how are are they too get or are the only too be recruted by roleplay? becaus there are rules for them but no avalebility cost noted?

be intresting too know how hard my nobel/militany with criminal leanings capitan would have too try too get some elite forces under his command?

seeing as of right now plenty of cash too get lotsa ppl not good qwality (i have too rely on standerd grew or murder servitors with is fine but would have liked some inpresive back up on ground side missions)

small elite forces, yes please

They are mentioned in the errata.

The Staravar laser battery doesnt belong there after all hint

Keep in mind that (as per GW - if you want to stick to that) there's only, like, 10.000 Storm Troopers in the galaxy.

You can always substitute with Grenadiers, though, which are almost as good.

Lynata said:

Book and page where the stormtroopers are said that there are only 10k in the Galaxy,please.

thor2006 said:

People tend to forget these bits of canon or are just not aware of them because they originate from older sources. It's the same with the 30k SoB. For some reason it is assumed that Space Marines have to be the most rare troops in the universe just because they are the best ones.

Untrue Lynata, as established before; most people disregard absolute numbers like 10 000 Storm Troopers because it doesn't fit with the modern day fluff and it originated so many years ago, when it did fit. Storm Troopers are relatively easy to train/create compared to many other bodies. Hell, the Kasrkin are Storm troopers, and there are more then 10k of them from Cadia. At least that's the impression I've gained from reading through the GW fluff.

But I digress in the constant ***-for-tat bickering I've had with you before (respectful bickering, might add-I really do admire your scholarly expertise). The Errata updates the book and clarifies that the entry for Staravar is actually supposed to be Storm Troopers. You need Good Reputation (Military) in oder to acquire them, and you can only get one. My Impression is you'd only get a couple hundred at most.

Until modern day fluff actually contradicts them, I see no reason to disregard these facts, and so far I've seen nothing that would support a change. Did the Imperium contain a couple million planets less in 2E, or did they somehow only fight a fraction of the battles they do in 5th?
If the creators of the setting wanted to have a number this low for STs, then this may be regarded as impractical ("welcome to 40k") but not impossible . Plus, there's a reason why Grenadiers were introduced (which is a development in later fluff that was actually lending further weight to limited ST numbers rather than letting them appear less plausible). And why would GW mention the "single Regiment" fact in the newest Codex when they wanted to get rid of it?

I know that some players have chosen to disregard certain things in favor of some contradiction in their favorite Black Library novel or something in the RPG, but that doesn't change what has been written in the Codices and what future GW publications will contain. It's not GW's fault when an author like Goto doesn't do his research, and his multilasers certainly don't make GW fluff "untrue".

So, to avoid the "bickering", let us agree on that it comes down to the individual player and his own choice if he wants to stick to the setting as presented by GW, or prefer one of the interpretations that might differ in some details. I merely felt compelled to point out that there may be something to consider here, because some players do prefer to keep true to the studio material.

I sometimes wish this forum would have an IRC channel. I can't help but think that we'd all (well, most of us) get along a lot better if we could talk outside the constraints of some thread where such "side-discussions" are at risk of distracting from the original question. Sorry @ OP!

Thanks for keeping it civil, though. Even if it comes off as a bit half-hearted when people say they respect my supposed expertise when it is apparently worth nothing (given that I hold GW canon "sacrosanct").

Addendum: The Kasrkin are not part of the one Storm Trooper Regiment, they are a Cadian formation. Just like Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are not part of the one Munitorum Regiment either. It is entirely possible that there are even more Grenadier formations somewhat comparable to the Storm Troopers out there, but there's still only 10.000 of THE Storm Troopers. Apologies if my above comments were misleading.

Did that old background say why there were only 10,000 Stormies? It's just if they are so effective, why have so few? If the Imperium can support 1 million-odd Space Marines, surely it could train more Schola Stormtroopers? I can't say I'm familiar with the 2E fluff, so I apologize if these questions seem silly.

numb3rc said:

Sadly, no - though old and new fluff does leave hints for conclusions. For example, all Storm Troopers are recruited from the Schola, yet the Schola also supplies a lot of other Imperial agencies (Commissariat, Inquisition, Clergy, Assassinorum, Adeptus Arbites, Administratum, Navy, ...) with the vast majority of progena becoming simple scribes and clerks for the Adeptus Terra - so I'd say that the most likely cause would be a low number of suitable candidates, possibly a result of the combination of both a (relatively!) low influx of orphans as well as extremely high requirements for candidacy.
For comparison: 2E also gave explicit numbers for the Battle Sisters, and the Orders Militant numbered a mere ~30.000 warriors at peak times (noting that this was the highest number of novices the Scholae could supply even thousands of years after the Age of Apostasy).

In both cases, canon also noted that the numbers of the Storm Troopers as well as Battle Sisters fluctuated heavily due to combat losses, which may play a part in why these formations "stagnated" instead of showing a continuous growth over the millennia: The Storm Troopers just get sent into the most dangerous situations, and, missing the Astartes superhuman resilience, many of them don't make it back all the time.

Knowing the Imperium, it could of course also be some leftover ancient law stating that there shall be only 1 Storm Trooper Regiment, ever. Who knows, maybe the origins of the Storm Troopers lie with Terra itself, and it has its roots in the Great Crusade? This part is mere theory, though, and (unlike the above) not supported by anything in the fluff so far.

numb3rc said:

Not at all! Your curiosity speaks in your favour - not a great many number of players display an interest in such details, being content to know the superficial. Actually, I'm quite happy to be able to talk about this stuff. For me, this is just part of the hobby.

Here's the entire 2E description, by the way:

The Storm Troopers are the Imperial Guard's best fighting regiment. Unlike other regiments they are recruited from all across the Imperium, and they wear a distinctive uniform which is instantly recognisable by other Imperial Guard units. The regiment is unusually large, with as many as ten thousand men under arms at one time. However, it rarely fights in one place. Instead, individual companies or battalions of a thousand men at a time are sent to war zones to bolster the fighting strength of the Imperial Guard. In action they provide a core of ultra-trained, well-equipped squads that can be spread amongst the other Imperial Guard regiments as needed.

Storm Troopers are recruited from the orphan sons of Imperial officials from all over the galaxy. The famileis of men who die in the Emperor's service are looked after well by the missions of the Imperial Cult, the most famous of which are the Schola Progenium. Here, young orphans are schooled to love the Emperor. They are shown the many ways in which they can earn the Emperor's gratitude and thereby attain the highest honour in the Imperium. They gladly embrace a demanding and unremitting regime of prayer, study and physical training. Though hard the path is trod willingly, for all know that those who excel are marked for greatness.

Many of those who pass through the hands of the Schola Progenium are initiated into the Adeptus Terra. Some find their way into the Inquisition. The Ecclesiarchy welcomes the studious and the most zealous. For the natural warriors and leaders, the Imperial Guard offers a place amongst the staff officer corps or the Storm Troopers. Many Commissars found the unbreakable strength of their faith in the missionary orphanages.

Lynata said:

Thing is, the background in the very same book - the 1995 Codex: Imperial Guard - that the size of the Storm Trooper Regiment is stated casts doubt upon the matter.

The size of the Storm Trooper Regiment is said to be "unusually large, with as many as ten thousand men under arms at one time", which in turn are sent out in "companies or battalions of a thousand men at a time" (which basically means that there can never be more than ten distinct deployments of Storm Troopers in the entire Imperium... thousand-man deployments make much more sense if there are more Storm Troopers).

That may be fair enough, in isolation... but within that book's own context, it starts to fall apart. Near the beginning of the book, it details the recruitment process, whereby 10% of a world's total armed forces are taken to serve as the Imperial Guard, with all the men raised from a single world at a single time being considered a single regiment (this is disputed by later sources, which has a single muster producing several Regiments, but that's not the point I'm raising here - my point is a discrepancy within a single book's terminology), which "can consist of a few hundred men, or hundreds of thousands" depending on the world they're mustering from and how many soldiers "10% of [a world's] total armed forces" actually consists of.

Which poses an issue when both notions are regarded simultaneously. The Storm Trooper Regiment cannot be both "unusually large" and 10,000 men strong, because ten thousand men isn't a particularly large regiment (particularly not when many of the most famous regiments recruit either from fortress/militarised worlds where almost the entire population is the armed forces, or from Hive Worlds where 10% of the world's PDF will easily number in the hundreds of thousands, millions, or even more). Consequently, one or other part of the Storm Trooper background must be incorrect - either The Regiment is "unusually large", in which case it could contain millions or even tens of millions of men, or it's 10,000 strong, in which case it isn't "unusually large".

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I would suggest that, when the book says that both companies or battallions are sent out, you should not assume that only the latter applies just for the purpose of weakening the source. I'd deem it far more realistic that company-sized dispatch is the norm, though I will not claim that as fact.

As far as a very limited number of simultaneous battle theatres is concerned, however, I still agree with you. Yet I also still don't see the problem: We already know how the Escalation process is handled, with a threat first addressed by local forces, then drawing support from Sub-Sector, and so on. The Storm Trooper Regiment is part of the Munitorum's own "reserves", not bound to any Sector - which means they will only be dispatched when they are really needed (or when some Governor or Lord Commander Militant has a particularly good influence). And as much war as the galaxy may see, I am under impression that the really big battles (the ones that see Regiments moved in from other Sectors and Space Marine Chapters showing up - I'm talking Badab, Vraks, Armageddon here) are rare - compared to the "normal" stuff the IG has to put up with every single day. At least rare enough for 10.000 men to suffice. Or not, depending on how grimdark you want to see it.

And for the rest you have Grenadiers.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

No, it doesn't. When the majority of Imperial Guard Regiments consists of smaller units, then "unusually large" can be an entirely accurate description. And I think it is quite possible that the majority of Imperial settlements is not Hives or Forge Worlds but less populated planets supporting the former (Agri, Civilised) or merely existing (Feral, Feudal, Shrine). I think this is pretty much the norm in most sci-fi settings, anyways.

Yes, I admit, the numbers still sound somewhat wonky. But is that really your reason for discarding everything? What about the other "strange" stuff that's still in current canon? And how large would you want to make the Storm Trooper Regiment? Though the 5E 'dex does not give a headcount anymore, it remains to be only one. Do you think 100.000 STs would suit? Or can a Regiment be a million men strong?

Some things should simply be accepted. Just like the fact that Space Marines can only be men due to how the organs work - even if that's scientific idiocy and doesn't add up either, it's how it was written.

You may point it out as a flaw and analyze it with math, but you are not in charge of the setting. I have no problem with the facts as they were written. If you have, nobody is forcing you to stick to them in your games or writings. And I do hope you do not take this the wrong way. As I said, it's a subject of personal preferences.

Id basically argue, that there are only 10.000 Stormtroopers. Which are simply infiltration specialists.

And then you have 1000 billion grenadiers/kasrkin/commisarlike regiments which are simply souped IG.

Aye, I think that is how it is currently meant to work. The difference between Storm Troopers and Grenadiers/Kasrkin/etc isn't even that strong - the most important thing seems to be that the ST's are an independent formation not affiliated with any location. They are the stalwart sons of the Schola, their home is the Imperium as a whole.

from france

a big side note

"but you are not in charge of the setting....you to stick with them..."

Why such anger lynata? it doesn't look like you. no one here (sorry for the spelling it s a computer that i am unfamiliar with) was just debating rather than arguing with you.

for myself despite that i am my self a player since the second edition and have acces to the first one i completely forget it and in the french edition storl trooper are one and the same. it s a category rather than a regiment (damded keyboard sorry for the typo).

in fact you are victim of your success. in short time you get the respect of may of us for your schorlarly knowledge and the fact that hoard your document better than a dragon hoarding his gold.

that noone shows his nose in a topic is a sign that the topic interesting enough for a scholar like him and i am pretty sure that is because of your knowledge.

few people can match you respective skill after all he wrote parts of bfk and you can find a text like obiwan sherlock clouseau.

both of you have my deepest respect.

any one you know the joke about the ig never surrending? it 's because their enemies don't give them the time to do so

Yes, in retrospect, this "outburst" is somewhat embarassing. I should have worded it in a different way, or avoided the debate entirely. Should .

The origin of this anger is probably that for all the knowledge I supposedly have, it doesn't count. It's a nice and charming thing to say to a fellow forumite, but ultimately it gets dismissed because it doesn't fit into the perception of a rather large part of readers. I guess I am still upset because of how that bolter discussion went, and may carry this resentment over into other topics. Ultimately, everything I've read and collected over the years suddenly "doesn't count" around here, and that is frustrating. All the more frustrating because I often don't even see the reason why or feel misunderstood (not this time, mind you, N0-1_H3r3 does have a point, though I may still not agree). My own inability to nail others down on their argument's weak spot - which I feel is due to the nature of forum-based discussions and because I am often alone discussing my position with a dozen people simultaneously - almost feels like a curse and further tempts me to try and "do it better" some other time. It's just one of my flaws. At least I've so far succeeded on avoiding to post on certain topics, maybe I should just add this one to the list.

I very much respect N0-1_H3r3 as a writer, and perhaps there is even a bit of jealousy involved, but ultimately, our different stances regarding background continuity seem like a continuous point of contention between us. We even had this discussion already, though it took me some time to remember: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=70&efcid=3&efidt=448389&efpag=25#462972

In the end, for all the focus knowledge I may have collected, I just feel it isn't wanted, because it doesn't conform to what is currently considered cool or realistic, depending on the the topic and regardless of what the books say. I'm not entirely sure how to deal with this. I'll give it some thought.

And thanks for the joke - I did not know that one yet.

Your knowledge counts in a big way - one cannot know where one is without knowing where one came from (not a literal truth, thanks to GPS and the like, but a personal favourite none the less). That said, as you so elegantly put, it doesn't fit with the current perception of the majority of readers. The reason there are never absolute values anymore is that the fluff is so much wider and covers such a greater breadth then ever before, so that it's impossible to make absolutes that will not contradict something at some point. In this context and personal view of the reasoning behind it, I do disregard non-repeated absolutes from anything more then two editions old simply because GW fluff is supposed to be malleable and absolutes are not.

On your little rant, I am always happy to read your background and see your perspective. I do not disregard your points ever, because they were fact, and I'm happy to expand my hobbyist horizon. I discard the parts which I find unfitting, for the reasons our writer friend has stated as well as those I've just stated, and find myself with a piece of fluff that fits as well as it did the day it was written. Rather then pointing to the past and saying "So was it written, so shall it be done" I think you'd benefit from treating GW fluff as fluidly as GW does. As I said, if you remove the part about 10 000 STs, you find it is left slightly vague, but still gives a concise and useful piece of background that will never conflict with anything.

I always try for a balance of what things used to be and what they're becoming, and in this case it means discarding a small piece that no longer fits in order to make the whole more attractive to more people. Hopefully this tendency of mine won't detract from what I've seen as a respectful and friendly rivalry of sorts.

Lynata said:

Here's the issue: I believe that the background should exist as a starting point, a framework to be built upon, which inspires new ideas. It shouldn't be used as a restraint to prevent new ideas. I routinely dredge through all the background I can find, from any era, to see if there's something useful to my current projects. I read WAAAGH: The Orks cover to cover several times while working on the Ork Freebooter rules, and the idea in there of WAAAGHs being formed around Mekboyz inspired to build Gargants served as the inspiration behind my descriptions of the nascent WAAAGH! in Edge of the Abyss (which, as a WAAAGH! made of pirates, would be built around a particularly massive starship instead). My more recent work has revealed to me that, technically, half the species we take for granted as being part of the Tyranid race won't actually be encountered until the 2nd Tyrannic War (no, really, look it up - compare the "First Encountered" notes in Imperial Armour 4 with the maps of the worlds attacked by the first and second Tyrannic Wars). I do huge amounts of research for every project I do, but I don't work as if I'm beholden to remain absolutely true to the letter of the background; if something I've done doesn't work, then that's for the approvals process to pick out, and either I or the project lead will change it to fit what GW want it to be. Given that I have personal, first-hand experience of this, it means that I will assume that if something makes it into print, GW are fine with it being in print.

The concept of there only being an, IMO, rediculously tiny number of Storm Troopers, is a concept I find limiting, as it inherently limits the number of times and places a significant contingent of Storm Troopers could reasonably exist. I'd sooner see "The Regiment" (which exists purely as a distant administrative layer, overseen by the purely political post of Lord-Colonel of The Storm Trooper Regiment, who reports to the Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard) be hundreds of millions, even billions strong, with hundreds of thousands of battalions comprised of hundreds of companies each scattered far and wide across only a fraction of the numberless warzones in the galaxy... and even with so many, they aren't anywhere near enough.

This is why the tiny numbers of Storm Troopers and Sisters Militant annoys me, and why I'm personally inclined to ignore those numbers in favour of the current inclinations towards vagueness - I like those elements. I want to use those elements. But it's going to perpetually frustrate me if a little part of my brain keeps telling me that the Sisters of Battle force I want to include in my fiction or my game represents a small-but-significant part of the entire organisation. I want to see Storm Troopers turning up in my campaigns, and I enjoy using them as impromptu Military Police under the authority of Commissars... but putting a thousand Storm Troopers in a campaign is, for me, no different to trying to squeeze a hundred full Chapters of Space Marines into a single battle - it shouldn't be happening unless the situation is so utterly dire and incomprehensibly epic in scope as to be a once-in-a-hundred-lifetimes (and that's being generous) event.

Fiction and absolute numbers seldom get on well anyway - it was, for example, one of the reasons that Star Trek doesn't use any units of measurement with regards to computer capabilities that can be compared to contemporary ones (because real computing advances so quickly that they would quickly outstrip even the most ambitious ideas of the writers). It's a nightmare to try and comprehend interplanetary war and get something even close to a reasonable value - my current Deathwatch campaign takes place entirely on a world of my own devising (with the aid of two friends who aren't in the group to detail the world and oversee the Imperial and Tau forces), and I've found myself trying to make sense of a planet-wide war zone containing tens of millions of soldiers on each side. It's not a simple matter (hence delegating it out to willing friends).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

First. Really cool to share this with us. Thanks alot. (And i hope you dont mind the occasional discussions we had).

Without ever having checked the impressum of Fozren Reaches, you certainly havent written the war part of it .

Just a small point of critique. 1000 Stormtroopers isnt really alot, when you consider that teh Cadians have (probably) millions of Kasrkin lying around. Yes i know they arent stormtroopers, but they are practically as good at it.

And comparing 1000 Stormtroopers against 100.000 Space Marines.....I'll assume you did not mean those numbers literally. (considering there were 13 black crusades within 10.000 years they happen more or less every 10 genereations.) Sry, sry im nitpicking again.

Long story short, i totally agree with you. For me as a fan of tables and numbers, there is nothing more fun than designing a TO&E. I have done about 12 within as many years for my CSM; so not everything needs to be vague .

wow here i just asked how hard it was too get storm troopers in RT and there a hole mini fight about how rare there are or not

while there maybe a 10.000 man cap on storm troopers in canon, that make little sense with the million SM (who are ultra elite)

again canon wise your probly correct and hell maybe only the best Q strom troopers are realy storm troopers. who knows

10.000 ST and 30.000 battle sisters sound like a very small number if you count on how large the empire realy is? but oh well we all can athear too canon as much as we want ofcourse. or as little (brighthammer sounds like utter fun but wouldn`t know how too get ppl too play it (or run it)

and plz try not too take it personal when ppl dismise your input. ppl just have there own idears and don`t like it when others come around saying hey you cant do that

I do not believe anyone here doubts your vast knowledge of GW Canonical Lore. You do seem to have gathered about any source out there and know how to apply it. And it is a very good base to use in the discussion. I just hope you will not mind me bending and adding a bit here and there to get the canon in line with my interpretation of the facts.

Even if I do prefer following canon as much as possible to maintain internal coherency, that does not make it sacrosanct. And the rules as written for the Stormtrooper seem a perfect example of my opinion that most of this canon is written to support the squad/platoon/company level battles of tabletop games. One thing is certain, 10,000 is a very small number. That anyone agrees on. And even if they would number more, they would still form only a minute part of the Imperial Guard. My 'real life' knowledge of military history and military practices does start to bristle at the way they are employed though, that is sheer lunacy that can only be understood by the focus of the canon on tabletop battles: dividing them up in penny packets to support the rank and file. So that on the battlefield you might see a squad of them supporting a few platoons of guardsmen? As if the Soviets would use their Spetnatz to support their Rifle Regiments on regular fights. The lexicanum even provides the summum of ridicule "on some rare instances several squads of stormtroopers will gather". What the hell, several squads of a unit being gathered a rare instance? Are we talking about warfare here? So on their use, I fear I have to say canon be damned. To follow the canonical route would impact a bit too much on my suspension of disbelief.

On the other hand, my 'real life' logic fully supports the limited size of the Scholae Stormtrooper Regiment. Reading through their description my first thought was 'What a terrible waste of manpower'. It made me think off the dreadful Kindermord in Ypern, where the flower of Germanies schoolgoing youth was scattered in blood, gore and mud (read it up in Remarque). Both ghastly and from a military point foolish. All those young gymnasiasts were officer material, you don't waste those as Stormtroops, however good they are. The Scholae Stormtroopers are comparable to those young gymnasiasts, of whom the majority would make great officer material. As an Imperial recruiter (in a feudal galaxy), I would use as many of them as possible as future officers, both from the quality point of view (good human material to lead my troops) as from the social point of view (these sons of Junkers will be Junkers too). Only a small part would fall in the 'not officer material but still **** good soldier material' category. And to put these in a dedicated regiment, train and equip it to perfection and use it in high profile missions would make perfect sense. Both a good military tool and a great propaganda weapon, extolling as a bonus the virtue of the class to which you belong. To top this off, you declare that only this Regiment might be called Stormtroopers and use your propaganda machine to present it as the best unit in the Imperial Guard. Where in reality other regiments that can not be called stormtroopers are as good as your official stormtroopers and fullfil exactly the same function, a perfectly trained and well armed and armoured elite to your Imperial Guard.

So, for Rogue Trader, I would use the rules for Stormtroopers for elite forces, either 'ordinary' stormtroopers (such as Kasrkin) or 'official' Stormtroopers, where those last will indeed be very hard to find. On the other hand, a Rogue Trader expanding the Rule of the God-Emperor is exactly one of those propaganda treasure troves that can be used. Perfect for the 'Glory Boys' to get on their battlehonours. Nothing says honour as new conquests.

This is obviously quite a bit of bending, but the numbers, recruitement and unique nature of the Stormtrooper regiment still fit the canon. Most of the Scholae's youth become officers, only the fraction that is not good officer material but still good soldier material becomes Stormtrooper. Explains both their low number and their high profile. Just their canonical use gets scrubbered, as this was clearly written to support small battles and sell miniatures, not to form a logical background for a roleplaying game.

Friedrich van Riebeeck, Navigator Primus, Heart of the Void

hear hear well said