Hi all.

I have a few questions concerning my Tech-Priest player and ideas he has for his character. I could have posted it in the GM or Rules forum area, but thought it would be best placed here in the general area.
As sort of an introduction I have to say that this Tech-Priest character is really the crafting, repairing and even tinkering (and often also healing) type of Tech Priest and not so much the martial type (i.e. Secutor) one often hears of here in the forum. He is rank 5 and on the verge of becoming Mech-Deacon thereby taking the Magos Errant path and now has four attached Mechadendrites since a while (medicae, optical, utility, manipulator). I also have to mention that the Tech-Priest player is really the sort of (sometimes too…) creative type (being interior designer and all…).

Now he asked me a few questions regarding the possible upgrading of Mechadendrites or the adding of equipment to them:

1. How and whether attaching a Diggi-Wepaon (Needler) he found recently to his Medicae Mechadendrite is possible.
2. How and whether attaching a Diggi-Wepaon (Las) he found recently to his Optical Mechadendrite is possible.
3. How and whether attaching his Lascutter to his Utility Mechadendrite is possible.
4. Whether he can use his Manipulator Mechadendrite as a third leg.
5. Whether he can arm his Manipulator Mechadendrite with his Chain Knife.

My question now to you is what would you allow (and under what circumstances) and what not. What would you deem heretical or at the border to be considered least tech heresy by the AM?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Luthor Harkon said:

As an Adeptus Mechanicus layman myself, I don’t think these upgrades can be deemed heretical: they just seem to make that tech priest a walking arsenal (and perhaps would they allow him three or four attacks per turn?).

I’ll be very interested too in reading what the experts say.

Tech heresy is something quite hard to define. Most of the time, it's "you do the same thing as us BUT you're not with the AM, so you're heretek, *BLLAMMMMM*".

Now, for the questions:

1. How and whether attaching a Diggi-Wepaon (Needler) he found recently to his Medicae Mechadendrite is possible. <== I'd say yeah why not.
2. How and whether attaching a Diggi-Wepaon (Las) he found recently to his Optical Mechadendrite is possible.<== I'd say yeah why not.
3. How and whether attaching his Lascutter to his Utility Mechadendrite is possible.<== I'd say yeah, sure why not (Utility + Lascutter sounds totally legit).
4. Whether he can use his Manipulator Mechadendrite as a third leg. <== Don't really understand. A Manipulator Mechadendrite sounds more like a third arm to me?
5. Whether he can arm his Manipulator Mechadendrite with his Chain Knife. <== Why not, but has he enough precision with it to wield the Knife properly? I'd say no, but that's my own feeling.

So, now, for Tech-Heresy...Digi-Weapons are more or less heretek (Jokaero weapons if I'm not mistaken? So it's "more or less Xeno tech, more or less tolerated" to be precise), yet so useful that the really cool guys in the Imperium get to use them. I'd see all those upgrades as completely fitting the trope: the AM has rules about what you shouldn't do (they would have been much lighter if they were about what you can do, really: "stick to the STCs, worship the Machine Spirits and s*** the f*** up"), but nearly no one inside the AM cares to respect them...Tech-Heresy is when things go wrong, basically

PS: and really what he does here is just standard "tech optimization of space" for a Tech-Priest, so really if that 's heretic, all of the AM could as well be...Rule of fun and cool: your PC is seemingly having a lot of fun with that, just go with it, nothing sounds horrible.

Luthor Harkon said:

My answer would be yes, it would take some time and either trade (weaponsmith(or something similar)) or (trade Technomat) rolls to attach it, but to use it as a weapon he would need both the talents exotic weapon training (needler) and use weapon mechadendrite, as he is using a weapon. Same for las weapon. Which woould then follow the same rules for using a weapon Mechadendrite, which is a reaction for the attack so he would only ever get one shot from any arm a turn. Same for the lascutter.

If he is referring to a third leg as something other than for extra balance the response would be ewwwwww and why? If it is for extra balance then yes.

As for using a Manipulator Mechadendrite for wielding a Chain Knife, my answer would be a flat NO! It states the the Manipulator Mechadendrite is not for fine manipulation, it's a lifting arm. If you play the table-top of 40K think of it more as a servo-arm from the tech-marine or tech-priest engineseer models, and even if you don't play the table top, have a look at them at www.games-workshop.com .

Let's go through these questions one by one:

1. How and whether attaching a Diggi-Wepaon (Needler) he found recently to his Medicae Mechadendrite is possible.

You'll need to clarify the nature of the Digital Weapon in question. I've never seen a digi-weapon that doesn't come installed in some sort of housing. Rings are fairly common. So, it would be very easy for our Tech Priest to simply place this digital weapon on his medicae mechadendrite. It's certainly small enough. However, if he wants to actually fire the thing I would require far more work. He'd have to attach some sort of targeting array and connect a firing mechanism to the digital weapon. All that would get is a woefully inaccurate weapon as I doubt that medical mechadendrite will be capable of aiming the needler with any sort of accuracy.

2. How and whether attaching a Diggi-Wepaon (Las) he found recently to his Optical Mechadendrite is possible.

Now hold on: where is he getting all of these digital weapons? No matter; my previous answer still applies. It would be possible to attach but hard to aim and use properly. I feel the need to add that these weapons would act like normal weapons. They would not have the special attributes that a ballistic mechadendrite would have.

3. How and whether attaching his Lascutter to his Utility Mechadendrite is possible.

Sure, this seems somewhat reasonable. However, it might get in the way of the Utility Mechadendrite's operation.

4. Whether he can use his Manipulator Mechadendrite as a third leg.

To limp along or to support himself? Sure. To walk easily? No. A Manipulator Mechadendrite can grab things but it is not capable of fine manipulation.

5. Whether he can arm his Manipulator Mechadendrite with his Chain Knife.

Sure. Do you have the Inquisitor's Handbook? It has an option for "concealed weapon bionic." It allows you to hide a compact pistol or knife in a bionic.

To the Heresy question: a Tech Priest augmenting himself with human made weaponry is perfectly fine. Weapons of non-human manufacutre probably wouldn't. Digital weapons are not of human manufacture but are used so often by Imperial forces that I think they would be allowed as an exception.

Thanks for all the really helpful answers so far. What I had already told my player is, that attaching the Lascutter to the Utility M. is viable, but some other features have to be removed to make space and he has to learn Mechadendrite Use (Ballistic) to use it effectively and precisely. I also said upgrading the Medicae Mechadendrite with the Chain Knife is sort of possible but would lessen the Medicae bonus by 10.

@Stormast: My problem with the Diggi-Weapons is that in my opinion (and that is what I told the player) their workings are beyond comprehension for the Tech-Priest (or about any currently living human for that matter) as they are either Xeno or Archaeotech. So, improvising or tinkering with them without even knowing where they get their energy from (and so on) sounds hardly possible if at all.
In regard to the Mainpulator M. used as a leg, I told him he could not run with it, but if it is fastened to the ground it could stabilize him and keep him upright even if his legs are blown off…
None the less, you are absolutely right that if the player has a lot of fun with it, I should not be too restrictive.

@Valdek: In regard to the skills he would need as well as to how a Maipulator M. is used, I see it similar to you and already told him.

@numb3rc: 1.+2. Both Diggi-Weapons are rings that he took of a certain noble that was cut in two by a certain major villain of the first part of the Haarlock-Campaign. I really wonder whether he should be able to manipulate such Xeno/Archaeotech technology. Maybe I should give him a big negative modifier for his Trade (Armourer) skill check (more than three degrees of failure should break the Diggi-Weapons) even though he has Forbidden Lore (Archeotech).
3. Yup, you are right; he either has to remove some other features of the Utility M. or gets negative modifiers for its use.
4. To support himself. Sounds OK, doesn’t it?
5. Thanks for mentioning. I will take a look for it tonight.

OK, with this context I see the use of the Manipulator device. Sounds legit (and cool! "Legs blown off? Don't give a f***, I gots a servo-arm.", could really be a Courage Wolf demotivator ).

For Digi-Weapons, well they are complex, but the thing is, they've been used for quite a long time in the Imperium...So the Tech-Priest surely has no theoretical knowledge about them, but may have some practical knowledge of their functionment. So I would concur with you, a negative modifier to his roll, but let him do. It's jury-rigging, it's not going to be a pretty work, but it might work out efficiently as well.

Maybe begin with some Forbidden Lore (Archeotech) or (Xenotech) to see what he knows about Jokaero Digi-Weapons, and then modify the malus to the Trade roll...But hey, you're the GM, do as you wish

All in all, that sounds great Tech-Priests pimpin' up are cool. And generally no that OP.

Just so you know, Ascension has two Mechadendrites he'd be interested in, the Servo Arm and Plasma Cutter. The Servo Arm is particularly awesome since it comes with 65 Str and Unnatural Strength (x2), and the description of being able to lift a Rhino to repair a broken track.

As to your queries:

1) Depends. Does he want to build it in or simply affix it as is and trigger it at will using the Mechadendrite? If just affixing, it should be an Ordinary Trade (Armourer) check (Gained at rank 2 according to the errata).

2) More difficult then 1) because there are no manipulators on an Optical Mechadendrite the way there are on a Medicae. So yeah. In either case, actually building it in (as in dissembling the circuitry and such) would be completely impossible by fluff, but in this you should follow the rules of your Universe if that's what you prefer. In both cases targeting shouldn't be a big deal, the rings only have a range of 3m anyways.

3) If it were compact, sure. He'd need the talent for the Gun mechadendrite to use it as a weapon, but to use it as a lascutter, sure why not.

4) Not a leg, but so much more. Start falling? Latch onto a nearby rock. Getting sucked into a vortex of death? Latch onto anything in range with a steel and Adamantium claw.

5) This would require the Gun Mechadendrite talent as well, as if you look at it those allow for the use of a melee weapon, so it should more accurately be listed as Weapon Mechadendrite.

Yeah, supporting yourself with a manipulator mechadendrite sounds fine.

On a related note, I don't believe I've ever seen statistics for a "basic" mechadendrite. You see them all the time in the artwork. Just a metal tentacle with a small claw on the end. (Mini Doc Ock style) While not as useful as the others, I'd say they certainly have a place in the 40K setting. As for the questions, I'd give a "yes" to 1-3 for sure, although digital weapons could be a problem as they are technically xenos-tech. Even IF his limited understanding of the them is enough to incorporate them in, would it be tech heresy? Number 4 is okay as long as the manipulator can bend to the appropriate angle. Number 5 is okay, but I'm not sure the manipulator has adequate manual dexterity to weild it properly. So broad yesses accross the board.

I would probably allow them all but there would be some disadvantages. I'm also not sure that a lascutter and a chain knife are small enough to put on a mechadendrite with anything else. I'd rule they require the removal of something else of equivalent size or several smaller parts off the mechadendrite.

Each of them would take an extended period with multiple tests required maybe even some forbidden lore (archeotech research), it's not something you can just do in an afternoon.

The weapon attachements would fire like normal weapons, not like a ballistic mechadendrite, i.e. he could not fire them using a reaction action. This would be because they do not have the targeting arrays and the like that ballistic mechadendrites do. This may make his plan less useful but I feel it is necessary for ballistic mechadendrites and the machinator array from IH to have some advantage.

Thanks again all of you for the great input!

@Stormast: Yes, my Tech-Priest player really is a cool dude. He is investing a lot in Trade skills and other non-combat skills/talents as well as in non-combat equipment and stuff others tend to ignore. The same is true for my groups Psyker who invests a lot in investigative and Lore skills instead of maxing out his Bio-Lightning/Holocaust/Force Barrage power, but that is another story…
In regard to the Diggi-Weapons I will indeed begin with a Forbidden Lore (Archaeotech) test and modify any crafting (Trade (Armourer) most probably) as featured in the IH thereafter accordingly. More than one degree of failure for the crafting test will destroy the Diggi-Weapon and more than three degrees of failure will cause an explosion and damage the Mechadendrite beyond repair. Maybe I will also give him a slight negative modifier (i.e. -10) for targeting with it.

@BangBang Tequilla: Yes, I saw the Servo Arm and Plasma Cutter one, but decided I have to keep some gimmicks for later use, so that there is stuff the Tech-Priest is looking forward to becoming in the (far…) future.

1) Good question. I am not sure yet, but it would certainly be important to know and different to achieve. He already has Trade (Armourer) +10
2) Good point. I will mention it to him and will see how he wants to apply it.
3) I already thought whether he would also need Mechadendrite Use (Gun) even for using it in a non-combative way. It has no stats for use as weapon anyway (only the far more heavier version from the RH supplement Into the Storm).
4) Absolutely
5) Is this the case by RAW? I thought because the improvised weapon of the Medicae Mechadendrite (and the Manipulator M.) can be used without another skill, it should be possible without Mechadendrite Use (Gun) as well either.

@Alpha Chaos: I will tell him it would work better on a Medicae Mechadendrite replacing half of the attached sample tubes (or however they are called) and the chain scalpel thereby reducing the Medicae skill test bonus by 10.

@Weasel: I will let him attach it to the Utility Mechadendrite, but he has to sacrifice half of the injectors and the censer. Maybe I will reduce the Tech-use bonus by 10 as well. The crafting will take a few weeks for sure. I will think about letting him only use it as a Half Action and not a Reaction.

I think none of his suggestions are really ridiculous. In fact, I would probably allow every single one of his requests with the appropriate crafting rolls and time + resources spent.

The only consequence I would apply is that his added gear makes him look like a walking tank. Meaning he's more obviously a Secutor and less like a "regular" tech-priest. So basically his social abilities and stealth/subtlety options are going to take a hit, probably a -10 additional penalty in any such situations where it could be a factor.

Where I would be very careful are the actual game mechanics. Additional or multi-purpose mecha-dendrites would not grant additional attacks. The character might have 5 different ballistic mecha-dendrites (or other mecha-dendrites "upgunned") but he would only ever be able to fire with one of them for his Reaction based bonus attack. So long as the Tech-Priest mostly gets combat options rather then additional combat power I don't see it as a game-breaking issue. So long as its within the realm of "a more convenient backpack for my TP" it doesn't bother me.

If the TP tries to abuse such generosity by rigging everything (including his auto cannon with integrated 1000 round ammo hopper, complete with servo-assisted support arms) to himself to bypass load carrying capacity it might be necessary to take some steps. But so long as it stays within the realm of common sense I wouldn't stress out about it personally. Stating clearly that going overboard will lead to GM attention and GM attention will probably lead to nerfs might be a good way to head off such potential abuse, but the necessity of that depends on the player in question and their munchkin tendencies.

Bladehate said:

Well, I think he never intended to use the Las-cutter as a weapon and the other weapons are rather small so I do not really think it will make him look like a walking tank. In fact he was never interested in the Secutor alternative career path, but you certainly have a point. Instead of penalizing him with a further Fel-malus, I will have the main function of the respective Mechadendrite be restricted (as mentioned above).

You are absolutely right in regard to allowing the firing of only one weapon per Reaction (and maybe even turn). I am furthermore rather sure that the player also only wants to have more options and gimmicks than more ‘combat power’ by firing four weapons a round (after all, then he could have chosen the Secutor path in the first place).

They all fear too much GM attention for sure (as well as errata I am pulling out of nowhere)…especially the Assassin player.