Just a quick question:

How reasonable do you think it would be for a Rogue Trader to acquire Rhino variants that are traditionally used by the Space Marines? Some variants, such as the Razorback, seem simple and useful enough that their acquisition does not seem that unreasonable. However, their association with the Astartes might make acquisition impossible, as is the case with the weapons of the Angels of Death.

An actual Razorback? Not likely, unless you get it straight from the Space Marines, possibly as a token of friendship between Chapter and Dynasty.

However, you could probably just commission an equivalent that functions as a Razorback (etc) in all but name. Apart from the difference between Astartes and other quality gear being canonically much lower than the RPG would have you believe, the Adeptus Mechanicus - which has the plans and is in charge of producing such vehicles - is not above "circumventing" certain arrangements if you can cut them a good deal.

For example, they had no problem cheating the Sororitas out of the Inferno Cannon they then sold to the Munitorum despite having an exclusive contract with the Ecclesiarchy concerning the findings of the Fornoth-STC. For what it's worth, both organizations continually do this stuff to each other, but it goes to show that compacts with the AdMech can be rather "fluid". I would say that all it takes are some good connections, knowing the right Tech-Priests in the right places, and the understanding that such favors may be expected to be returned. Which does come with the potential of a neat plot hook.

numb3rc said:

numb3rc said:

By the space marines? Not impossible but near as **** difficult as it can be.The problem is not in the rarity of the vehicle but the aquisition. As I understand it, they have their own forges or contracts with the mechanicus to provide them and they would be preety exclusive I think - you can't rock up to any forge world and demand one to be made for you. You could acquire one on the hoof or a patched up one but its machine spirit would be a bit skittish of being consacrated in colours of than that of the aprent chapter. You must remember that they are created with space marines in mind and that includes the interior.

In a Shira Capurnia novel, the protagonist while travelling in a Soritas Rhino had to stand up because the the seats inside were too uncomfortable. Apparently the seats were made in such away that power armour could'nt slide off and made with fastenings to keep the Soritas in place, while the Adeptus Arbites Rhinos are cluttered with riot gear batons and verispex instruments. I imagine marines Rhinos are even more tailored to their superhuman frames and just wouldnt be suited to the avegae human.

Saying that this is RT, so if Lucien Gerrits's Grandfather can have himself interred in a Dreadnought so he could lead the dynasty for another 500 years, then Im pretty much your RT could get hold of a Razorback. A marine one? Difficult. One he recovered on the battlefield retrofitted and give a lick of paint and the ministrations of a patient Tech Priest. Quite reasonable.

Ha, no. I'm not asking about Space Marine gear proper. Getting actual Astartes gear would be near impossible, as it should be. All that effort would just serve to get you a vehicle with seats and controls designed for power armored Space Marines. Such things would be nearly useless and not worth the effort, as well as the heresy of using equipment meant for His Angels of Death.

However, I'm curious if something along the lines of the Razorback (Rhino with a heavy weapon mount) could be commissioned by a Rogue Trader, something that is not being taken for the Astartes. Rhinos designed for "mortals" are in Into the Storm , after all. The Arbites and Inquisitorial Stormtroopers use them and I've always considered Rhinos used by Rogue Traders to be similar in make.

What I'm mainly looking for are light armored vehicles. I've already drawn up some stats for a Siegfried Light Tank, a vehicle well within a Rogue Trader's means. I'm just wondering what other options are available.

Also, I do enjoy using Razorbacks on the tabletop and I'm wondering if there's a similar option for the Dynasty. Sure, the Chimera works as well but if you already have some Rhinos in the motor pool it makes sense if you could inquire into getting heavy weapon packages for them.

Razorbacks have been used in the past by people other then SM. While an 'actual' SM Rhino is not gonna happen, a Rhino or Razorback such as those used by the Inquisition or other Imperial forces is not impossible.

Rhinos are actually more numerous than Chimeras. If you count organizations that use them.

Arbites, SoB, etc.

So as long as you go to a Forgeworld (and not a Space Marine chapter), they can give you one for a few thrones. The Razorback is a more recent variant, so it would be more of a problem finding a Forgeworld producing that one, and not the actual aquisition.

How much your RT gets is only dependent on your diesng for 40k. If you go by standard aquisitions anything the IG uses is well within reach.

Chimeras (More guns, better glacis plate), Hellhounds (Burn heretic, BURN), Leman Russ tanks of most variants (Lets kill us some Orks).

Getting a Rhino, which is simply a differently armoured Chimera without guns, shouldnt really be a problem. The Razorback is also just a differently armoured Chimera with different guns, but a severely limited transport capacity.

In my opinion, the main reason the Astartes base many of their vehicles on the Rhino chassis (next to GW marketing of as many models as possible of course) is the light weight rather then the inherent quality of the design. If you compare the Rhino and the Chimera, you can spot directly we see an APC and an IFV, or for the US equivalents, a M113 and an M2 Bradley. For combat purposes, an IFV is far superior with better armour and firepower, but this comes at a price: weight. And that is a vital factor if you wish to give your airmobile infantry forces some basic mechanisation. To that basic factor, we can add that the APC will mostly be somewhat bulkier and roomier as it does not have to dedicate space to weapon systems and munition and you can fit your Power Armoured marines inside with far more ease, which means you will have to deploy far fewer to give your Astartes more then foot slogging speed. All this makes the Rhino a very handy basic vehicle, that offers a good hull for fire support and IFV variants. For heavy support, the Astartes trust on their few Land Raiders, but those are so heavy deploying them is far more difficult while their construction is far more demanding so they will always be in limited supply.

As such, a Rhino isn't that hard to get hold of, as it is a very common STC. A fire support variant might be slightly harder, but is not a very hard modification. If you don't get the space marine turret, you could slap on the Chimera turret (that is fully enclosed to boot). I guess the biggest problem might be convincing the Adeptus Mechanicus you wish to have an STC tinkered with a bit.

One thing Adeptus Astartes will have an advantage off is their 'electronics', so to say. In my view, the Imperium is capable of turning out massive amounts of relatively uncomplicated technology, but their ability to make high quality miniaturised electronics seems far more limited. In short, their ability to produce Imaging Infrared sights falls far short of their ability to build tanks. As such, their good stuff will go to the elite, their mediocre stuff to the Imperial Guard. This translates in Astartes Razorbacks having first class vision equipment, while a Leman Russ will have to do with a infrared searchlight. So, getting a 'monkey version' Razorback will be far easier then getting one with the Space Marine gubbinz.

Friedrich van Riebeeck, Navigator Primus, Heart of the Void

P.S. The term 'monkey version' is expressively meant as a comparison between the Imperium and the USSR. I do not in any way condone the inherent racism that was prevalent amongst the proletariat state.

P.P.S. I do endorse the inherent specieism that is prevalent in the Imperium. Foul Xenos, they make my blood boil in anger that they still dare to live amongst our stars!

I do think there is some room for lighter paramilitary vehicles within the Imperium. I've been arguing for years that there's a gap in the Imperial armoury for a Jeep analogue. This was to some extent addressed by the Tauros Assault vehicle:-

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Elysian_Drop_Troops/ELYSIAN_TAUROS_ASSAULT_VEHICLE.html

But I still think this isn't quite as functional as I would have liked. It only appears to be a 2 seater, for one thing. Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic miniature, and I like the writeup for it, but it's clear that this is a specialist, battery powered drop vehicle for drop regiments.

What is still needed is a "workhorse" light armoured/scout/utility vehicle analoagous to a Jeep, Land Rover or Humvee. A 4-6 seater capable of mounting a heavy weapon and also acting as a light transport. If GW ever got around to producing a half decent plastic miniature of such a model, it would sell like hot crack.

It makes sense for Rogue Traders to operate vehicles of this type rather than a large number of tracked vehicles, especially if they operate smaller ships like raiders or frigates. Rogue Traders are less likely to have access to the super-heavy drop ships used by the Guard, and so lighter vehicles will be very usefu to them.

The Siegfried Light tank is an interesting vehicle, and I think numb3rc is right on the money to consider it as an alternative to a lot of Marine/Guard vehicles with a better pedigree. It actually makes a lot of sense as a Rogue Trader vehicle. It'll be light, for one thing, but for another, it's basically an armoured civilian tracked tractor with an overcharged engine, so it'll also likely be cheap. I'd certainly be interested in seeing your vehicle stats for it, numb3rc!

van Riebeeck said:

Actually I think the whole Munitorium background is designed with the Soviet 'monkey model' system in mind. It was always amusing that T72 tanks in Soviet client states were initially often derided in the west because they seemed so crude. But the russians DID have high tech equipment, but just issued it to their own armies. The entire point was that though the west had the better tech, in a protracted war when their economy was shot their factories could still churn out thousands of 'monkey versions' on the front line while the west struggled to replace its high tech labour intensive versions.

Some of their ideas on incrementalism were quite good. Rather than design the unit from the ground up, units could be patched up and retrofitted when needed. For example during the cold war as it became clear that air defence would become paramount the US started to design anti aircraft platforms that took ten years to get into service. Russia on the other hand broke open mothballed stocks of sturdy transport vehicles from WWII and attached an anti aircraft platform on the back as a stop gap mesure while the experimental department would test out new technology (or often enough just steal the bleprints from the west)

This can be seen today quite easily. If the British army loses a high tech Challenger Tank, the minister of defence has a heart attack because he has to find x million to replace it, and it takes months to replace it. If russia loses one of its souped up T72 they shrug and get another one made, but perhaps a version where the turret has to be cranked around by hand. Either that or they got out one of their mothballed T62's and replaced the turret, because the technology was designed to be backwatd compatible.

In 40k the munitorium I think operates in a similar way. It doesnt go for high tech when equipping the Imperial guard. It makes sturdy equipment than can run on isotropic fuel rods or the crap of the crew if needed, and produced in vast numbers if needed. It can also commission High tech if they need but only if strictly needed. Theres an entire galaxy of foes and they may have to continue equipping humanity for anotherr 10,000 years.

The difference between the munitorium and the soviet model of course lies in the the composition of the vehicles. The Imperium and in particular the mechanicus is obessed with the 'purity of the blueprint' as it were, while the russians were concearned that the functioned was fufillled, aesthetics, market value and slick efficiency be damned. They had no shame in copying designs from the west (their aircraft were nortorious for this. When the Harrier jump jet came off the assembly line, the russians had one that looked almost exactly the same in six months) If the soviets ran 40K you would see Chimeras with Tau engines and Eldar starcannon, all cranked by hand and powered by ****, if it fufilled a tactical/operational gap.

Curiously when 40k came out in the late 1980's the STC was descibed in terms closer to the soviet model. Namely that colonists would produce weapons that they keyed into STC, which in turn generated from the resources on the planet and the threat they faced and. So you had vehicles that looked like farm machines but with lascannons on them.

I seem to remember somewhere that the Siegfried tank was described as being based on a agricultural landcrawler and that it was a simple STC design which had fallen out of favour with the munitorium. I may be mistaken.

Back to the issue? Are there any Monkey Version Razorbacks out there? Or are they the sole perogative of the Marines?

Id say there arent too many monkey versions. (Read civilian in FFG 40k speak).

Simply because the Razorback only has a short time of existance and is simply not favored that much. The Astartes get their stuff, because its hard to sy no to them, plus their turret gets all the nioce gubbinz. Its essentially an unmanned turret.

So getting a civilian Razorback should be rather hard, since youd miss out on all the tech needed to make that turret work.

OTOH Simply get a Chimera, itll be a bit slower and has the same armour protection. (yeah less on the flank, more on the glacis plate), so if you can survive being somewhere 5 minutes later, you should switch.

If you MUST have an armed transport ready to airlift with you favourite guncutter, then you really have to cough up alot of thrones and call in favours. (If you follow the lines of, without the tech it aint no razorback). because really, you arent Marines, so you dont need the "extra" space for transportation of power armoured 2 metre tall guys (if you want to argue this point). At average its probably 1.75 metre tall power armourd guys.

You know, as a CSM i really love the upgunned Rhinos. Far superior to most razorback versions and still transports all 10 Marines.

Next detour. This gives me a fun idea, get a cadre of Ratlings, fit em with light power armour, and give em "sniper" Lascannons.

Voronesh said:

Still, as far as I understand it, Rhinos could be produced almost everywhere. Apart from the aforementioned tactical considerations, the fact that they aren't is likely also due to the AdMech's OPEC-style market policies.

Lightbringer said:

Just like the Elysians have the Tauros RAV , I'd deem it possible that other specialized Regiments (thinking of the Steel Legion here) have something along the lines of what you are looking for, but just like the Tauros it's just not "standard issue" for the Guard as a whole, as it doesn't fit the aforementioned style. You might like the 6-wheeled Tauros Venator variant also mentioned in the last link, though.

Captain Harlock said:

In terms of 40k, you might even translate this way of thinking to the Gateway World of Cadia. As far as I know, the Cadian Kasrkin are the only equivalent to the Munitorum's special purpose Storm Trooper Regiment outside the Inquisition, to name just one example.

Voronesh said:

Sidenote: Is the turret really considered to be unmanned now? I distinctively remember a Marine manning it on the old models, and just assumed he'd now be protected by the metal canopy (and thus invisible) in the new ones.

PS: Also, given that this is Rogue Trader ... instead of commissioning a Razorback-Lookalike (which I still deem possible), couldn't you just take a Rhino and modify it yourself? The AdMech would not like this, but as it happens "out there" I don't suppose this would be an issue. There's got to be a few outlaw techs in the Fringe willing to put a turret up there.

Lynata said:

Nah, the Venator (nice as it is) is still a 2 seater. Its just got a heavy weapon not a special weapon, that's all. It's basically a quad bike with a gun on top. Actually, that sounds awfully dismissive of a fine miniature, which is not my intention, but it still has to be said this is a specialist drop vehicle, not a workhorse jeep/land rover/humvee analogue.

I just think it's slightly ridiculous to assume that a guard armoured regiment transports everything around using battle tanks or APCs. If they're delivering water/ammunition/post/ to the front line, is it really that economic to use a Trojan towing a trailer, or does it make more sense to send a truck? How many millions of gallons of promethium would be wasted every day if they did that? Do you rate the chances of an army which takes 14 hours to get casualties to a field hospital because they're using artillery tractors to transport casualties? Logic dictates that an army run purely with tracked vehicles or walkers is less sustainable than an army which uses wheeled vehicles as well.

And yes, I know that this is 40k, logic doesn't apply, etc etc. But there comes a point when a willing suspension of disbelief becomes strained.

Modern armies are awash with light wheeled vehicles; they outnumber every other type. And how cool would it be to have your guardsmen/scout marines/acolytes cruising around in a special forces-style 4x4 with guns hanging off it? You know I'm right.

EDIT: Sorry, this is one of the few bees in my bonnet about 40k, we need a jeep, damnit!

Lynata said:

The Sentinel is another scout. So yeah they have a nontank scout. But its a nonvehicle scout at the same time. So the IG is still mostly, tanks.......(Aand the Salamander looks more like a Marder TD.....)

I agree that the Astartes get stuff based on the Emperor and not because they hold true political power, the end result is just the same. Though your wording is far more correct .

The Razorback can have a guy sitting in the turret, if you count the old style one, But then old style also has Eldar walking toilets.... I was stricly basing this off the new turret, which simply has no space for a full marine.

(Well even the Predator is pretty much a french style one man turret, but given enough tech i could imagine it working)

Last point, Id allow an Explorator to make a few Tech-Use tests and turn a Rhino into any variant he likes. Its just a question of being able to manufacture said high tech optics/sensors to allow said STCs to work.

Predator Sidemounts are another good example.

Voronesh said:

I love the sentinel, it's one of my favourite miniatures. But it's a one man scout vehicle that in comparison to modern bikes and wheeled vehicles is pitifully slow. At the risk of beating this drum until everyone is heartIly sick of me, a multipurpose 4x4 is a painful omission from the Imperial Guard armoury.

And Voronesh I think you're completely right: other than the venator and the Tauros, there are no wheeled vehicles in the Guard armoury. They used to have bikes, but not in the current range. I think GW really need to address this point in the next round of Imperial Guard Miniatures.

[ALL: ALRIGHT, WE GET IT, YOU WANT AN IMPERIAL GUARD JEEP! SHUT UP!!]

Er...Sorry.

As far as i know the Rhino is THE original STC - used as a heavy duty exploration and labour vehicle during mankind's initial forays into the stars. The design was made as simple and robust as possible, so that frontier colonists wouldn't need constant maintenance and spare parts, and so that modifications could be made when necessary. This is why it is the chassis used for all Astartes tanks and transports bar the Land Raider.

It still sees heavy civilian use however, though it will lack the advanced armour plating, efficient drive system and armament. I think it's entirely reasonable for you think up virtually any variant you wish, as long as you use the Astartes variants as a rough guideline (i.e. if you put a turret on it, you half the transport capacity - the turret can have a twin-linked heavy weapon, or a heavy weapon with a twin-linked basic weapon co-axially mounted. if you add sponsons you lose half your capacity again, though there's nothing stopping you having sponson but NO turret - a sort of reverse-razorback).

Okay simple answer? Yes.

Lightbringer said:

However, keep in mind that, whilst tracked vehicles may not be as fast as wheeled one (do not underestimate them, though: a German Leopard II MBT can achieve 72 km/h, how much faster would you want your jeep to go?), but they are much more reliable in difficult terrain. And I'm not just referring to the snowy wastelands of Valhalla or the muddy jungles of Catachan, but also the trench-filled battlefields that commonly result out of prolonged conflict like on Armageddon or Vraks. How would you drive a four-wheeled ambulance through something like this ?

Plus, there's also flyers, used for both transport as well as

Yes, it's still a stretch, but I don't find it that hard to believe. There are "worse" things in the setting.

Voronesh said:

Voronesh said:

The Lexicanum article notes that it only has a driver and no gunner - and even though that bit of info isn't from a GW source, I'm willing to buy it, given how the "new" Razorback looks like. That said, wouldn't it still possible to "emulate" this? Just put a Servitor into the passenger compartment and permanently slave him to the weapon via MIU interface. Might even be exactly how the Astartes variant does it as well.

Voronesh said:

Go to any battlefield where Space Marines did not win and did not return for their dead/machines. Pick ones where the risk of getting killed by what killed the Astartes is no longer there. Hope no one had this idea before you. Dig up dead Rhino/Razorback, IF one is there. Repair. Rinse, Repeat. Never let any Astartes know where you actually got it. This is the dangerous way.

The Imperial Guard a jeep? No way, they need a Kubelwagen! Far more in sync with their spirit. Then we can give them motorcycles with sidecars as well.

FvR

van Riebeeck said:

Arguably! Some may disagree with that, but I see what you mean. And maybe some staff cars for the Commissars, too!

Lightbringer said:

"Frak ...whats this?" The Guardsman looked at the machine.

"Well the Munitorium in all the wisdome have decided to provide us with new vehicles trooper Colson. They call this a motorbike" Beamed the Commissar Sicca, though in truth he too did not know what to make of it. "With these we will ride into battle against the heretics in an hour's time"

"....It has... two wheels. Looks similar to that of the Adeptus Astartes use. Just with less armour" Then the Inevitable "How do you balance on it"

"One must have faith in the emperor and purity of soul, trooper Colson. When your spirit is balanced in battle then its machine spirit will reciprocate"

"Well yes, but the heretics have earthshaker cannons sir" complained the guardsman "Also the regimental cogboy believes that its STC meme is corrupted, that it's heretical technology that gas not been consacrated for use by the Imperial Guard"

"Be silent and obey! " snapped Commisar Sicca, his demenour changing to that of a stoney face of implacability " Tacit et Pareo ! You will get on the...motorbike. And you will upon it ride to smite the enemies of the Emprah!"

" But...the cogboy said that ...during the Horus Heresy " Coulson's voice lowering to a whisper "the Imperial guard used to ride on things called jetbikes, and that many of those who rode bikes betrayed him on earth.."

"SILENCE! SPEAK NOT OF HERESY" The Commissar drew his bolt pistol "Ride on the bike to face the enemy or face sanction!"

"Yes Sir! Ceratinly Sir"

Ginengerly Trooper Coulson sat on the machine.

CLANG!

bobh said:

If the Space Marines were defeated on a battlefield then it's probably not in an area that is amenable to Imperial interests. Plus, the hulks of vehicles would probably be too damaged by battle and time to be used without considerable repair. After all, Rogue Traders can get Rhinos through legitimate channels. Plus, there's always the chance that the vehicles you recover weren't used by Loyalist Space Marines .

Also, your stories always make me smile, Harlock.

So, to the Siegfried. I drew up stats for them for a Dark Heresy game. The plan was that my Acolytes could eventually run into a missing PDF task force that was currently besieged in the ruins of an industrial complex. They would have had a few Siegfrieds and a little something I cooked up called a Geldern.

The Geldern is based on this adorable little tank here: http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/2789/finished1.jpg. It was made by some Games Workshop guy to count as a Lascannon Sentinel. Sadly, after their website was redone I haven't been able to find the article. Still, I thought it deserved a proper name and some rules.

Siegfried Light Tank

(Description from Epic) The Siegfried is another variant of the famous Land Crawler. It is produced in the huge underground factory complexes of Krieg, and was developed during the Krieg Rebellion as a replacement for the Sentinel, whose complex gyro-stabilised locomotive system and light armour were considered unsuitable for the conditions that prevailed at the time. Although no longer used by Death Korps regiments, who prefer to use the more versatile Sentinel, the Siegfried is still utilised in large numbers by Siege regiments. The Siegfried replaces the simple and sturdy catalytic engine of the Land Crawler and Bruennhilde with a considerably more powerful gas turbine engine. The improved power-weight ratio gives the Siegfried almost double the top speed of the Land Crawler, even though it is fitted with considerably more armour. Siegfried tanks are used as a mobile reserve by the Baran Siegemasters, and are also used to exploit breaches in an enemy line.

Type: Ground vehicle
Tactical Speed: 10 m
Cruising speed: 60 kph
Maneuverability : +0
Structural Integrity: 20
Size: Enormous
Armor: Front 24, side 18, rear 18
Crew: Driver, Gunner
Carrying Capacity: None

Weapons
Multilaser:
Facing all
250m
Heavy
-/-/10
3d10+10E
Pen 4
Clip 60
Reload 3full

Special Rules:
Ground Vehicle
Simple Construction: The Siegfried was built to be as easy to maintain as possible. Any upkeep tests to maintain a Siegfried get a +20 bonus.
Reliable: All Tech Use tests to repair this vehicle get a +20 to the Tech Use test.

Availability: Average

Geldern Self-Propelled Gun

Like the Siegfried, the Geldern is a combat vehicle based on the agricultural Land Crawler design. It was developed to provide mobile anti-tank firepower to Imperial Guard light tank battlegroups. In practice, the Geldern has had a mixed record. Its Lascannon certainly is capable of destroying larger targets than the Siegfried and its improved frontal armor does make it a bit more durable. However, the limited traverse of its main gun means that the Geldern is a poor substitute for a real tank in large mobile battles. Its armor is still too light to stand up to much anti-tank firepower as well.

Type: Ground vehicle
Tactical Speed: 10
Cruising speed: 60
Maneuverability: +0
Structural Integrity: 25
Size: Enormous
Armor: Front 27, side 18, rear 16
Crew: Driver, gunner
Carrying Capacity: None

Weapons:
Lascannon
Facing front
300m
Heavy
1/-/-
5d10+10E
Pen 10
Clip 5
Reload 2Full

Special Rules:
Ground Vehicle
Reliable
Simple Construction

Availability: Average

Captain Harlock said:

It reminds me of the old Rogue Trader book, where the Imperial Army had access to Rhinos, Land speeders, Robots, and of course, the super iconic Thudd gun. *THUDD*THUDD*THUDD*

Lynata said:

Yeah. Id argue the no gunner part. I mean driving and firing a gun that has a distinctly different position? This pretty much forces you to include a servitor.

(Minor random fact. A Space Marine chapter has 10 companies made up of 100 men. No one ever counts the command guys with their squads or the vehicle crews or the pyskers or the techmarines, you get the point. Pretty much MUST be more than 1000 guys.)

Since the Explorator has tech-use past 100, you can simply set a timeframe and let it happen automatically. Heck as long as its based off intelligence, the Explorator should be able to reach 70 + 20 for assists quickly enough.

Braddoc said:

I loved the Thudd Gun in Final Liberation. Took it for the style and sound alone.

They even made it into 2nd Edition and were mentioned in relatively recent licensee publications... We totally need stats for it!

@Voronesh: I could see that Tech-Marines and Psykers are not counted as support personnel - but aren't the HQ unit and the drivers considered to be part of the companies, as in being one of its squads?

while salvage is always possible and it gives the Explorator something to do, acquisition could be a small side quest for profit factor. You can't be the only scavenger of a battlefield, then there's always the organisations trying to recover their tech or someone else's.