As mentioned before I see this aspect as a major part of the campaign narrative.

So how do you feel about trading chapter trappings? Since the growing together is supposed to happen gradually over time, I am inclined to not allow it at low ranks...

Is there any way to codify it in rules? I mean you want to restrict it and not have it happen all over the team. Your thoughts?

Alex

Tradng chapter trappings is a big no no. These are sacred items not disposable mass produced crud that we are used to now adays.

Thats my take on it anyway.

Hmmm.. I could allow that, and it might be a cool way to reinforce the team building experience. I agree that it shouldn't be allowed before the players reach a certain rank or maybe renown, but it should also be reinforced by roleplaying in game, but that goes without saying imo.

As for the game mechanics of the different trappings, I'm not so sure. A Dark Angel ceremonial blade or a Storm Warden Sacris Claymore would function the same in the hands of an Ultramarine or a Black Templar, but the blood pendant of the Blood Angels is something else. I'm not sure how I would run this, but I haven't thought about before now.

Visitor Q said:

For some maybe. I imagine the attitudes towards this is as varied as there are space marine chapters. I know it's a cliche, but it's your game and you may allow it or ban it if you want.

I'd agree, not at the beginning of a partnership. But as Marines grow accustomed to each others, and become "friends" (or what passes as "friends" with the Astartes), it would become possible.

But it sounds a bit like that discussion there has been about giving the combat knife to a human, in fact. It's a bit similar: an object that is nearly unique, although not that "powerful", but very meaningful. You don't give it away like that, for fun, jiggles and cohesion bonus. You give it to the other because he's done something awesome, something you deem so worthy you think your chapter would honor it. Therefore, the trapping. But giving a chapter trapping would be meaningless if the guy doesn't accept it, so trading it would be like the acknowledgement of the respect between tqo Marines.

Then again, YMMV on that point, I don't think canon or anything else would explain us what to think about that.

And about the effect...I'd say it's all about the Marines' faith. The blood pendant surely works that well because Blood Angels are absolutely convinced that it relates to Sanguinius' will to protect. If a Storm Warden becomes convinced of this, and role plays when they trade trappings, I wouldn't see any reason to no give him the bonus. If he trades just because he's approaching the 100 CP threshold...That's another situation already

I think I would allow it at higher Ranks, it would be a great way of expressing the growing bond of brotherhood between marines on the team. Not sure how I would handle special abilities related to the trappings however. Thanks for the inspiration though.

For some maybe. I imagine the attitudes towards this is as varied as there are space marine chapters. I know it's a cliche, but it's your game and you may allow it or ban it if you want.

Fair point.

To clarify, if two marines had fought side by side for years maybe even decades or centuries then trading such items would have good roleplaying potential, after all they would truly consider themselves brothers. But trading items just on the basis of utility just doesn't seem in character for marines.

I agree that trading for utility is a big no no, but it doesn't ave to take decades or centuries to earn the level of respect, or even brotherhood between soldiers that the exchange of chapter trappings could be carried out. Sometimes, circumstances that could warrant such a thing could be borne out of a single campaign,or even a single mission.

I'd like to point out that while they are coming from different chapters and carry differing gene-seed, all Astartes are (in theory) brothers and no other organization exemplifies this as much as the Deathwatch. If there is any place where such swapping could occur, it would be here. Swapping relics is of course unthinkable.

And of course there may be personal or chapter limitations.

Let me restate the problem I am having: even if we assume that it should be reserved for marines who have let's say climbed at least 3 ranks together (it can't be tied to rank but must be tied to the time together instead), let's assume you have an entire kill-team, maybe 6 marines, who all survived together to rank 4. You don't want this to turn into ebay. There must be additional restrictions in addition to rank so that among 6 marines 2 swaps are the absolute maximum, if not just 1.

So the bar needs to be set fairly high but not so high that it can never happen. The question is then if we can put those limits in rules mechanics or if it's a GM's discretion thingy.

Alex

I think that if the Ultramarine in our Kill Team were willing to trade his Adamantine Inlay trapping, for any of my crappy.....errr.....I mean 'treasured' Dark Angel trappings, it would greatly assist team bonding

While I'm cool with the trading of trappings, I would rule that they provide no actual benefit to the holder besides whoever it is that started with it. Those robes the DA wear don't actually have the knowledge on them.

What I would give is like a permanent +1 cohesion bonus per chapter trapping present that is not in use by its original owner. That is, at the start of the mission, take the total of traded chapter trappings, and just have the base increased by that amount. Now, I would also force RP to go with this (no you can't all just trade them). I would probably try to have this interact with deameanors in some way, perhaps allow this to occur if a marine from a different chapter displays an action similar to the deameanor of another chapter, thus earning that chapter members respect.

If a character performs a heroic last stand, I would be fine with it being passed on to a buddy after the encounter, and still provide the cohesion bonus long term.

If such brotherly exchange of sacred chapter trappings comes from RP i would allow players do do as they see fit. If they will start to treat their chapter trappings as standard utility equipment and exchange it because of muchkinism i would hit them with GM hammer of doom.

And if i remember right few such situations happend in my games. Ones that i remember as something epic

Black Templar Chaplain (full chapter chaplain not, RoB DW chaplain) after twenty years of serving within same KT with Dark Angels Librarian exchanged armour parts. But those two started from open hatred and ended as two legendary friends. At some point they exchanged their armours wrist protector parts, no matter how other Black Templars, Dark Angels and techmarines were bitching about it. They both died in same glorious last stand mission as both refused to left other to lonely death.

Other such situation was much less radical but still great. At first Get of Russ veteran (descendants from SW chapter) offered his woolftooth neckle to fellow veteran from Angels of Wrath (Blood Angels descendants) after he rescued his life. Many sessions later situation changed and SW was given blood angels blood pendant. And before their turn in DW ended as goodbye they exchanged their combat blades as mark of unending friendship.

See, that's what I'm talking about. I'd like to put it in game terms but can't think of anything that wouldn't lead to munchkin abuse though. Perhaps if one team member burnt a fate point for another or something like that. (And they have known each other for 3 ranks or so.)

Alex

Trade trappings? Good god, no. I see that as a little extreme. For starters, they're not really the Marine's to give away: They are their Chapter's. Same with personal wargear: It's not appropriate to loan or gift. A monk wouldn't hand over one of his monastery's relics or books to a friend, after all.

Other 'tat' that is picked up... fair enough. A Blood Angel gifting onother a pointing or something else that he'd crafted, a space wolf carving a fetish out of a genestealer's claw and gifting it, a Black Templar spending weeks engraving catachisms of hatred on a bolter magazine... that's all good, and cool. Far cooler than 'here, have my +3 item, and I'll have yours', and far more in keeping with the setting.

Boruta666's example of a situation where it could happen legitimately, and notice how extreme a situation it is, how long-serving the friendship was, and how the exchange had no munchkin mechanical effect...

Siranui said:

Your munchkin paranoia is showing itself again though.

Trappings are given to the Deathwatch on a permanent basis and the trading of trappings will be accepted, if not encouraged, by a fair number of officers, I suggest. The problem with crafted items is that it can easily come across as childish. "Here look, I made you a talisman out of Genestealer claw!" "Oh really? Gee, thanks." Stores it away without even half looking.

Nope, I like trading better, if done under limiting circumstances.

Alex

ak-73 said:

It's only paranoid if there's no munchkins!

I don't really see playing swapsies as a sign of trust and respect. That's what gifts are for. A pre-meditated trade would seem a little pale to me. You wouldn't show respect by handing over something valuable and then expecting anything in return.

I see talismans as pretty darned cool. Especially if there's some tiny attached bonus (+1 WS against genestealers!) there.

Siranui said:

So? They have no power whatsoever anyway. I think there's no need to be on special guard other than to watch over your campaign anyway. If something doesn't go right, whether due to quirky rules, power-gaming or sheer coincidence, you correct it and put the game back on track, right?

Siranui said:

Well, I guess it's a matter of proper staging then. As usual.

Alex

One thing I see mentioned here that I do disagree with is that the trapping does not "belong" to the marine. In my view, the chapter trapping is mainly a memento of their chapter, that they are permitted to keep while they serve in the Deathwatch. The actual "mechanical" aspect of a trapping is how the item is either:

a. A weapon

b. some reminder of "home" for the marine, increasing their effectiveness

In other words, if a marine of a different chapter picked up the trapping, it would not confer the mechanical bonus (except for weapons). Even a marine of the same chapter probably would not receive the bonus, as I imagine trappings are more personal mementos, and the mechanical aspect is more on a marine by marine basis (almost consider it as a floating bonus to further differentiate between members of the same chapter).

Anyway, I see nothing wrong with trading, its just that in doing so, both parties indeed lose "something" (in other words, except for weapons, the trappings I would rule do nothing for a different marine).

Perhaps, one idea, would be for the GM to determine what they actually do, and not inform the players of the mechanics. And hold on to the ability for it to do nothing. Once again, I think using deameanors in this would be a neat idea.

Btw:

"Question: Can a Battle-Brother bear more than one Chapter
Trapping?
Answer: No. While the GM may allow the player to swap
Chapter Trappings between Missions, the character is limited to
one Chapter Trapping at any given time due to the restrictions
placed on the Battle-Brothers by the Deathwatch."

Doesn't sound that personal if going by the errata.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Sure it is. That just means Storm Warden Brother X decides to carry the sacred amulet on a particular mission instead of his claymore. They both can be personal, but there's a limit of only one per mission.

Brand said:

Every brother has every chapter trapping (of his home chapter) at his disposal, trappings that are on permanent loan to the Deathwatch, similar to the relics. That's how I read it.

Alex

I'm personally not a fan of Marines switching trappings betwixt missions, despite the FAQ clarification. For me they are a reminder of their Chapter, and something that they've bought along with them, having been loaned it by their own Chapter. That's partly why I don't like the idea of it being given away.

Although if the trappings come from a big warehouse full of Chapter trappings kept on Erioch, and the marine switches them out between missions, it completely devalues using them as a gift. It's like giving someone a library book.

There's also a lot to be said about trappings only working for those of their 'proper' Chapter.

ak-73 said:

As an aside:

Games should be engineered so as to simply not have 'breaks' and quirky rules that are open to abuse in the first place. That way it prevents confrontation and problems at a later date.

Siranui said:

It's impossible. And from some point on its also not worth the effort anymore to make the system more water-tight. Simply being a good shepherd GM is the more enlightened approach.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Sure. Chapter Trappings are holy/sacred/revered by members of that Chapter. Anyone can use them of that Chapter, but that doesn't mean they aren't personal to those Chapter Battle-Brothers. No one own the Holy Grail, but if it was discovered one day there would be a lot of people who would hold it sacred.

In my game, Space marines are allowed to own certain possessions and chapter trappings are among them imo. So it's perfectly fine if they wish to gift it to another marine of a different chapter if the decision is backed up by strong roleplaying. If someone tries to swap it just for getting bonuses, I'll just tell them that the bonuses from the trappings comes from the meaning they hold for the marine, and trappings traded meaninglessly has no effect.