cyberfunk said:

Believe me, cyberfunk...Rush is totally useless against VTHC deck and so is the Verena package in the CURRENT meta.

If you drop spider riders, I drop Skinks of Sotek...or use Jade Acolyte's puppets to block. You pull out Wight Lord? In a rush? It's not a rush, then.

The only rush that can be a bit competitive against control is a TOTAL rush version, with no skaven (just Moulder) and no removals: just units and boosts. That's the fastest version I've ever seen and it doesn't win against Empire (not difficult to play out nor to build an Orc Rush deck...pretty brainless ...that's not true for VTHC...If you lost against rush, you didn't play it correctly, pretty sure about it).

I'm not sayin' YOU'RE NOT a good player, listen: I just say that a deck has to be played by the creator or by someone who tested it for months like that guy did...The same deck in two different player's hands is a different deck.

DB.Cooper said:

Skinks and Jade Acolytes are certainly good cards in the in the matchup, but they don't make up for the fact that most everything else is doing very little. And even those cards are not game-breaking plays. Skinks are killing a Spider-Riders that has already put two damage on the capital. For 2. Acolytes can't do their thing on the first attack of the game (no way to play them and save one unless you're running Militia), and they make you spread your developments around in the first few turns (which makes Pilgrimage cost more). Plus, sometimes you just don't draw them. All of the cards in the rush deck are basically doing the same thing against Empire. Clan Moulder, Spider Rider, Squig Herder, Pump Wagon: often interchangable.

DB.Cooper said:

The Orc list above is pretty much as fast as it gets pre-Legends. Post-legends you are certainly running Warpstone Experiments (and I did indeed take out Wight Lords to make room for these, and swapped a few of the random Skaven around). I don't really see any way to make the list faster (pretty certain it doesn't involve taking out Greyseer and Clan Rats). Stuff like Waaagh! and Totem of Gork is really bad against VTHC. Not sure what other pumps you might be talking about...

I think I have a pretty good grasp on how to play the VTHC deck. I have used it (in various forms) to beat several other decks. I am aware that Jade Acolye can make defenders. I know how to float barrels. I know how to bounce units around in the right phase to blank them for a turn. It isn't rocket science.

I also disagree that rush is "brainless" to play, espeically against Empire. There is quite a bit of risk calculation you need to do.

Maybe I'll post some play logs of Empire v. Skaven and you guys can tell me what I'm doing wrong.

cyberfunk said:

Actually, guys, I trust you.

Sorry, I didn't meant to offend with the "brainless" keyword. Every single strategy has its own "enigmas" during play, but we have to admit that Empire is a lot more difficult. Just that....

Said that, despite of the fact I'm definitely curious and interested in EVERYONE's playtesting, I think logs can't solve anything actually: if you say that, it means that's true for you...if "we" say that, it means that it's true for us.

We both playtested and get the results we're talkin' about: we're discussin' about "logs" and writing them won't change anything from THIS point of view.

I guess it's just a matter of time: I STILL hope to see VTCH banned and Verena in the restricted...but I'm WITH YOU (everyone who says that) in sayin' that things will slowly change anyway.

Cheers

DB

I disagree on the logs.
If we have them, we can discuss about what went wrong and what is improvable.

cyberfunk said:

Ok, let's imagine you play the wight lord, and you destroy the unit on the quest.

The next turn there is another low cost unit ready to be played on it (a skink, an huntsman, a Grail Knight...) and mayble a free-accelerator like A Noble Quest, and so you should have another lord in hand... and so on... meanwhile the empire deck can improve his quest zone and also his kingdom, just enough to play units like Wilhelm (to save tokens, because it can move your units in your kingdom and the opponent can save tokens to move supports)

On 3rd or 4th turn you will have your kingdom full of creatures, but your battlefield will be empty, like your quest zone... and you will be about to finish cards in your hand.

Result: so many resources to play but nothing in your hand to be played... this is the end for a Rush deck.

A very common result against an Empire deck like VTHC.

On 3rd or the 4th turn the Empire will be developing his zones (quest mostly) and will move 1 or 2 units (maybe 3 if very lucky). Good rush will have plenty of units in the battlefield by then. So I say VTHC is not a problem for good rush. The problem is that empire have something better to stop it eg.: Chain Lightning and/or Celestial Wizard. I don't see people using Wight Lord since we have something cheaper and better - Blood Dragon Knight.

Sufficent to say that during last tournament chaos rush ended up 1st. Second deck was based on malekith, DE obviously. Third deck was Empire on VTHC (and the player is very good).

i must admit, it would be pretty nice for Lukas or some other person of interest to stop by and at least add THEIR insight into this card. not that what they post will become cannon but that there is an acknowledgment that the card is indeed destined for change. (other than the 2nd-hand namedrop from VitaminT).

as a side note: it's rather disturbing to hear rumors of card discussions coming from World Champions and Designers, when the rest of us are in the dark and left guessing. not that i "really" think that there's any insider-trading going on, but that alittle more open forum discussions about cards would put our hearts at ease. Magic:The Gathering and Legends of the 5 Rings each have "clubs or teams" that have this kind of exposure to card development far before the public and it garners alot of heated debate and animosity.

He was talking about this card when we all asked him at the LCG days at the FFG center. That is when he mentioned to all of us that were there that they had been considering making some kind of change.

TL

Vitamin T said:

VERY good to know! I left L5R because of that kinda bullsh_t. Magic had its moments as well but has pretty much stayed a solo game. I didn't think anything dirty was happening but there has been page after page about this topic and the usually interactive Devs are hush hush right now about this.

I agree that it would be nice to get some input from the designers. However (and I could be mistaken on this) I seem to recall that the FFG policy is for FFG staff to avoid posting on these forums.

Papa

**** yeah!

Thanks FFG, really.

Now it's time to insert Judgement in restricted and bring out Mining Tunnels.

BigV said:

y sell it its only tournement restricted u could still use it in ur play group or even house rule it to make it a neutral quest so any deck could use it

decado said:

I was about to propose a challenge on OCTGN to finally show no rush has any hope against a good VTHC deck, but the ban speaks clearly about it...

Now I can avoid nights awake playing intercontinental games!

Curator said:

When will you guys be happy? The banning of this card now just will lead to the moaning of another.

In other news...

Willing to sell my copies of Visit the Haunted City

I'm the OP here and I own any responsibility of what I say: the restriction of Verena IS NOT ANOTHER moan, is THE SAME. The thread's title is clear. That would have been the ULTIMATE move.

Anyway, there is enough stuff around to start building new decks and now, mabye, 4 factions out of 6 are surely playable.

No need to restict Verena. It's potentially/situationally powerful, but it can be recovered from. Especially now that VTHC is banned (no more moving buildings to a zone cleared of developments).

Papa

Though to be honest, I was finding some playtesting success against the VTHC decks with an HE/WE combo deck that focused on indirect damage based on developments. This was the only deck that could still function at all against the VTHC decks but it wasnt dominant. It always came down to whether i could get my cards out on the first three turns or not.

Professor Nomos said:

Oddly enough, this sort of idea came to mind for me as well last week. True Mage, Elven Ship, Tiranoc Outpost all are uncaring as to which zone they are in, they'll still do their thing from any zone, hitting normally. TM and ES having cost 3, VTHC needs plenty of tokens to move them actively.

On a sorta related note, Tyrion when combined with True Mage can be quite nasty, since TM deals IDD to each player. Spread your IDD to your units, it gets bounced to opposing units (in corresponding zones only), then opponent still has to face the IDD he has to deal.

Tyrion when combined with True Mage can be quite nasty

True mage is to slow, there is choice of cheap units in HE that deal damage to themselfs as an action.

Mouse_PL said:

How so? Say you get 5 resources turn 2, drop Tiranoc Outpost, then True Mage, slap down development, 2 IDD to all. Next turn drop another Tiranoc (or two if lucky), another development, that's 5IDD, then 6 and so on with just one TM. Maybe you played Elven Ship on turn 1, you're also doing 5IDD at the start of your turn just on your opponent, nothing stopping you from adding more of them either. How quickly is VTHC getting those tokens and more importantly, burning your zones?

True mage is nice and part of the engine but you have to consider developments as a whole theme unto itself.

Then you can go with cards like mining tunnels, LOM, Wake the mountain, Master of the Earth, Surprise assault, boar charge etc. The real key is to have a flexible enough strategy to be able to use IDD to pile so much damage onto them that it just gets sick. hell Reap what you sow gets super sick in this deck.

painnen said:

very very impressed with Lucas and his team's choices on this card. not only to ban it but WHEN they banned it. didn't have any intention of going to Gencon, now I think it's a real possibility. thanks!

Curator said:

When will you guys be happy? The banning of this card now just will lead to the moaning of another.

We are extremely happy! But i mean that this game will be VERY balanced with this two other adjustement on restricted.

For now it's really ok that way, no moaning. Since this faq, now i really trust and believe FFG, and i hope for the future, one step at time.

P.S.

Speaking of moaning,did you remember Bolt Throwers, Mining Tunnels, Reclaiming the Fallen and Warpstone Excavation? Well, at that time we "italians" (as you say) did not say a word. When we "moan" we do that for a reason. Think about that.

What about Sorcerer of Tzeentch, someone called it to be restricted or banned in the comments under the news of this new FAQ. SoT next in the bitching line ?