Hi,

I suppose this is the right place to present this question and look for some advice. I've taken over the GM chair of our group's Deathwatch game due to our previous GM needing to take an extended break from command. We're running a few short sessions as time permits to let me get my GM muscles back in shape, as it has been a few years since I've run any games of any type. My current Kill-Team roster is as follows:

Blood Angels Assault Marine (active)

Space Wolf Tac Marine (active)

Emperor's Justicars Librarian (active) (custom chapter made via RoB, sort of Texas Rangers in space, played by previous GM)

Black Templar Apothecary (currently inactive)

Dark Angels Devastator (currently inactive)

Salamanders Techmarine (currently inactive - my old PC)

So, my dilemma is this. My Assault Marine has his eyes set on the Chaplain advance class. (Chaplainhood? Chaplaincy?) He already has stars in his eyes, though, talking about how he is aiming for a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield as his primary armaments. Now, don't get me wrong, I understand his reasoning; it is a highly effective pairing. My concern comes from the nagging suspicion that this would seem out of character for a Chaplain. Would it be viewed as wasteful for a Chaplain to requisition a storm shield which provides only a minor benefit over his blessed Rosarius? What about replacing the scepter of his office, the Crozius, with a Thunder Hammer? Basically, are my rusty GM senses jumping at min-max shadows, or do I need to sit down and ask the player if Chaplain is really what he wants to aim for?

Any input or suggestions are appreciated, and with any luck, I'm making a mountain out of a molehill here.

Crozius is surely a must for a Chaplin, it is his staff of office. I could see a shield being used especially if it is a holy relic and has particularly fine inscriptions plastered all over it, but replacing the crozius! Surely some mistake.

I'd at least require that the player spent the xp for signature wargear hero for a crozius arcanum of sufficient size that it may use the rules for a thunderhammer (Eg requisition a thunderhammer). Than and a pretty epic quest to retrieve and purify it from the forces of chaos.

Something like that.

Pyrus said:

Is he aware that he gets a power weapon and a force field for free? Crozius and Rosarius are badge of office and to be used. If he wants to play a chaplain and those are not goof enough to him, hint at there being a Crozius relic available later - perhaps.

Also is he aware that Chaplain isn't a combat specialty but the chaplain advances are more spiritual advances?

In short: he is expected to use his Chaplain gear . Space Marine gear isn't just gear, it's to be honoured. That goes doubly for the trappings of a DW chaplain. Heck, even when in terminatour armour, they use their Crozius.

If he complains, point him to the chaplain options in the codex. And even named Chaplains use the Crozius as their main weapon.

Alex

Yeah I think it seems weird to not use the free chaplain gear, heck thats basically the main reason I would want to be a chaplain, free unoverloadable shield and power weapon. I would chat with him about it. having said that if a player wants to spend like 3000 xp to become a chaplain because its cool and then not make the most of the bonuses then I think thats a good thing, and rather the opposite of min-maxing. Which weapon rules are you using? optional or original? in optional the Thunder Hammer is rather OP and deserves a nerf anyway. and a rather common house rule is that Thunder Hammers are 2 handed if the marine is in power armour and 1 handed in terminator armour which is a very reasonable house rule in my opinion.

Yeah. It still completely defeats balance, but at least no one is going to dual wield Thunder Hammers in power armor.

As for not using Chaplain gear, it's not optimized from an XP point of view, but if you look at the fluff, as has been said, all chaplains use their Crozius Arcanum. It would be like an insult to the Emperor himself (Chaplains being what Marines have closest to priests) not to use it. So, really, the issue isn't only about min-maxing or not...

If he wants to be a Chaplain and role plays it, no offense, but really, the Thunder Hammer over Crozius Arcanum kinda defeats the idea of becoming a Chaplain. Chaplain are utterly mad charismatic (battle-)priests who lead the troops to battle by boosting their morale with their talks. They are not really into the Thunder Hammer - Storm Shield thing: they should be absolutely convinced that the Emperor protects, that their Rosarius will take the hits, and that the holy Machine Spirits will negate what could possibly slip through, should the Emperor's Will be turned somewhere else...So why bother with a Storm Shield? You're protected by the EMPRAH!!!

If he still wants to be a Chaplain, he should comply to the Chaplain tropes Which are totally cool, mind you. Give him bonuses for a shitload of non-totally-combat-oriented things, make other marines take a bow in front of his holy determination, make the players feel that a Chaplain is an awesome addition to the team, whether he kills things or not!

And don't forget Blood Angels have a twisted relationship with their Chaplains, as those are in charge of controlling the Black Rage. It's so cool I can't even imagine how cool it is to play one So disappointed my current BA character is a Techmarine. RoB wasn't out at that time, of course.

I will probably just need to talk to him about what he wants his character to be. Even if I do rule Thunder Hammers as 2h only in power armor, the next choice comes to a Power Fist. Normally this player is very good about sticking to the feel of 40k, but in this particular case I believe it may be an instance of 'power corrupts'. The situation is still a bit down the road at least, so I will have time to devise some way to defuse the situation. I appreciate the feedback.

Visitor Q said:

Yesh, Mish Moneypenny!

As a side-point: Do you allow marines in 'normal' power armour to use a TH one-handed? If so, I can totally see a player wanting this combination, as it's kind broken-good. Actually, the TH is already just broken, so it may be more of a munchkin choice than a RP one. I'd nerf the stats to make them more reasonable, and then see what he says!

Crozium and power fist would at least be a more acceptable trope to buy into. I'd personally be ok with a player doing that.

DW really should be clear on whether thunder hammers can be used one-handed by non-terminators (I would say no myself).

As for the Chaplain, Crozius and Rosarius should be mandatory. They're badges of office. The only exceptions being exceptional, master-crafted or relic versions of the above. Or if the Chaplain gets entombed in a Dreadnought. But Crozius + other one-handed melee weapon or storm shield? Sounds good to me. Chaplains are inspirational figures, but they also are there to kick ass, especially in melee.

I agree that thunder hammers should be two handed for power armoured marines from a balance and aesthetic perspective, but there are examples of power armoured marines dual wielding thunder hammers in the tt game (Death company for example).

Well I don't think the Death Company is still a good example with the latest Blood Angels codex...

And anyway they're not trope definers for normal marines.

They were just the first unit that came to my mind. In the previous space marine codex, thunder hammers are specifically described as one handed weapons.

It's perfectly fine to define them as two handed weapons in your games, but they are pretty well established as one handed weapons by canon.

Do as you wish, but here I'm willing to ignore canon on account of two things.

First I find it baffling that a Marine could wield it so easily.

Second, I'd agree with Artificer Armor allowing to one-hand wield THs if they give away one advantage (for example, only one PA History)

Third, in DW RPG specifically, it is utterly mad. Anyway, until the TH is errataed, I'll play with the old stats and a house ruled Concussive rule.

Remember tat the weight should matter little to a marine in power armour, so swinging it one handed for them is like swinging one of those foam hammers they hand out at sport events for us. But I agree with you. Mostly because I find the image of a marine swinging one two handed much cooler than swinging one one-handed.

Oh yeah I'm not troubled about their strength, it's really just that I don't find it natural.

In Terminator Armor, the weapons are more or less part of the armor (be it implemented in the RPG as is or not ^^ And if I remember, it is, sort of), so it's less striking when you wield it one handed (plus you need so to use the Storm Shield).

Why heck couldn't he requisition a thunder hammer? I sure as hell know that my Chaplain will be doing just that. While the Crozius is a badge of office, no where does it stat that this weapon MUST be used. Look at all the Chaplains who use Thunder Hammers in 40k table top. Just because a specific character is given signature wargear for being a specific class doesn't mean he's bound to use it at every available opporunity. The Crozius is still a badge that should be carried/worn with pride.

MexicanNinja said:

There are none. Per the latest vanilla codex, chaplains can't take thunder hammers.

Alex

I came across a a white dwarf from around when whfb 6th ed came out and it had a picture of a named salamanders chaplain with a thunder hammer in one hand and a CA in the other a couple of days ago.

None of my players have the renown for it yet, and our assault marine is in love with powerfists so I doubt this will be a problem for our group. In fact, most of the issues that have been raised on these boards have never been a problem in my group. I guess I'm lucky!

I think the problem is that the Crozius as it stands is just kind of... meh... It doesnt suck, but it should be one of the coolest weapons around just because of what it is. It doesnt have to be this huge damage weapon but it should feel unique and it doesn't. For instance some of the things it should have, either all of, or any combination of are.

1. Felling(1) or Blessed. Why it doesn't have one or both of these qualities I don't know. It's basically a holly icon.

2. All crozius are automatically of master craftsmanship (Bonuses already included in weapon profile, or not, it's up to you guys, lol)

I mean, make people want to ba Chaplin cor cryin-out-loud! lol!

Maybe even give the Skull helm fear(1). Don't know maybe too much, but probably not considering you can roll fear(1) for power armor history and there are Psy powers that give even higher rating than 1

As it stands now,

- Opponents can not take the defensive stance against an opponent armed with a Crozius...(Makes jerking motion with hand) Yeah... Cause that happens all the time, lol!

-Skull helm adds +10 to intimidae... yawns...

Plus I have to spend 3000 xp to buy the advance, wow, lol!

An option: you could consider encouraging him to stick with the Crozius Arcanum by allowing him to take the Master of Blades deed (or is it a distinction? Can't remember...) for Crozius/Thunder Hammer. He still has the cheese of a Thunder Hammer, but keeps the fluff of having the Crozius.

You know I have to say I am a little disappointed with the Chaplin in general... they don't suck by any means but i would like to have seen a little more in the advance than what they got, especially for 3000xp, just a little more to make them more interesting... a splash more flavor, and not just mindless comba stuff either. Reall make me want to play one... Ya know?

Here's a couple of things I would like to have seen in the advance. Let me know what you guys think. Maybe some stuff is too powerfu, but having all or at least some of this stuff just feels like more of a chaplin.

1. Inquiry

-Inquiry +10

-Inquiry +20

2. Scrutiny

-Scrutiny + 10

-Scrutiny + 20

(A Chaplin without scrutiny ind inquiry... Really?)

3. Master Orator

4. Strong Minded

5. Mental fortress

6. Abhor the witch (Not all chaplins hate psykers, but certainly some do, and not just Black Templars)

7. Demon Slayer.

8. Armor of Contempt (It should be there for Chaplins)

I think adding all or at least some of these things in to the Chaplin advance really makes it more interesting without overpowering it, with perhaps the exception of Abhore the Witch. Agree, Disagree?

Oops, I forgot a couple, lol.

8. Exemplar of Honor. (If anyone should be able to restor cohesion it should be a Chaplin)

9. Duty unto Death (A Chaplin shrugging of crit effects, stun, fatigue because of his faith... Just awesome RP fluff, lol!)

That's all, thanks, ha ha!

Gaire said:

This, basically. There's an assault marine/chaplain who is doing that in my game too. (Not for Thunder Hammer, but definitely master of blades).

What?!?! A Chaplain without his Crozius Arcanum? That almost sounds... heretical. LOL.

In a way, most chaplains carry the Rosarius and CA as their badge of office (not to mention the skull helm and black armour). Even though that maybe stereotypical. Its not only an office symbol, it represents faith.

Fluff wise, even when pressed to a corner, Salamanders Chaplain Elysius chose to fight the Dark Eldar Helspereth with his broken CA (Firedrake). In Courage and Honour, Chaplain Clausel held it aloft and chanted prayers (those were more notable in recent fluff). In my two cents of knowledge of 40k, the chaplain shouldn't be without a CA.

No offense to anyone, but I felt a chaplain may choose to buy a TH but scrapping or exchanging the CA seems to be out of character.