I can see from the RtL rules that if a lieutenant ends movement on a space with the heroes, he may attack them. Likewise, if the heroes end movement in a space with a lieutenant, they may attack him. However, I could find nothing in the rules about attacking when starting in a shared space.

If the heroes start their turn in a city, and there is also a lieutenant at that city, can they attack him? If they can, do they get to do any training in the city after finishing the fight, or does it take up their whole game week. Likewise, if a lieutenant starts his activation in a city where the heroes are, can he attack them without moving, and if so, would he still be able to put down a siege token there during the same turn?

I'm almost positive that if they (either Heroes or Lts) choose to attack then they can not move afterwards.

nasost said:

I've asked this one before, and didnt get a satisfactory answer. It does need a clarification in a FAQ.

What I gathered, is that the players can choose "move" or "train" on any given turn. In order to end their move anywhere, they have to choose "move". So I believe no, you couldnt both train and attack. however you could visit and attack, since those are granted as part of a move action.

The OL I think gets the same restriction, that he can Move (and therefore end his move and attack) or he can siege. I would guess a sieging LT cannot attack, but then why would you want to... if you're sieging, and the heroes are coming to your space (presumably to break your siege) then you'd be better off either placing another token, or rolling for a siege, and let the heroes have to take their turn to attack you. You get the siege token placed this way, and you force the heroes to waste their turn.

Then again I'd guess, if the heroes moved into your space in the first place, with intent to attack, they'd have attacked that turn they moved in. Why would they have waited? They could do a visit (after ending their move but before attacking) so it's not like they'd need to stock up. Perhaps to squeeze in a train - arrive, end turn. OL sieges, heroes train. Next turn. OL sieges again, Heroes can train (again) or attack, or move out, or visit a shop, and then attack.

That's my take on how the timing works, but it's by no means official.

deleted - Poobaloos reply was more than sufficient.

It is official though, simply read page 10 carefully.

So you're saying the only way for the heroes or the lieutenant to attack is to do so as soon as they move into the same space as the other? If the other is already there when they start their turn, they can't attack?

nasost said:

No. As Poobaloo stated, the requirement for either to attack the other is that they be doing a Move Action and end the Move Action in the same location as the other. They can just do a Move Action without changing locations.

Further, since Visits and Lt Encounters both have the same trigger (Ending a Move Action), the hero party can choose to do Visits before or after the encounter.

But since Training requires a Train/Recuperate Action, a party can not Train then Encounter a Lt.

All from page 10.

The overlord may issue one order to each of his lieutenants per game week. Each order may be to either move or besiege a city.

If a lieutenant enters the party’s location he may (but does not have to) attack the party

When it is the party’s turn to act during the game week, the hero players collectively choose either the Move action or the Recuperate/Train action.

If the heroes end their movement in the same area as a lieutenant, they may (but do not have to) attack that lieutenant

Arguably the Lt actually has to move to the location from a different location, as the word 'enter' is used, but I think that that is just a case of poor writing and the wording does not conclusively rule out 'standing still' at a location as your 'Move' action.

I am afraid that you all are wrong. To be sure i will show you how the move is discibe in Descent:TRoL rulebook:

page 10 :" Move: When moving, a lieutenant moves its marker from its current location, along one trail (of any type), to a new location. He does not check for encounters. However, lieutenants cannot enter Legendary Areas or Secret Master Areas. If a lieutenant enters the party’s location he may (but does not have to) attack the party "

So, it is clear that the Ltd must move as his move action, not stand still, so untill Ltd have two point move he cant attack Heroes in the same location as he starts.

mysiek001 said:

Really? So the Heroes can attack the Lts without moving but the Lts can't do the same? If that actually is the case then everyone I've ever known playing Descent has been playing it wrong.

That does sort of stop (or at least slow) the problem of a LT repeatedly bashing a party at Tamalir... I was thinking it'd also stop repeated attacks when heroes escape an LT in the wilderness, but that'd only work if they didn't move (i.e. not exactly helpful for the heroes at all)

What is the problem with that simple text? If heroes wants to attack Ltd then they must finish their move on the same location as Ltd.

Descent TRoL rulebook:

"4. Party Actions
When it is the party’s turn to act during the game week, the hero players collectively choose either the Move action or the Recuperate/Train action.

Move Action
When moving, the party moves the hero party marker from its current location on the Terrinoth map, along one trail, to a new location. "

So the diferents between heroes and Ltd is that they can upgrade party with "Staff of the Wild" that alow them to move two trails so they can go out of location in one trail move and back in second. In that way they finishes their move on the same location as Ltd. If you in other way lets say you play wrong, as everyone u know too .

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you pointed that out.

No problem, thats whats that forum is for, to help in better understanding the rules, which are a little bit misty and even i get confused. On other hand i had the situation with ltd that didnt move and try to attack us so i wanted to show what i have found out in rulebook, no clarification is in faq for that too .

Due to rules Ltd can't attack heroes without movement ....

Can heroes attack him ? I don't know ;-) but ...

if yes ...there is no problem

if not they can use staff of traveling (i'm not sure that i remember corectly that name - staff that gives party 2 movement points on map) and left location with Ltd and in the same movement go back to him (checking encounters on their way)

The whole move action/movement issue is just worded badly (like so much else is) in the rules. So many contradictions that don't make sense, conflicting rulings from FFG themselves (some stuff in the FAQ contradict answers in the unofficial thread) and it just seems that FFG doesn't care anymore about clearing these various issues up.

I can't bring myself to believe FFG intended that attacks can't happen if both the party and a LT START their turns in the same location. Sheer madness. That is unfortunately what the RAW implies. I play that, in this case, both need to declare a move action- no train/recuperate for heroes and no seige for LTs- but they don't actually need to physically "move" their overland marker.

I give up on Descent RTL rules...without support from Kevin and FFG this bickering is pointless.

Has anyone actually recieved a response to any official rules questions submitted through the site since the "makeover"? I haven't heard of a single question being answered.....

The rule is clear and by mine opinion the intenstion was to prevent the situation that the OL in his first move use upgrade to move his Ltd to Tamalir and attack and attack and attack heroes all over again. The other meaning is that if Ltd isnt at city he is all the time on move he cant spend his turn on one place/dungeon, with the rumor for example. Maybe it is silly but rules ale clear at that point. House rules are for that kind of situation - you and your friends dont like it? change it, with all adds and odds. And for the last remark it is a good rule for players which want to go to town and learn skill and the Ltd is already there. Heroes get into and they cant be attack.

Oboewan said:

Nothing. I've sent in probably 4 or 5 questions since the makeover. I think the webform actually just sends it into a giant internet trash bin and no one ever sees it.

Part of this is a joke and part of it isn't but I'm almost at the point where we as a community should just elect 3 to 5 people from the message board to act as a "Rules Council" and we just take what they think is the ruling and call if official.

mysiek001 said:

I'm not entirely convinced. There is a small, but potentially important difference between the phrase 'move action/order' and the phrase 'move/moving'. The way it is worded on page 10 is that 'when moving, the heroes move...' (well duh!- the wording is to explain how they move the marker on the map though, so its not an unnecessary repetition) as opposed to 'when doing a move action, the heroes must move...'

Not moving during a move action is not mentioned, either to rule out or to specifically allow. Actually moving during a move action is not clearly made made mandatory as the wording is purely descriptive and does not at any stage include any mandatory-type language.

Unfortunately the wording throughout is inconsistent. Move Action is sometimes capitalised, which would support this minor difference, and sometimes not. The Lt situation wording is even less consistent.

This is a very slim thing to go on though and I probably have to agree with you. Mostly convinced, but not entirely.

The really weird thing about such a super-strict reading of the RAW is that is means unless the party has the speed-staff, they cannot attack Lts (unless the Lts let them, or stand still to beseige a city). Since the Lts go first, they can simply avoid moving next to the party. Then, when the party moves next to them, the following turn they move on top of the party. Each turn, as the party moves away, the following turn the Lt moves back on top of them. The party cannot attack a Lt that tags them unless they have the staff of the wild? Thats just so wrong...

It also means that an OL who forgets to move a non-seiging Lt has cheated and thus forfeits...

nice discusion i must say, but the ltd can attack the heroes only once. Why? if heroes win ltd is killed, if he flees, well he is back to Avantar's start location. But if Ltd wins heroes back to Thamalir. So they are save, why? they can move everywhere , even on the Ltd location so Ltd cant attack then on his turn due to order move or siege he must do . Thats all happens because in move action Ltd must move . What you say for that .

If the heroes flee, they stay where they are on the overworld map, so this conflict is completely feasible.

Thundercles said:

If heroes flee they are moved to Tamalir soo i dont know what you mean.

mysiek001 said:

Thundercles is correct

If they flee a dungeon they are moved to Tamalir. If they flee an encounter, they continue their week action.

"If at any point during the encounter there are no heroes on the
map, but at least one hero fled the encounter (as in “Hero
Death and Fleeing,” above), then the party escapes. The heroes
receive no loot, but continue their game week action."

I don't see the problem here.

The lieutenant moves first, as the overlord starts the overworld map turns. If the lieutenant moves into a space containing the heroes, I'd say it's to attack them at the end of his move. If he doesn't then it's a bit of a gamble just to reenforce a dungeon, i'd say at least. And then end his move.

Then it's the heroes turn, as the text saids "if they end their turn/movement in a space containing a lieutenant" they may attack him. So if the Lieutenant is in their/his space they can either move away, avoiding a fight, or end their turn and fight him. Hence they spend the entire day/turn finding him, and trying to take him out. And the staff of wind, only gives the heroes the option of moving an extra space, they don't have to move two spaces, it's a choice they make. "Should we move one or should move a bit further today, and see what it brings."

As for cities where a lieutenant is besieging it, I'd say that the heroes can't do anything in the city. The city is on lock down trying to repel invaders, so they have to fight the lieutenant to do anything there. So if you are an evil overlord and moved your lieutenant to a city to raze it, and maybe fight the heroes, then keep besieging it, if the heroes want to save the city they will attack you.

Maruk the Nomad said:

Think of it as the Heroes being able to use secret entrances to the city. Kevin Wilson and FFG have already indicated that the Heroes CAN "use the buildings under the 'Visit' circumstance" before or after they encounter a LT as they are both "End Movement Here" triggers.

The other thing is that there is no rule that allow to take move action and dont move. So if the Ltd want to attack heroes in besieged city he must, due to rule, take move action and he must move , he need one more Ltd beeing outside the city to take move action and end his movement on the same space as heroes. this maybe be stupid but thats the rule. One Ltd cant besiege city and attack heroes, i can say more there is on option that Ltd will stay in same space for next round unless he is sieging city.

I would still let the lieutenant keep sieging, and let the heroes attack. The outcome is the same, and the city is more important to the heroes then the lieutenant. So I can't see any trouble here, it is all up to the heroes... the nice thing about being evil, is that you don't have to stop what you started hehe.