see DotDG) Which are more tradition inscribed symbols.

voidstate said:

Ever seen a Dark Angel?

You could easily conceal even power armor from a casual obsever. But not close inspection.

While I agree that it is possible on other items, it would require much more specialised circumstances to allow it and I would probably say that the GM would have to offer it as a reward (with the appropriate huge price) instead of it being an option for the players to pick.

Kaihlik

Of course, as I said at a modified cost and availability.