I think Papa has made some great points on alternative action, but I can't help but be sympathetic to DB's original point.

If we had more metas at the level of the Italian (and maybe Polish?) leagues then we could have a real debate about this but as it stands I am more inclined to agree with their calls for bans. If guys that play in tourneys every weekend can't get around it, then my opinion from my own little play group won't count for much.

No one wants to see banned cards for what it signals or represents: a banned card means that our game is broken and we don't like that. I dunno, **** happens sometimes and we should be open to the possibility of banning cards that make the game un-fun.

Shindulus said:

I agree that one day there may be a need for different restricted lists, although it seems that FFG is trying at all costs to prevent that. I also agree that Ancient Map isn't strong enough to make it into the list on it's own. But if Haunted City goes, one of it's main partners in crime has to go, too. I still think this is the worst option though, because it involves restricting other cards. As much as I'd dislike to see a ban, at least that is just one card. Restricting involves 2-3 of them.

One good thing that has come of all this is the fact we are talking about it and exploring different options. I'm very interested to see what FFG actually thinks of this and what they will come up with. As noted before, this is a tournament issue. For casual players like myself, yes, we see what it can do, we have seen it in action, but we can avoid the issue by simply using different decks and playing with this one more sparingly or just making it less powerful. You won't get that in a tournament.

The game is slightly getting boring, every tournament there are more blue decks based on VTHC than before. Soon there will be mono-race tournaments!

Well what you said happens, when more than 50% of players bringing an imperial VTHC deck is basicly the thing. But that just shows that many players are lazy and don`t bother to seek for other options, that are realy out there, and are just as effective.

I agree with jaszczurr many people here are overreacting. First of all if some most players use imperial decks some time will pass before they learn to use other decks, and play with new ways/cards. New realeses bring have brought many interesing cards, that are usefull against VHTC and resistant to its effect ( sor. of tzeench ?). I won`t be suprised if after 2-3 new packs balance is going to change in favour of chaos.

Mouse_PL said:

Ok, but...Do you know what playtest is? Playtest is NOT playin' Empire vs Empire all the time. If we're "reacting" is just because the tests speak clear and so are numbers. Everything has been tried: reanimator, Caos, dark elf mill, dark elf control, dwarves, empire aggro, empire KZ, orc rush, orc-caos control, dark-elf orc, empire-dwarves, high elf control-combo, high elf indirect damage...

And sorry, but if our guys managed to figure out and play a "devastating" deck like that, I don't think they have problems playin' other stuff, that's A LOT much easier to play than the average control deck.

Ok, but...Do you know what playtest is?

No, was born yesterday.

Everything has been tried

Your statment is much general, but that is what most people think. The truth is everytihng depends on specific player his skills, deck he is playing, skills of the opposing player, and also the deck he has. The seme refers for playtesting you mentioned before. No offence meant, but aren`t you whining a bit ?

I don't think they have problems playin' other stuff, that's A LOT much easier to play than the average control deck.

What is other stuff ? Help me understand this- you just said that if you played deck build around VTHC, you can play any other deck with pro skill ?

Jaszczurr said:

Efidm, in Milan there is a big team, all "professionist" players, smart playtesters.

They tested many time VTHC deck against the best Orc Rianimator they have and the result was someting like 60-65% VHTC and 35-40% Rianimator (2 on 3 for Empire). That's why theiy chose to bring Empire at Regional and 3 of them finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th, just after Sabba.

I'm an orc fan, I had a Rianimator deck and like other Rianimators.... no place in TOP8!

Link to said deck list and aforementioned "report" please.

DB.Cooper said:

Since you've ignored my last post. I will quote you in BOLD and say: "I'd like to see this list and do just what you ask."

Enviroments need enviromentally defining cards not enviromentally deforming cards.

VTHC is one of those cards.

Verena IMO has ways to recover, an empire deck with an early VTHC is nigh on unplayable (save play mistakes from the empire player)

As much as a hate the "ban hammer" I think FFG have to act swiftly and either create a credible answer to quests or hit this card with "the hammer".

Saying that Im sure the next 3-6 sets have been designed and had print runs so designing a card and putting it into the enviroment may take a little to long and its the same problem for reprinting an errata of the card.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=140&efcid=4&efidt=510287

this is the link of the discussion including decklist and report of our italian regional.

But instead of banning the card... just reprint it with alternate wording and cost! Make it cost 3 and have 4 loyalty! Then reprint it that way in the next print run! Problem solved. Yes, this might affect casual players because they aren't on the forums and wonder why they have one copy of the card and their friend has another. (But a little insert could explain things.) But tournament played would be completely unaffected because if the card was banned, they'd know about it. So if it was changed, they'd know about it!

colormage1 said:

Your missing the point because as easy as you say "just reprint" it isnt that easy, They have to book into the printers and each print run has a set space.

Even so if they did, it wouldnt be in the next 9 expansions or so as they're probably already packaged and ready to go so the card wouldn't hit play for 6 to 9 months which is to slow of a reaction to a card butchering the field right now.

Also, isn't it basicaly the same thing as banning the card, and then introducing one with suspiciously similar text and effects?

Personally I would just like to see the card changed so that it only affects Units. That would be a simple fix, and would bring the card back more in line with the other movement tech that Empire has.

Professor Nomos said:

Sorry, didn't meant to offend you

Look at the post Kragg has linked...That's our national report and you'll find all discussions about the deck, even some explenations about choices.
Just to be precise: this is NOT MY list...You'll find all the details on variations and basic lists with their creators in that thread.

Bye

DB

One other thing makes me wondering, why do I see so much names in this thread I never or rarely saw before in this forum?

Anyway, I totally agree with banning. The power level of the card in combination is insane (you can compare to the other quests).

I must agree with the general opinion. Either a banning or an errata is needed.

See, if they're going to errata it by making it unique, why not just change how much it costs? It'd seem like they both are different ways of solving the same problem. But... I don't know.

Again, I just think that they should take advantage of the unique abilities a LCG format gives them, and just fix the card entirely.

I don't think putting VTHC to restricted list would make any change. Imperium has so good economy, that it can afford throwing out Warpstone Excavations out of deck. Making it unique would be a good thing. Errata would be the best.

The worst thing in my opinion is that moving is made in separate action. If the moving would be connected with playing development ( Play development.. then move..) as a single acion, the whole deck would be much more vulnerable for hits. Right now it is enough to prevent any considerable attack.

jarzynek said:

Absolutely true. Empire will do just fine and find another way to control the table. Before FAQ 1.4 Dwarfs had a perfect opening in almost every game: Cannon Crew + Tomb + Innovation + Village + Tunnels + some Warpstones. That was boring. Now the Empire is leading with Map + Militia + VTHC + Forge + Village + Huntsmen + Rodrick + Grail Knight. We need to be able to beat a very strong Empire opening (especially Forge, Rodrick and Grail Knight in a quest zone). It starts to look good with new early unit removal for Chaos (Warhounds) and a perfect Warpstone Experiments. I'm pretty sure that balance will came once again in a "natural" way.

For Dwarfs decks FAQ 1.4 was a complete disaster. Same thing for Elves on Bolt. Yeah, FFG restricted/changed some good cards and take Dwarfs/Elves out of play for a time. That is what RL can do: no time to adapt, no good alternatives. Blah and you're weak. I'm afraid that after a month with "jay! no VHTC decks!" we will realize thaw the game had lost something again. I hope that a tournament scene will recover from that quest nightmare simply with new cards and new strategies. The process started already.

Zeruul said:

Maybe in this way could be better... the same effect Wilhelm has but on a quest.

VTHC will be still a strong card but a little less... could it be enough to balance the game?

Maybe a fix like this and VTHC in the restricted list (with Verena) could be a good solution!

I think so too. Last weekend I played some games against a Visit deck with Philos and it isn't so annoying as it was before. I played a Kairos deck. Sorcerer of Tzeentch, Bloodletter, Warhounds, Braying Gor, Burn it Down, Plague Bomb, Light of Moorslieb and of course Kairos were the more noticible cards why it went so good.

The abililties from Sorcerer and Bloodletter aren't that much affected by moving and empire still has to use units for using Visit. Plague Bomb, Bloodletter and Warhounds combined make it hard to have even a single unit on the board. 1 or 2 Sorcerer with 2 or more Tokens on it basically lock the game down. Even if the unit is protected by Iron Discipline or Church of Sigmar there was a way. Church of Sigmar can be removed with Burn it Down (in best case) or strengthening kingdom for paying the cost. You have to get those resources anyway if you want to play Kairos later. Iron Discipline seems like another counter but mostly it only delays the obvious for 1 turn. You can afford to "pass" a turn and go for control because the damage output from the empire player is some kind of predictable.

That were the first matches with the legends and I still need to get used to the new cards but it's starting to happen something. Also note that Offering to Hekarti will be direct successor of Visit. I also think that a limit to only use the action while developing a cards would be good enough.

How about this errata: after the player use visit the haunted city must sacrifies the questing unit?

deadeb said:

Hi!

I think nerfing a card is like banning it.

The only errata someone suggested is that you can use it ONLY on YOUR supports and units...Not weak at all (it can give you flexible choices and a lot of deck-building possibilities), but not as strong as it is right now.

Any other intervention is OR useless OR too similar to a ban (look at the Thrower ).

And I add: BAN/ERRATA it BEFORE WORLDS!!! By doing this, we'll be able to see at least 3 different decks in a consistant quantity.

grille said:

While I still think that something needs to be done about VTCH, I have to agree with this. I believe that the Kairos Fateweaver/Sorcerer of Tzeentch/etc,etc archetype is the next "big thing" in terms of decks. Chaos has gotten a very strong push with the last few releases. If this deck finds a reliable way to get the sorcerer out there early on, a la Visit/Maps combo, it may not be stopped even by Visit decks because they won't be able to keep any units on the quest. And as pointed out, with all the unit damage options that chaos has, you may not even be able to keep units out there. It bears watching, I don't envy FFG on this decision.