Firstly, it’s Khornate, with an ‘a’.

Secondly, the Blood Ravens are not Khornate. Having Blood in your name does not make you Khornate. The Blood Ravens are a Loyalist Chapter.

Thirdly, if the Chief Librarian of the Blood Ravens did fall to Khorne, he would quickly lose his favour with Khorne or lose the ability to use his powers, as Khorne does not allow for psykers.

BYE

Voronesh said

H.B.M.C. said:

Oh wow talk about strawman arguments.

Why do you even bother correcting a obvious misspelling and then including it in you argument by saying "firstly".

Secondly. What? Who claimed anything about that? The blood ravens are a loyalist chapter who split in two thanks to a Psyker who first fell to Nurgle but fell out of favour. He then turned to Khorne who was very pleased with him apparantly because he 1. Split the Blood ravens i two. 2 Plunged a sector into war. 3 Fooled the =I= to exterminate a planet.

In return Khorne made him a Daemon Prince greatly enhancing his abilities.

Stop assuming stuff without sources.

Ergo: Khorne allows Psykers.

Now stop fooling around.

That would be one source of dubious canonicity (may I remind of the dozens of Baneblades being assembled on a backwater planet in a certain campaign?) against... how many?

XiMao626 said:

1. No but the higher up the ladder you want to be the more you are going to lean towards the extreme (of some kind). If applied, that would mean that Khornate Psykers are the S*** on the floor for Khorne. And Snipers just one measly rung above that. So ok you could play a Khorne sniper. But every actual Khorne follower would look down upon you. YES that means the measly culstist with a chainswrod is higher on Khornes favor than the sniper.

2. No the dread cant fire, because it automatically misses due to the fast pass drop in technique used by Space Marine ladnign vessels as shown in DOW. Fluff = rules. The IG doesnt always lose, you dont read enough fluff apparently. There are eenough stories by GW out there, where the IG kicks any ass without any SM help. (OK mabye not necs, but even Nids get kicked in the gonads by the IG more than often enough) And yes even without some super special character. More troops, means more battles can be fought. Nobody has more troops than the IG: Do the math.

3. First time, which has not been retconned away again. Nitpicking doesnt really help here. Ok i was a bit off. But 2nd edition even had different rules. Back then a game was even described as turn one the infantry dies, turn 2 the tanks die, turn 3 the psykers duke it out. (Sentence by the guy of the Fighting tigers of Vega)

4. Using chainswords in Space.... Come close to my tank so i can hit you with my sword? I have more than enough evidence. Plase reread the current CSM Codex. His favourd servant is Kharne. Nope no sniper rifle. His favoured daemons are bloodletters. Nope cant shoot. His greater daemon is also missing any ranged weapon.

5. Did i mention: Drive me close so i can hit them with my sword? Yes its a meme motivational poster for 40k. Tanks arent meant to be melee. Same way a dog wont be able to use a gun. Hence Khorne gets the dogstyle daemons and Tzeentch has his flamers instead. Humans can be both, and Khorne favours the melee guys.

You claim i have no evidence. Yet you simply dismiss all Khorne characters GW puts out? Uhrmm lets turn tables. Show me the Sniper cahracter that is best friends with the god on the skull throne.

Cifer said:

What he said.

Plus FFG canon disallows it. So we are in a case of yes if you play DOW you can certainly do a Khornate Psyker. But this is FFG BC where you cant.

Or you check Gavs blog. (sry its 1am and i just dont want to check the RT threads for the link) which states that GW fluff is the only instance that can retcon GW fluff.

So basically there can be anything you want in DOW. If it is in contradiction with GW fluff, GW wins.

I mean the Blood Ravens defeated a full Hive fleet with only a single company (at least thats the feeling i get in the campaign)........but that single company can have up to 10.000 troopers if you let em die often enough.

So do we get to make an arguement about Space Marine companies having divisional strength now? Of course not. Game mechanics and to a certain extent their stories arent necessarily full blown its 100% canon.

Well, I think the happenings in DOW and classical GW Lore can be aligned. The question would be: Does this Daemon Prince of Khorne born from a psyker still have its psychic powers? Because the good old rules of becoming a Daemon from 'Slaves to Darkness' kindly inform us that: "The Daemon Prince also gains the magical powers of Greater Daemons of its God". Knowing full well that a Blood Thirster (the Khak'akaoz'khyshk'akami for those with a smattering of Dark Speech) have a clear "Daemons of Khorne do not use magic" written on their statline, there is nothing stopping Khorne elevating a worthy Psyker of Chaos Undivided to Daemonhood, and then directly stripping him of those pesky spells once he has accepted to serve Khorne and Khorne alone.

So, Undivided Psykers devoting themselves to Khorne on getting the chance of Ascension, yes. But their magical powers would then be void. Just as this old tome states quite clearly that Worl Eater Librarians "have no psychic abilities. Khorne disdains the use of psychic powers, and his followers have renounced their abilities to please their chaos master".

Friedrich van Riebeeck, Navigator Primus, Heart of the Void

P.S. I know that these tomes are old, and technically newer material is more canonical. But these books were written before the time that GW tried to get toddlers interested in buying more and more of their miniatures and decided to simplify everything as much as possible. So I apply Imperial Rules to their canonical value: Ancient, so treasured and wise.

Voronesh said:

1. Do you have proof that a Khornate sniper would be rated so lowly? And why do you keep bringing up snipers when I keep trying to talk about duelists? You know, people who use Swords with precision rather than brute force? Or is it because I used the word assassin, which in 40k parlance can mean anything from a precise Vindicare temple assassin to a Raving Death Cultist hopped up on slaught and stimm?

2. Can't hit their target and unable to discharge their weapon are two very different concepts here. With the Storm Raven Rules wise, it's the latter even if Fluff wise it's the former while the Raven is moving. What if the Raven is in hover mode and stationary? Would a dread still automatically miss? Your fluff=rules argument is quite shakey methinks. For your IG argument, you are assuming then that the Guard is winning battles that we are not told about? This is probably very true, but it's not fluff. Unless GW specifically tells us about something it's not cannon fluff. And I don't recall any line in any book that specifically states "The Imperial Guard wins the majority of the battles they engage in and they do it without the aid of Space Marines or Legendary Heroes." To assume that this is the truth is to assume that you can predict what the GW Fluff writers are going to produce.

3. Just because 2nd ed had different rules doesn't make it a different game. It was set in the same universe, in the same way that all of the Star Wars movies are set in the same Universe, as much as I don't want to admit that anything after Return of the Jedi are actually Star Wars Movies. Just glad we could clarify that point there.

4. His greater daemons can have the Deathstrike of Khorne which seems to be a barbed whip, or a Brass Skull of Khorne. It is expressed as a Ranged Attack. Beyond that, a Whip is a weapon that requires a great deal of precision to use as a lethal weapon. You need to know how to use and aim it properly or you end up just hurting yourself or having an ineffective weapon.

5. As I recall, older editions of CSM had vehicle upgrades that allowed them to actually damage enemies in something akin to close combat, long before the ramming rules were re-introduced to 40k. Orks get the Deff Rolla and the Wrekking ball which are both as close to melee attacks as non-walker vehicles get...What I'm saying with the Tower of Skulls example is that we have examples of non-walker vehicles that can do damage in something that closely approximates Melee Combat...and yet the Tower of Skulls lacks such attachments.

To your last point. I still maintain that you have no evidence that Khorne only favors Frothing Melee Berzerkers. Can I show evidence that Khorne favors snipers? No. But I can show evidence that Khorne does not only favor Frothing Melee Berzerkers because of the Tower of Skulls and the Deathstrike of Khorne. One of them is a very brutal ranged attack platform that is possessed by a Daemon of Khorne. The other is a gift from Khorne Himself that takes the form of a precision or possibly ranged weapon. You seem to dismiss what GW creates at least as much as I do in this regard.

I would also like to take this time to try to encapsulate what I feel is the argument here so that we can better understand each other. I feel as if your argument is: Khorne only favors Frothing Melee Berzerkers. I feel as if my argument is: Khorne is more diverse than just Frothing Melee Berzerkers. What is your understanding of this debate?

Ascension to daemonhood is such an exception, that it must be studied case by case. But general rule is that no khorne has no psykers nor sorcerers.

Well since i am the only one in this discussion giving evidence we can come to the conclusion that khrone has nothing in particular against psykers. He may not like them(or whatever) but the proof is there. If you consider it canon or not is your problem not mine.

Chaos is chaos it cannot be defined. And all my arguments with evidence(including Dan Abnetts books) tell us that there are Khornite psykers are met with " not canon sources". So i will end this discussion for myself here and now and do not bother replying to me because i wont look at this thread anymore.

So... when you're trying to leave this thread, shall you require a stepladder to get down from that horse?

Cifer said:

Stepladder? I am thinking more parachute.

I suppose hiding on the blankets would work, to make the nasty people go away.

FvR

van Riebeeck said:

What if we just give nice people cookies instead? I think that would make folks happier.

But we can still be friends, can't we?

I think some of you just don't understand the idea of Khorne, the Blood God. It's a Barbarian/berserker old style close combat fighter. Beeing a Khornate minion isn't just about killing - in WH40K everybody kills everybody. It's about taking things in your own hands and spiiling enemy's blood over your armour, choping his head and literaly swiming in his blood and internals. It's not hiding behind the hill or under the bush and using hi tech invensions, or spels and killing hords of enemies, when they don't even know what hit them. Weaklings that don't have balls do that. Khorn is about gaining strenght and showing it by hacking thru the enemies personally - like in the medieval ages - Range weapons were for the peasants. Knights sometimes used bows - hunting for example, but not for war. In war time they took their swords and lances and charged.
Same Thing - Khornate armies use Artilery, large tanks - large cannons - but for destroing targets like other war machines, or city walls, so that infantry can play. Right tool for the right target. Khornate warior wouldn't use a sniper rifle to kill an enemy boss - he would take a chainaxe and do it with his own bare hands or die trying ( in both case khorne is happy). See the description of massacre that Kharn made to his fellow legionares. He sow them inferior cowards for hiding in shelters, rather than charging on the enemy despite lethal conditions on the outside ( CSM 4e codex as i remember)
They of course use ranged weapons. pistols for example, only pistols are generaly close combat weapons - and if someone is in range of a pistol it's in range for close combat generally If i would be a Khornate I wouldn't take a bolter with me into battle , it would only slow me down. In battle A khornate warior seeks fun - of fighting a deadly enemy and surviving against the odds. Or at least die trying.
Same thing is about using strategy by Khornate lords - some would say Khornate strategy is "forward and charge", and anything more advanced is heresy. well, no. Maybe it's ok for a standard berserker, but being a lord is slightly more complicated. It's about taking responsibility and ensuring, that your forces win ( achive goals). Yes, usualy the goal would be "kill them all", but "kill them all" requires preventing your enemy from retreating into a stronghold as a reaction for a frontal charge.

*dreams of minefields, razorwire, interlocking machine guns and corps level time on target artillery barrages*

Oooh, wait, this was WH40k, we are supposed to give melee troops a chance! Forget about all that. And do not compare the antics of Khorne's warriors with Japanese Banzai charges. It is absolutely not true that rushing forwards to get close as fast as possible is the best way to destroy a unit in no time! Really!

FvR

P.S. Sorry, I could not stop myself, I just had a suspension of disbelief assault. But I have to say it, where Khorne is the God of bloodshed and slaughter, his average champion would make a terrible commander. But then again, the dead of his foes or of his followers, as long as there is blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Throne of Khorne! Problem of course is that as soon as a slightly more refined commander tries to apply some tactics, he will have to face innumerable challenges from frothing berserkers. That is even worse then commissars ordering you to continue your attack when you know it is a silly thing to do.

Lord Ork said:

Of course we can!

So, where's my cookie?

But then again, the dead of his foes or of his followers, as long as there is blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Throne of Khorne!

But this is a huge problem. More men you lose, less bloodshed you can do in the next battle. So, your companions are a worthy sacrifice to Khorne. Yet, each men you lose, you lose capacity of kill. If your warband have 50 crazy, I mean, devotes followers, in few time you'll be 20, 5 or 2. In this moment, it's better to kill yourselves because you won't do much again.

There you have Kharn, glorified for transforming his powerful legion into a pesky warband.

He is bloody chaotic, that Khorne. In a strategy game, I would give any chaos unit an 'infighting attrition'. Even with the strongest leadership, you cannot prevent a chaos unit from suffering internal casualties through duels, excess, rot and intrigue. With a nice incremental increase as dedicated followers of the different gods are present, especially those who hate each other.

FvR

P.S. We do not have cookies, but will you take a fresh congratulatory skull?

If Kharn hadn't split the Legion someone else would have. The World Eaters were ready to break apart. They just needed one final push.

Either that or Khorne has a special place in his heart for Team Killers.

Noisy_Marine said:

Both actually. The trick is to remember Khorne is a chaos god and thus insane. He's a god forged from primal emotion, not cold reason. He's all about hot blooded charges, rage, fury, and overwhelming desire. Killing someone on your own side because you're angry with him or because you just want to hit something is fine with Khorne. He wants his blood, his skulls, his fury, his hate. Does that interfere with good generalship? Absolutely. Is every Khornate just like that? No, because they're human and not cast out of molds, but that's the being they try to please and emulate. So yes, absolutely blood and skulls instead of a morning coffee and if the victim is from your own side it's better than there being no blood and skulls at all.

There's a reason its Tzeentch who gets the Ruinous Powers to work together, not Khorne.

Anonymus said:

+1

Using the Blood Ravens as a source does, of course, raise the issue of whether THQ/Relic know:

1) what the hell half of the fluff is; and

2) whether they care about what the fluff says.

They've obviously just gone "Khorne likes blood, Blood Ravens has 'blood' in the name, ergo the Librarian, who is a psyker, can worship Khorne".

I don't know a lot about the Dawn of War saga, but what I have seen, chaos is centered on Khorne. They have something with this god. Maybe it's the easier or maybe it fits better on a wargame. So, the librarian falling to Khorne (I only played a pair of missions, but it was clear this men would be a bad guy), only half surprises me.

Anyway, if one day I see a tiger on the road, I wouldn't say that tigers travel on road.

PS- A skull would be fine to me, as long as it has some meat remaining.