My opponet has two units in his battlefield.

I play DE and have one Monster of the Deep and one Shades.

In the first step of his battlefield phase he decides to attack the zone with my Shades. In the Action window after i use the ability of my Monster to prevent both of his units to be chosen as attackers. So he has started an attack but no attackers.

Does his Battlefield phase end here or does it go on? Can i declare my Shades as Defenders and trigger their ability later?

Scout
After combat damage is applied, the controller of
any surviving participating unit(s) with the Scout
keyword forces his opponent to discard one card at
random from his hand for each of his participating
units with Scout that survived the combat.

I would say that there is no combat damage applied during your particular case even if you are allowed to declare your scout as defenders. But I am not able to say if you are able or not to declare your shades as defenders of an attack with no attackers.

I don't think that applying damage is necessary to trigger the Scout ability espeically if I read the text on the card. Triggers are taking part in combat and surviving it. Question is until which point do I need attackers to have a combat? Also interessting for direct damage tactics which can kill all attackers before they assign their damage.

Good point. (not talking about the different text) :

So if I try to make something more visible :

1- Does an attack phase with no attackers stop directly after attackers declaration?

2- If no to 1- is it allowed to declare defenders of an attack with no attackers?

3- If yes to 2- do I have to at least apply 0 damage to use "scout"?. (I mean there is at least a unit to apply 0 damage on it).

(Please tell me if you do not agree with those 3 questions)

I have to say that it is not so easy to answer all those questions

Good start let me extend that a little:

1. Does a battlefield phase with no attackers stop directly after attackers declaration?

2. Does a battlefiled phase with attackers declared stop if all of them are eliminated in the action-window after their declaration?

2.1. If no to 1 and/or 2 - Is it allowed to declare defenders on an attack with no attackers?

3. Does a battlefield phase stop if all attackers are eliminated in the action-window after defenders declaration?

3.1. If yes to 3 - Will this count as a combat for the purpose of triggering the "Scout"- or other combat related effects?

4. If both sides in the assigning of damage part assign no damage, does this count as a combat for the purpose of triggering the "Scout"-ability?

5. Can I skip the battlefield phase?

5.1 If no to 5 - Do i have to start an attack? (NOT meaning do i have to declare attackers)

faq 1.4

If the active player declares no
attackers, both players still have the
opportunity to take actions during the
Battlefield Phase.
The turn ends. The other player is now
the active player. Proceed to beginning
of the next turn.

So battle field phase starts even if no attackers are delcared or you have prevented your opponend player from declaring any attackers.

For a unit to participate in combat you need to declare it a defender or attacker. If no attackers are declared, you dont get to choose a defender.

You cant use monster form the deep in response to declarations of attackers, as it is not an action. For monser from the deep to work you need to use his ability afeter your opponend declares which zone he is going to attack. The same goes for defenders, you need to use monster from the deep ability after you declare which zone you attack before defenders are chosen.

Assuming some attackers have been declared. battle field phase ends after damage has been appied in the last action window ( which is considered the end of battle phase )

3. Does a battlefield phase stop if all attackers are eliminated in the action-window after defenders declaration?

3.1. If yes to 3 - Will this count as a combat for the purpose of triggering the "Scout"- or other combat related effects?

3. No battle field wont stop if you killed all the attackers in the action window that follows declaring defender - sometimes you have to resolve effects that kick in after declaring defenders ( eg. black dragon rider ), but no damage is assigned ( unless your units damage themselsf as an effect of beeing delcared as a defender eg frierdich hemmler ).

3.1 Yes scout ability will trigger if attackers have been eliminated after declaring defenders, but after the next phase: counting and assigning damage, which in this case will be 0

5. Can I skip the battlefield phase?

No - some effects may occur only in this phase. Battlefield phase starts, both players have opportunity to take actions ( starting from the active player ).

the turn timing section in faq 1.4 will make things more clear then my anwser, as you are asking about basic things

Actually the faq 1.4 don't really help here.

Neither the rules nor the faq say that you aren't allowed to declare a defender if there is no attacker. That is what this all is about.

The Monster's abi and the turn sequence are totally clear.

To correct you in a little point: the damage is not applied in the last action window. It is applied in the applying of damage part of the battlefield phase which is followed by the last action window.

Neither the rules nor the faq say that you aren't allowed to declare a defender if there is no attacker

You are right, but it is logical, that you need to be attacked to defend

Yeah you are right. You can only defend if you are attacked but you don't need an attacker to be a defender. For the Scout ability: You can still send your spies to the enemie's army even if something deters his units from attacking.

Why would hey put

If the active player declares no attackers, both players still have the opportunity to take actions during the Battlefield Phase.

into the turn structure?

My understanding is that this implies that no steps happen after Active player declares attackers if the player doesn't declare attackers. Otherwise the sentence would be redundant. And if no steps happen, there is no way for the defending player to assign defenders.

Actually it may imply that you just go on normally even though there is no attacker

If you are right, what happens if all attackers are eliminated in the action window right after declaring attackers?

One would get to declare defenders and if the defenders have scout and survive, cards will get drawn.

My point of view is that WH:I rules syntax is incredibly weak, hence common sense should be applied. And I also understand that what is sensible differs from person to person

Here's for example some even more obscure wording taken from Animosity:

Play after a zone is attacked. Action: Target unit must defend this turn, if able.

The intent for the card, as I feel it is: a unit will defend this turn, but for it to defend, declare defenders step should happen this turn. Hence the requirement to play it after a zone is attacked. Now, what does "zone is attacked" actually mean by the rules? Honestly, I've got no idea ) I think that zone is chosen, and attackers declared, but it's not based on anything but common sense.

Flavourwise - and I understand that this cannot really be used to base a ruling upon, - units destroyed, dismissed or corrupted after the zone is chosen have never been attackers, so they never actually have reached the front line. The ones destroyed, dismissed or even sacrificed after have made it to a battelfield, but then clever usage of artillery, maneuvers or arcane magicks has prevented them from harming anyone. So, a battle does happen in a way, and since it does defenders are possible to call in.

I can tell you with certainty that "a zone is attacked" triggers after attackers have been declared, and doesn't trigger if attackers are not declared. I had this specific discussion with Lukas.

Entropy42 said:

Thanks for clarification, Entropy42.

Well, to me this suggest that the "for a unit to be declared as a blocker there should be a declare blockers step, for a declare blocker step to happen there shold be a declare attackers step with at least one attacker declared" point of view is the one.. errr... hinted by designers.

I understand that without an "official ruling", or at least mail clarification, many players will not be convinced anyway

I think we may get clarification on this whole subject in the next FAQ, which also should be coming relatively soon since they always release one about a month before GenCon.

Entropy42 said:

you was right

Entropy42 said:

after 4 months passed, nothing release.

This question was answered in the v1.5 FAQ, Section 3.

I don't think it was, at least not in a conclusive way. It just says that if no attackers are declared, you immediately skip to the "End of turn" action phase. It could be argued that since that action phase is the earliest opportunity, you could trigger "zone is attacked" effects in it, if in fact just declaring the zone and no attackers were enough.

I know what you meant and that you're correct overall, I just think the FAQ isn't very clear there.

Oh, sorry, I didn't actually re-read this whole thread. I can tell you though, that a zone is not considered attacked until attackers have been declared, so in the example you gave, you can't trigger anything in the End of Turn window, since "when this zone is attacked" trigger isn't met.