The errata will change nothing, the only solution at the moment is banning the card. I'ts awful i know, but it's the only way right now.
Formal Petition: Ban "Visit The Haunted City" - Restrict "Verena"
Titan said:
grille said:
I think so too. Last weekend I played some games against a Visit deck with Philos and it isn't so annoying as it was before. I played a Kairos deck. Sorcerer of Tzeentch, Bloodletter, Warhounds, Braying Gor, Burn it Down, Plague Bomb, Light of Moorslieb and of course Kairos were the more noticible cards why it went so good.
The abililties from Sorcerer and Bloodletter aren't that much affected by moving and empire still has to use units for using Visit. Plague Bomb, Bloodletter and Warhounds combined make it hard to have even a single unit on the board. 1 or 2 Sorcerer with 2 or more Tokens on it basically lock the game down. Even if the unit is protected by Iron Discipline or Church of Sigmar there was a way. Church of Sigmar can be removed with Burn it Down (in best case) or strengthening kingdom for paying the cost. You have to get those resources anyway if you want to play Kairos later. Iron Discipline seems like another counter but mostly it only delays the obvious for 1 turn. You can afford to "pass" a turn and go for control because the damage output from the empire player is some kind of predictable.
That were the first matches with the legends and I still need to get used to the new cards but it's starting to happen something. Also note that Offering to Hekarti will be direct successor of Visit. I also think that a limit to only use the action while developing a cards would be good enough.
While I still think that something needs to be done about VTCH, I have to agree with this. I believe that the Kairos Fateweaver/Sorcerer of Tzeentch/etc,etc archetype is the next "big thing" in terms of decks. Chaos has gotten a very strong push with the last few releases. If this deck finds a reliable way to get the sorcerer out there early on, a la Visit/Maps combo, it may not be stopped even by Visit decks because they won't be able to keep any units on the quest. And as pointed out, with all the unit damage options that chaos has, you may not even be able to keep units out there. It bears watching, I don't envy FFG on this decision.
Titan said:
grille said:
I think so too. Last weekend I played some games against a Visit deck with Philos and it isn't so annoying as it was before. I played a Kairos deck. Sorcerer of Tzeentch, Bloodletter, Warhounds, Braying Gor, Burn it Down, Plague Bomb, Light of Moorslieb and of course Kairos were the more noticible cards why it went so good.
The abililties from Sorcerer and Bloodletter aren't that much affected by moving and empire still has to use units for using Visit. Plague Bomb, Bloodletter and Warhounds combined make it hard to have even a single unit on the board. 1 or 2 Sorcerer with 2 or more Tokens on it basically lock the game down. Even if the unit is protected by Iron Discipline or Church of Sigmar there was a way. Church of Sigmar can be removed with Burn it Down (in best case) or strengthening kingdom for paying the cost. You have to get those resources anyway if you want to play Kairos later. Iron Discipline seems like another counter but mostly it only delays the obvious for 1 turn. You can afford to "pass" a turn and go for control because the damage output from the empire player is some kind of predictable.
That were the first matches with the legends and I still need to get used to the new cards but it's starting to happen something. Also note that Offering to Hekarti will be direct successor of Visit. I also think that a limit to only use the action while developing a cards would be good enough.
While I still think that something needs to be done about VTCH, I have to agree with this. I believe that the Kairos Fateweaver/Sorcerer of Tzeentch/etc,etc archetype is the next "big thing" in terms of decks. Chaos has gotten a very strong push with the last few releases. If this deck finds a reliable way to get the sorcerer out there early on, a la Visit/Maps combo, it may not be stopped even by Visit decks because they won't be able to keep any units on the quest. And as pointed out, with all the unit damage options that chaos has, you may not even be able to keep units out there. It bears watching, I don't envy FFG on this decision.
That's what will be with VTHC banned. 
Playtested using Legends and VTHC deck is still on top. It cannot even reach a serious amount of "resources".
Sorceror of Tzeentch is the real threat (maybe it's even too strong), I admit it. But in order to build up a "global" threat with chaos, you need money and you won't get them by Contested Villages in your battlefield zone.
Anyway, I do trust in Chaos and after the eventual ban, we'll get "at least" 4 playable archetypes: Empire Control (Verena, probably), Orc Reanimator, some Orc Rush and Chaos Control/Kairos.
And, discussing about erratas/bannings/restrictions, I'd really un-restrict mining tunnels combined to the Verena restriction: in this way you'll have a "difficult" but still playable Empire Control deck, you can explore new Empire ways and you'll get back Dwarf as the fourth playable faction.
With 4 strong factions, at least, we'll have a meta game.
I think DE/Skaven with the new hero and swordwind (?) will have a chance against any of the named 4, but I will have to test the percentage.
jogo said:
I think DE/Skaven with the new hero and swordwind (?) will have a chance against any of the named 4, but I will have to test the percentage.
Oh yes...I didn't put all other possible choices..With a nice errata-ing/banning/restriction we'll get back our wonderful game as a whole and maybe we'll see a (maybe not competitive, but) funny HE deck around too!
DE will get a nice boost from the next FAQ (they can un-restrict Soul Stealer in my opinion...There's not a single reason to have it in the restriction BEFORE Verena and friends ).
DB.Cooper said:
That's what will be with VTHC banned. Playtested using Legends and VTHC deck is still on top. It cannot even reach a serious amount of "resources".
Sorceror of Tzeentch is the real threat (maybe it's even too strong), I admit it. But in order to build up a "global" threat with chaos, you need money and you won't get them by Contested Villages in your battlefield zone.
lol people, just use Innovation, it is that simple. I don't understand all that "Banning VTHC story", just try to think not in most popular and obvious way. Chaos is really good against Empire (Kairos from Innovation it's mostly a game over), so Skavens are (early Hate, Sacrifice, Corsair, Experiments on Greyseer or Runner), and other well prepared rushes (like Ork rush + Bats+Grom). Just stop crying here in tons of posts, and start playing. I understand, that you in Italy tested a million games against VTHC, but I also saw your decks from the last year tournament in Castle Stahleck, where your 4 players played 4 identical in 100% Empire decks. Wow that was well tested. And then guys from Czech beat you with some very original, and not top rated decks. Hmm so maybe all you people (all that crying for ban), should not waste time on this thread, but try to figure something out????
cheers
The real question is.
"Why do topics like this matter?"
Curator said:
The real question is.
"Why do topics like this matter?"
good point and for those who want the card banned y not just ban it in ur play group god d*** its a game thats wat we would do but noone plays empire so it works out just ban it from ur friends and this game wasnt made foe competive tournements no offence to ffg but there a board game company not a card game company now stop complaining and just play really wat r we all 5 qq qq this game is op stop using it and get on with ur lives
loken14 said:
Curator said:
The real question is.
"Why do topics like this matter?"
good point and for those who want the card banned y not just ban it in ur play group god d*** its a game thats wat we would do but noone plays empire so it works out just ban it from ur friends and this game wasnt made foe competive tournements no offence to ffg but there a board game company not a card game company now stop complaining and just play really wat r we all 5 qq qq this game is op stop using it and get on with ur lives
curator and loken, just cus you guys fail at playing WHI that doesn't mean those who plays in competitive league (european and american guys who take place at tournaments and regionals) shouldn't pretend a more balanced game.
We don't get it since we DO take care of this game, that's as simple as true.
Kragg said:
curator and loken, just cus you guys fail at playing WHI that doesn't mean those who plays in competitive league (european and american guys who take place at tournaments and regionals) shouldn't pretend a more balanced game.
We don't get it since we DO take care of this game, that's as simple as true.
OR
You and I can sit down and actually challenge our brains and have fun doing so, playing a casual Dark Elf vs High Elf or Orcs vs Chaos etc. Using the card base provided thus far with the game. Then talk afterwards about the fun we had challenging ourselves to make decks that counter each others. And while we are in a good mood (despite who won and loss) we can play another round with an orc deck vs a goblin based deck or something.
See you are wrong in your assumption that I can't kick your butt up and down the borders of your country with your own deck. I know I could, but I wonder could you counter draft me using my own draft rules. Or could you even make a goblin deck that can win against an orc deck...
You come to my home and threaten my fun with meta gamer non-sense and trying to force the future of my fun to change...
Then you tell other fellow casuals that you take care of the game...
You really are no different than the Persians. You are so wrong in what you think.
Kragg said:
"We don't get it since we DO take care of this game, that's as simple as true."
yea bro and playin this game casual to have fun and not take it super serious proves i have one think u dont a life and in the words of a great man "why so serious son"
The simple proof that you both fail hardly at playing WHI is that you pretend to be CASUAL gamers and then come here makeing fun of those who take it way much serious than you. if you are playing it just for fun, why do you even post here? we , metagamers, do not need your useless advices.
@Curator, Kragg, loken14
Wow, passions rising high here. I hate to see this forum being used for these kinds of unconstructive talk though. I am a noob in this game and Kragg and Curator, you both have helped me many times through your valuable contributions to this forum with your advice and thoughts about this game. You are coming at this from different, and legitimate angles and it is a worthwhile discussion. But hey, we are all W:I gamers, so make peace, bros.
tako said:
@Curator, Kragg, loken14
Wow, passions rising high here. I hate to see this forum being used for these kinds of unconstructive talk though. I am a noob in this game and Kragg and Curator, you both have helped me many times through your valuable contributions to this forum with your advice and thoughts about this game. You are coming at this from different, and legitimate angles and it is a worthwhile discussion. But hey, we are all W:I gamers, so make peace, bros.
Totally agree, but sometimes trolls get what they want and Kragg just fell in the "trap". I won't. Kragg and Curator are good guys, I know it. But Curator trolls a bit more than anyone else and the little "post exchange" with the other guy was definitely out of topic and over the top.
I'll just specify something and ASK everyone around here to post its thoutghs in a constructive way.
I DON'T cry for a ban, I HAVE a decent life and I'm NOT a nationalist who thinks that our country is the best.
Our country sucks.
And I don't think our players are the best: I think that they play more than everyone else, both in a casual and in a competitive way.
I think that an experienced player (experience = study and activity) can find these hot-spots. And a single tournament will never count as an entire league from a statistic point of view.
Organized-competitive play keeps the game alive for many reasons: casual player can still play and have the SAME respect of the others, never said something different.
But HERE we're talkin' about how some cards impact competitive play: if you're not interested, don't post.
It's pretty clear that you don't KNOW the topic, as for the Stahleck example...It's pretty clear, Curator and friends, that you DON'T. This is not trollin', it's a fact...and my beloved mom taught me that noone should talk about something that he doesn't know.
But I don't wanna steal space any more to the big discussion that was takin' place.
Just a thing: there are players here (like Vitamin T) that never totally agreed with us...despite of it, he NEVER trolled against us and ALWAYS posted it's ideas in a constructive manner, even makin' everyone think about 'em.
Just try to do the same.
Maybe this thread won't change anything, but your very DEEP Sparta post won't change anything neither.
DB
DB.Cooper said:
tako said:
@Curator, Kragg, loken14
Wow, passions rising high here. I hate to see this forum being used for these kinds of unconstructive talk though. I am a noob in this game and Kragg and Curator, you both have helped me many times through your valuable contributions to this forum with your advice and thoughts about this game. You are coming at this from different, and legitimate angles and it is a worthwhile discussion. But hey, we are all W:I gamers, so make peace, bros.
Totally agree, but sometimes trolls get what they want and Kragg just fell in the "trap". I won't. Kragg and Curator are good guys, I know it. But Curator trolls a bit more than anyone else and the little "post exchange" with the other guy was definitely out of topic and over the top.
I'll just specify something and ASK everyone around here to post its thoutghs in a constructive way.
I DON'T cry for a ban, I HAVE a decent life and I'm NOT a nationalist who thinks that our country is the best.
Our country sucks.
And I don't think our players are the best: I think that they play more than everyone else, both in a casual and in a competitive way.
I think that an experienced player (experience = study and activity) can find these hot-spots. And a single tournament will never count as an entire league from a statistic point of view.
Organized-competitive play keeps the game alive for many reasons: casual player can still play and have the SAME respect of the others, never said something different.
But HERE we're talkin' about how some cards impact competitive play: if you're not interested, don't post.
It's pretty clear that you don't KNOW the topic, as for the Stahleck example...It's pretty clear, Curator and friends, that you DON'T. This is not trollin', it's a fact...and my beloved mom taught me that noone should talk about something that he doesn't know.
But I don't wanna steal space any more to the big discussion that was takin' place.
Just a thing: there are players here (like Vitamin T) that never totally agreed with us...despite of it, he NEVER trolled against us and ALWAYS posted it's ideas in a constructive manner, even makin' everyone think about 'em.
Just try to do the same.
Maybe this thread won't change anything, but your very DEEP Sparta post won't change anything neither.
DB
DB,
Haha, you get it!
DB.Cooper, I have some questions regarding empire and legends expansion. How far did you adjust your empire decks to fight against chaos? As I see it you don't have any tools against Sorcerer of Tzeentch, Warhounds, Bloodletter and Plague Bomb. Nearly every unit dies within 1 or 2 turns and you still need to place units onto the quest to get the moving effect but moving isn't gonna help that much in most of this cases (removal is mandatory as it also "steals" loyalty). Church of Sigmar is the primary Burn it Down target and sooner or later it's gonna removed and then there are only 3x Iron Discipline which only holds off the inevitable for 1 turn. If I see a Iron Discipline that protects the questing unit against Sorcerers action then it's likely that the opponent doesn't have another copy to prevent a Plague Bomb that wreaks havoc in the empire lines the following turn.
If you don't go for milling style then you still have to burn 2 zones and if chaos develops from turn 1 on you need more damage potential to win. My guess is that empire will more concentrate on the Verena package or not?
Another thing that bothers me is the missing Infiltrate tactic in a lot of empire decks I saw from you. It's nearly a auto include in every empirecontrol deck we play here, because it's unique ability helps against every deck. Especially in the mirror match (that you guys play a lot) where you can be sure to play against a deck that plays mostly into quest and depends on drawing the right cards I think it's one of the strongest cards empire has to offer. Gyrocopter for dwarfes is also a good card that helps against empire's moving effects.
Kragg said:
The simple proof that you both fail hardly at playing WHI is that you pretend to be CASUAL gamers and then come here makeing fun of those who take it way much serious than you. if you are playing it just for fun, why do you even post here? we , metagamers, do not need your useless advices.
@grille we have been studying most of the tattics you were talking about during our league, there are some groups that plays infiltrate and other stuff you mentioned, but they are just 1 group amond a whole country (actualy I was one of the guys playing infiltrate xD). we do also agree that since legends coming out, things gonna change a lil, but we can't test that much yet since our country publisher had a delay with the 4th BP and legends..... as soon as legends gonna hit also italians stores, I promise you we'll continue back our testing and find out the impact with the new chaos card pool.
@curator **** or gfto casual player.
Jump back in topic, guys! Love you all! PEACE!
Chaos will be an Issue. A COOL issue against empire.
Sorceror and Plague are...a plague. I can see it with some troubles until a FAQ won't get rid of VTHC (maybe by a strong errata), because Chaos needs "time" and effort...Until things won't change about it, playin' three different 2 cost-cards will be more convenient than play a single 6 cost card, if you get what I mean.
But at that point, we'll see it around. A LOT and Empire will live harsh times.
I think empire will get back VERENA archetypes, but they'll be LESS effective than before, because of the current "High developing" playstyle and the fact that we'll see a general KZ-based meta, focused on pullin' out "fat" cards as soon as possible...We'll get more chances to recover from the "*****" and Karl franz will have to restyle its strategies...
I hope/think Empire will see some new funny playstyles...
As an example, I'm coming back in the "active" play with a "weird" Empire-Snipe deck which focuses around Skinks + Spawn + Celestial Wizard and gets back Pistoliers + Taal as the main finishing-combo...funny, maybe not T1, but effective...Empire will be playable as an "aggro-control" faction with the proper restriction/un-restrictions.
Something I think about the "control" side of the game...
Units control will be more important than ever: now every single deck will have lots of boost/resources and lots of players will re-start using innovation over Warpstone/Wilhlem/mining...That means that anti-resource buildings won't be that effective...It's better to have an anti-unit card than a support removal.
IMHO.
About Infiltrate: some lists actually played it...Maybe some players prefer to invest more on board control. than delays-counters...With the proper set-up, you'll basically play a Infiltrate per turn.
DB
Kragg said:
@curator **** or gfto casual player.
Peace? No no no! No peace. I think you guys need to enter the arena and fight each other with rubber clubs while I play the classic Star Trek 'duel' music!
Now... FIGHT! 
I definitely agree that Chaos is going to be a problem for VTHC. Warhounds are probably the worst card because they can come out from turn one and still leave a barrel to pay for Church of Sigmar. Sorcerers and Plague Bombs are obviously good, too. Kairos gives them an out when you go for the Kingdom flood approach. I think if Chaos builds for the VTHC matchup, it will be heavily favored, but a lot of cards that are going to be good in the VTHC matchup aren't going to be as good against the rest of the field.
For what it's worth, here's is our anti-VTHC list from *before* Legends. It pretty well dominated Haunted City, but folded to 47 cards plus Sorcerer of Tzeetnch.
Units: 32
3 Spider Riders
3 Clan Moulders
3 Lobber Crew
3 Snotling Pump Wagon
3 Clan Rats
2 Squig Herder
3 Plague Monk
3 Greyseer
3 Deathmaster
3 Rat Ogre
3 Wight Lord
Tactics:9
3 Innovation
3 We'z Bigga
3 Chittering Horde
Supports: 9
3 Contested Village
3 Choppa
3 Tribal Tattoo
The idea was to take away the "move supports to the battlefield" VTHC play by not relying on supports in Kingdom/Quest, and punish the "load up the Kingdom" play by running big guys (Wight Lords and Rat Ogres) and Chittering Horde. Haunted City just looks silly against guys like the Snotling Pump Wagon.
Anyway, Verena Empire definitely looks a lot better than Quest Empire to me, at present. Still probably worth running the quest, just not keying the entire deck around it.
Cyberfunk, I'm glad to hear that because it's the same thing we realized here though our deck approach (Chaos) is different from your list. Also agree that a Visit deck that comes with the full Verenapackage is way more fearsome than the standard moving control deck that only relies on the quest and how to get it out first.
The listed deck looks interesting but I wouldn't pass Troll Vomit when playing Orc.
cyberfunk said:
I definitely agree that Chaos is going to be a problem for VTHC. Warhounds are probably the worst card because they can come out from turn one and still leave a barrel to pay for Church of Sigmar. Sorcerers and Plague Bombs are obviously good, too. Kairos gives them an out when you go for the Kingdom flood approach. I think if Chaos builds for the VTHC matchup, it will be heavily favored, but a lot of cards that are going to be good in the VTHC matchup aren't going to be as good against the rest of the field.
For what it's worth, here's is our anti-VTHC list from *before* Legends. It pretty well dominated Haunted City, but folded to 47 cards plus Sorcerer of Tzeetnch.
Units: 32
3 Spider Riders
3 Clan Moulders
3 Lobber Crew
3 Snotling Pump Wagon
3 Clan Rats
2 Squig Herder
3 Plague Monk
3 Greyseer
3 Deathmaster
3 Rat Ogre
3 Wight Lord
Tactics:9
3 Innovation
3 We'z Bigga
3 Chittering Horde
Supports: 9
3 Contested Village
3 Choppa
3 Tribal Tattoo
The idea was to take away the "move supports to the battlefield" VTHC play by not relying on supports in Kingdom/Quest, and punish the "load up the Kingdom" play by running big guys (Wight Lords and Rat Ogres) and Chittering Horde. Haunted City just looks silly against guys like the Snotling Pump Wagon.
Anyway, Verena Empire definitely looks a lot better than Quest Empire to me, at present. Still probably worth running the quest, just not keying the entire deck around it.
...this deck looks very similar to mine (but i use mountain brigands, not plague monks, and i prefer having pillage in my deck instead of chittering horde).
Oh, by the way, this deck against Verena or VTHC (a good one, like in our last Regional) is totally ANNIHILATED 9 matches on 10! 
I just fail to see how Haunted City is doing anything at all against battlefield rush. You are already playing your guys to the worst zone possible.
I played the list from this very thread against Orc rush, and it just couldn't beat it. O/S Rush would play three cards to the battlefield on the first turn, and there was nowhere to put them with Haunted City. Put them in Quest and you're dead; leave them in the battlefield and you're dead; put them in Kingdom and it drops a Wight Lord or Deathmaster to clear a VTHC.
Verena Empire with the full nine card package can certainly beat it. Not sure about nine out of ten, but it's certainly a much better matchup for the Empire.