Gillam Harrow said:

Dude, if you want to play a Khornite psyker - do it! Don't try to adhere to a fixed idea of a make believe universe just because. I personally prefer to stick close to "canon" because I like it that way. However, if I felt this detracted from my gaming experience I would drop the so called "canon" like a stone.

Sometimes it can be fun to make up some quasi-plausible logic as to why an improbable event takes place.

It has been stated in numerous sources that Khorne hates psykers and sorcerors and magic all together but here are a few interesting quirks.

In 5th edition Warhammer Fantasy Battles and in the versions before that, the only way to field a Bloodthirster on the tabletop was to have a Chaos Undivided Sorceror summon him. The reasoning was that the ritual that the Sorceror conducted weakened the Veil just enough so that a Bloodthirster could slip in.

Also in the newest Dawn of War 2 expansion, Retribution, Azariah Kyras the Chapter Master and Chief Librarian of the Blood Ravens forges a pact witht he Maledictus Daemon ( a servant of Khorne) and becomes a Daemon Prince as a reward for murdering an entire sector.

So there seems to be a bit of a leeway when it comes to Khorne and psykers... It's Chaos after all.

Sergeant Brother said:

Ok lets break this down... into its separate parts.

Khorne Berzerkers do not use a martial art. They fight all out. Power armour means they can charge across open ground. (Ive done so to deadly effect far too often to count). Berzerkers can fire weapons really well. They even are able to use plasma pistols without a hassle.

Khorne is rejecting guns. Khorne berzerkers are his favoured servants, they get neither heavy weapons or flamers. OK flamers is strange, BUT a heavy weapon that keeps you away from collecing blood and skulls isnt worth it. Shooting something from afar means less blood and less skulls.

Sorcery at its highest form means ivory towers. The master of sorcery is Tzeentch, his favoured servants reseach sorcery, yeah i repeat myself, in ivory towers.

Sorcery given to you by a daemon is hardly true sorcery. You are not its master, but it is only a tool given to you for a price. In the eyes of a CSM/Servant of the ruinous powers. Something you gained and have mastered is worth more than somethign given to you.

Boiled down:

If you wanna do it, do it. But dont come to a gaming store and jabber about it, cause it aint 40k as written by GW. Nobody prevents you form doing it, but there isnt a single case of Khorne Psyker by GW.

Basically yes it is an interesting concept, and if your group wants to exploit and research said project by way of doing such a character within a campaign of BC. Sure DO it!. Its interesting and that reason is all you need for an RPG.

Warmaster_Horus said:

Khorne favours killing directly, not manipulating someone else into doing the killing for you. Manulipation is more of a Tzeentch thing. And it is a common fan speculation that the Blood Ravens primarch is Magnus, who did fall to Tzeentch.

A Tzeentch daemon disguised as a Khorne daemon to mess with the Blood Ravens makes more sense in that case.

Voronesh said:

Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, just that it flows. I don't think Khorne would have a problem with the likes of heavy bolters sowing death a destruction to whole squads in seconds, Bezerkers are World Eaters, it was they that had the problem with heavy weapons, also that had the implants installed to increase aggresion. Khorne just wants a body count.

Khorne is also straightforward - he doesn't have time for all that psychic crap.

He also represents the aspect of honour - using warp powers isn't honourable, facing an opponent in single combat with a blade or a pistol is.

You'll never gaint he Blood Gods favor with psychic powers, doesn't mean you can't worship him if your a psyker/sorcerer, in fact an Undivided psyker or Sorcerer will most likley venerate the blood god, and you could probably particualr like his ideas and methods, so if you like killing people with your mind, you can technically call yourself a Khornite, granted Khorne won't be pleased, but as I said, as long as he is getting a body count he may let you live, if you don't annoy him by like, asking him for stuff.

Karmadef said:

As Millandson said, that isnt really the gladiotorial (honourable) style Khorne likes to project. That fits with any other chaos god but not Khorne. If it works as a duel, its Khorne.

if its no duel, its not Khorne. (I think as a rule of thumb that should work)

BTW being a psyker and venerating Khorne is a VERY, VERY thin edge. Khorne doesnt like Psykers at all. He pretty much hates them. The Collar of Khorne is his way of leveling the playing field. And it only protects you so you can rip more psykers to shreds.

Duel? I can't remember World Eaters "dueling" people, they butcher people, on mass for the glory of the blood god. If any god cares about duels it would be slaneesh as a duel's purpose is pride and proving you are the best. The rule of thumb, if you can kill people with it in a direct and brutal fashion then its ok with Khorne, as I said Khorne's about the body count, yes a heros head is better, but all are meat for the slaughter and skulls for the throne.

Karmadef said:

You shouldn't take the word " Duel " to literaly. It may not be a proper duel between nobles, but charging someone with an axe, is more of a duel, or a fair-fight, then shooting him/her with a sniper rifle or lascannon. That said, I don't think Khorne minds if you shoot someone, but he might consider it a greater act to chop of their head with a chain-axe.

To that, after a quick look through the Lexicanum (yes, I know, maybe not the best source of information, but I dont have the codex, sue me), I found an interesting tidbit about World Eaters combat doctrine:

Even before their fall to Chaos the World Eaters were known as a bloodthirsty Legion, and becoming the chosen Legion of Khorne did little to change this. In battle they disregard mortal peril to sate their bloodlust in close combat , often displaying a berserker rage that makes them invulnerable to wounds that would kill even a Space Marine.

The preferred method of assault for the World Eaters is a Drop Pod assault, followed by a charge into enemy lines. They have also been known to drop right into enemy formations. Unlike other Space Marines who use tactical attacks with squads, the World Eaters tend to throw themselves as a whole force in the middle of battle.

Seems like they do, in fact, prefer to chop people to pieces up close and personal. Still, the guiding point should be, as long as you kill, keep on doing what you're doing.

Cifer said:

If I recall correctly, the 'official' rivalries vary from game line to game line and from edition to edition. All the (big four) Chaos gods really balance out against one another.

Khorne vs Tzeentch: Direct vs Indirect, Anti-magic vs Magic

Khorne vs Slaanesh: Violence vs Sex, Crude vs Refined

Khorne vs Nurgle: Death vs Life

Tzeentch vs Slaanesh: Change vs Stasis (Perfection)

Tzeentch vs Nurgle: Hope vs Despair

Slaanesh vs Nurgle: Elitism vs Populism

Kasatka said:

Honestly, if I were going to graph the relationship of the chaos gods, I'd graph them on a 4-axis graph (think of a d4 with each point representing a chaos god and the exact center of the die as the place where all 4 axis meet).

If you were going to do a question/answer bit, I'd say your best bet would be to give out some multiple choice questions and score each answer that is in favor of a certain god +3 for said god and -1 for all 3 other gods, and each answer that is antithetical to a certain god -3 for said god and +1 for all 3 other gods.

Example Question: You encounter what appears to be an mass grave in which numerous, hideous ghouls are scavenging off the plague-dead.

Example Answer 1: Succumbing to despair, you sprint away in a blind panic. (Khorne -1, Tzeentch -1, Nurgle -1, Others +3)

Example Answer 2: You make a darkly funny quip (Nurgle +3, Others -1)

Example Answer 3: You immediately enter the pit and gather samples of the disease for study (+2 Tzeentch, +2 Nurgle, Others -2)

Example Answer 4: You delight in the slaughter of those still living (Khorne +3, Slaanesh +3, Nurgle -5, Others -1)

Here's my take on Khorne. Khorne is the god of bloodshed and warfare. Both the Berzerker and the god of Martial prowess.

Heavy bolters shed blood as good (some might argue better) as a chain axe can. Leaping into a horde of Orks and decapitating them with the swing of a greatsword is as much a sacrifice to Khorne as a perfect rapier thrust through the heart of an enemy. It is dedication to war and bloodshed that Khorne craves, nothing more. One can view Khorne as the Berzerker, as the Duelist, as the Seige Breaker, or even as the assassin. As long as Blood is Flowing.

Now, older editions have long held that Khorne despises Magic in all forms because he considers Magic (and thus psychic power) as a form of trickery that detracts from one's dedication to bloodshed. In many forms of magic, one must dedicate themselves to the study of magic to really make best use of the power. Look at the general idea of Mages of all forms. They tend to be wizened individuals who have their noses buried in books. Most Wizards are scholars, not warriors.

Psychic powers bring us to a bit of a grey area. In many ways psykers behave like wizards, needing to dedicate themselves to the study and control of their powers in order to fully utilize them...but in 40k we also have the Wyrds, those nascent psykers who may or may not know that they are using psychic powers. I think a Wyrd could dedicate themselves to Khorne, so long as his focus is not on increasing his psychic might, but rather his martial prowess.

If the wyrd learns, say...Warptime because he wishes to increase his psychic might by adding a martial aspect to himself, that is the sort I think Khorne would obliterate. Now...a Wyrd who focuses the blessing he's been gifted with on making his strikes clean, on making his enemies die faster, on making each attack a decapitation...Khorne would look favorably upon such an individual. He isn't dedicating his existence to learning Psychic powers, he's dedicating himself to making himself a more efficient killer. Sure, he may never be as favored by Khorne as a Berzerker without a lick of psychic power, but so long as he doesn't acknowledge that he is in fact using psychic powers, he should have less problems than, say, the Sorceror who spends all his time bent over tomes.

Well, no psykers of khorne but, it has been stated that khorne destroys any psykers who ask him for power. However, what if there was a psyker who developed his powers all on his/her own and dedicated every kill to khorne? I am pretty sure khorne would be cool with that because the psyker is not asking khorne for power and the psyker is giving him blood.

XiMao626 said:

Seriously how is a clean cut through the heart as bloody (gets the blood flowing) as a brutal chainaxe.

He is the god of blood and sits in a skull throne.

Decapitation is he way to go.

GW has done Khorne as the pure melee army for such a long time. Havocs in 4e codex are the first time khorne gets anything even resembling ranged. And then that codex is the worst of all we ever had (fluffwise).

The mark of Khorne gets you an extra melee attack. Never anything else.

Yupp get me my heavy bolter, i want to swing people to death.

Zeraga said:

Totally. Khorne is also some kind of "god of killing things on your own instead of trying to be the most wicked on the battlefield, and being a Big Man with Balls and whatever is needed to be tough and scary and sh*t". A psyker who uses that to kill and shed blood and who prays Khorne for kills and bloodshed shouldn't be incinerated. He does whatever he wants, as long as blood and skulls are available. Just don't bother asking Khorne for power. Power? Man, just do some push-ups!

I think Khorne does not appreciate sorcerors nor psykers. I haven't read many wh40k material, but I'll bet a Khorne psyker is to be seen.

Voronesh said:

To answer the first question, it's not a matter of quantity. It's a binary yes/no. Does a stab in the heart get blood flowing? Yes? There's your answer.

To answer the rest of your post...You're confusing Table Top mechanics with fluff.

And you seem to forget that 2nd ed Khorne Berzerker models came with bolters as standard.

Is it binary?

We dont know. But we have arguements for quantity. (as in can find)

Tzeentch makes an intrigue more complicated because he can. Definitely a case of quantity and not a binary situation. The other gods do not differ that much. Nurgle wants as many diseases as possible, not a slight rash on the back. If anyone plays Nurgle, he wont get away with a few pustules easily hidden away. Same way a Khornate wont get away with only making the enemy lose 2 ccs of blood.

2nd GW produces mainly fluff for TT rules. OFC i am mixing them up, since GW does that all the time. Land raiders only given to SM armies, create a fluff pice that says so.

2nd edition. Nice. Has been retconned. 3rd edition forward has no bolters for Khorne until the current dex. And then it makes no sense to do so. (As in the option already removes itself)

So. Any valid arguement for a Khornate sniper? Since i know that no codex fluff has anyone like that. And im pretty sure we have never seen a Khornate sniper in any other fluff either.

Honestly, if you want Khorne to be all about killing regardless of how, then by all means its your version of 40k, but it isnt 40k as given in the GW fluff, and im pretty sure of FFG fluff too.

From this discussion i can only see poeple who want Khorne to be more ranged/psyker/whatever. Which is fine. But you cant really show one arguement which would put canon/backing by GW behind your ideas.

I seem to remember in the original Realms of Chaos books that beastmen shamans could be dedicated to Khorne but chose not to use their magic as a mark of respect. In return they gained resistence to magic.

I think in practical terms Khorne permits sorcery where it will aid in direct bloodletting, so magic weaponry and deamonology (to summon bloodletters etc) is permitted but hurling bolts of fire and telepathy is not.

Especially considering that such sorcery will no doubt involve blood sacrifices in any case.

Visitor Q said:

Then how come in the most recent edition of the Warriors of Chaos book for Warhammer Fantasy the daemonic gift Fury of the Blood God prevents you from wielding any magical items at all?

Magical weapons, sorcery, magic, psykers... hell even other daemons: Khorne hates them all. It's only through rends in the barrier between the Empyrean and reality that allow Khorne to manifest daemons. Sometimes these rends will be caused by excessive bloodshed on a battlefield, othertimes by ritual sacrifice (which in no way requires psykers), and sometimes just because the fabric of reality is weak in that area.

Any psyker who claims to be a follower of Khorne is lying. The only way a psyker could please Khorne is if they fell upon their own blade. Even the carnage they could cause through mass-pyschic attacks would be tainted by the fact it was a psyker behind such an act.

In short, no magic, no psykers, no sorcery, no magical items, no machinations, no plotting, no politicking, no honour, no fear and no surrender. Just raw, martiall prowess exemplified through maximum bloodshed and skull-taking.

Kasatka said:

Unless you do your own 40k.

Because its a cool idea to have blood magic or any stuff like that.

(But yeah GW has retconned any magic/ranged/tricky away from Khorne, so if you want to play 40k as given by GW/canon, its a big fat no to anything.)

Voronesh said:

Not true. Dawn of war 2 Retribution.

There are Psykers who both comes under the influence of khorne(they are still psykers remember?) and worship them, Blood Pact(Dan Abnett). So yes it is "canon"

Edit: And by saying they are still psykers i mean that they attract deamons no matter what.

in dawn of war 2: retribution there is a khornite psiker, the chief librarian of the blood ravens.