"If the Space Marines were defeated on a battlefield then it's probably not in an area that is amenable to Imperial interests. Plus, the hulks of vehicles would probably be too damaged by battle and time to be used without considerable repair. After all, Rogue Traders can get Rhinos through legitimate channels. Plus, there's always the chance that the vehicles you recover weren't used by Loyalist Space Marines ."

Of course if a vehicle bites you when you dig it up just cover it back up and run lol.

Lynata said:

Unfortunately not.

A company is made up of 10 squads with 10 men each (pretty every SM codex has a table). Every company has theoretically 10 Rhinos plus a few preds/other tanks as a tank force. Add the Captain and his command squad of 5. Every company probably has a techmarine, since chapters are rather spread out. thats not even counting the Space Marine Thunderhawk pilots (Unless the Reserve company spreads out for Thunderhawk pilots, which i havent really read anything about). This is quickly more than 120 Space Marines to form a single 100 Space Marine company.

So unless every Space Marine squad has a designated driver (who drives the Rhino by RC if actually fighting oin a ditch) i see no chance of adding up a company on the TO&E to 100 men.

A chapter could run on 1000 men, if its continually understrength. Once it approaches full strength, it can easily reach 1200-1300 marines, depending on how many predator / Land raider crew you actually need.

And some Chapters really don't give a whiff about the Codex (Black Templar and Space Wolves to mention two) so numbers between Chapters can vary wildly outside the strict adherent Chapters like Ultramarines and their Codex-following successor Chapters.

bobh said:

The Inquisition is pretty tough about the numbers, though. The Black Templars get away with it because of their decentralized command structure. There's no good way for the Inquisition to get a headcount even if they do suspect some number irregularities. I'm sure a bit over 1000 isn't a problem but significantly more is.

In fact, that's why they're so leery of allowing new Dark Angels successors to be created. Despite the fact that the DA have very pure geneseed, the Inquisition does not like the fact that the DA successors still take orders from back home.

Lynata said:

Oi, Lynata, there are some stats for it... if you play the tabletop game. Forgeworld posted experimental rules for the Thudd gun back in 2005. (They called it a "quad launcher" for some reason but the description made it very clear that it is, in fact, the iconic thudd gun.) I have a copy, but since that information is copyright GW, I'm not sure posting it is at all prudent. Suggest you search Forgeworld's downloadable .pdfs for "quadlauncher" and see if its still there.

Cheers,

- V.

Voronesh said:

Small and cute fact I noticed the other day flipping through DW. It mentions each company has 1000 Brothers At Arms. Now, I don't know if there are any other canonical references that phrase the numbers on a chapter like that, but saying Borthers At Arms suggests that it only counts the bodies in the company squads, not command organisation, Reclusiarchy, Librarium, etc. Interesting concept, anyhows.

Also, IIRC (and please don't ask for a page number or source because I simply can't remember) but the Black Templars break the numbers game cause they were a gian't middle finger from Dorn to Guilliman. Dorn, still being a bit pissed off that e was having to split his Legion, basically noticed that the Codex Astartes didn't put a number restriction on a crusade, so he sent most of the Legion off into the stars, got Sigismund to lead them and asked Gulliman, "What are you going to do about it? Jerk."

A 1000 Space Marines to a company ? That sounds like going against any bit of the 'canonical' versions. Is that certainly no typo? As Space Marines might probably let their chapter grow a bit above the canonical 1000 Astartes, purely for practical reasons. They do indeed need drivers, pilots, command crews for their starships and sundry staff, not to mention that most of them will probably try to maintain a core of experienced marines out of combat, too ensure continuity of the chapter if a dreadful mishap might befall them on the battlefield. From other discussions on this forum it allready seems that most of us are of the opinion that the strategic capabilites of the Adeptus Astartes are heavily overrated in the fluff. Yes, they are warriors without peer. But no, a few companies or even a whole chapter is not enough to conquer a reasonably populated planet. So 1,000 or 1,300 will not seriously affect the strategic balance within the Imperium, the only reason the Astartes are restricted in Chapter size. But allowing a chapter to number over 10,000 seems a different thing, as it creates a precedent that other chapters will follow. And then the strategic balance within the Imperium will be affected.

FvR

numb3rc said:

Well as mentioned the BA are the middle finger for the Papa Smurf.

The Space Wolves didnt even care to lift a finger.

The DA simply split their legion into organizational units at regiment size called chapters.

So yeah, 3 out of 9 loyal legions ignored the Codex Astartes in one way or another. The Salamanders and the (Raven Guard/Iron Hands?) werent strong enough to really ignore the Codex.

@van Riebeeck

Must be a misprint if its newer information, the around 1000 marines per chapter is pretty consistent in newer fluff. (Cant speak for RT or 2nd ed, but since 3rd its 1k per chapter)

The Black Templars do not have only 1000, but exactly how many is questionable since they are on a constant crusade. They are fighting on usually multiple fronts and the constant need to recruit to replace fallen brothers means that it is impossible to do a census proper even for the Black Templars themselves. Estimates have them at far more than 1000 but a few disasterous campaigns might bring them back to 1000 or less. Even so it is unlikely that they ever exceed 2000.

Ultramarines and successor chapters tend to be almost pure codex with differences being in combat doctrine.

Dark Angel, Blood Angel, White Scars, Ravens Guard, Imperial Fists & Salamanders and successor chapters follow codex somewhat in organization structure - but each follows their own combat doctrines and specializations. They have their own cultures however and usually follow the codex only as it suits their needs.

Space Wolves & Iron Hands and successor chapters are the least codex like organization.

Well, the main thing is that other Imperial organisations will do everything to orevent the establishment of vast chapters. As soon as they will get too big, the internal balance within the Imperium will be threatened, and then things start to move.

FvR

Hantheman said:

Actually estimates for the Black Templar is at constant 5k-6k marines range.

Dark Angels and successors(almost 6 chapters) are made of codex size chapter that are united at the chapter ledearship positions and can and will work as a single unit. So a Dark Angel chapter master can will command space marines from the successors chapters.

Salamander do not follow the codex in structure even if their size is codex.

Space Wolves do not follow the codex neither in size or structure.

Blood Angels and Iron Hands do not follow the codex in structure but do so in number.

van Riebeeck said:

That most certainly WAS a typo - clearly being mentally challenged, I wrote company instead of chapter. Watch as I now flee in shame.

*flees*