For some reason, the rules of semi-auto and full auto fire wrankle with me. It just does not feel right that shooting loads and loads of bullets make your fire more precise then short controlled burst. There is a reason all armies with well trained troops tend to go for weapons with a burst mode these days. So I am thinking off proposing my group to switch the rules, i.e. +20 and 1 hit/DOS for burst mode, and +10 and 1 hit/2 DOS for full auto mode. This would allow full auto to still do a load of damage, far more then semi-auto with a good shot, but would stop it from being that ever precise fire attack, each bullet hitting and killing. Or would this have to much impact?

Friedrich van Riebeeck, Navigator Primus, Heart of the Void

9 times out of 10, I would agree with you. In this instance, however I do not.

Reason the First: This is WH40K. Unleashing a withering storm of ridiculously over-sized, rocket-assisted, explosive rounds because it's the best way to deal with a threat is a staple of the setting.

Reason the Second: The autofire bonus is part of what makes the system work with low skill values.

Reason the Third. This is WH40K.

Having said that, I don't think your change will hurt the system in any meaningful fashion.

As an aside, I do hate the term "semi-auto burst" however, and changed it to "semi-auto rapid fire" in my game.

In my games the range modifiers are doubled for full-auto fire. Makes it appropriately scary in a narrow corridor ten metres away from the servitor with a heavy stubber, makes it far harder to fill someone with lead from a hundred metres away,

I think the key thing is to note that "hitting" is not the same thing as "precision." FA's +20 is a representation that more lead = higher chance of possibly hitting.

The real issue is the rate of hits per DoS. Personally, I see swapping between 1 hit / 2 DoS of semi auto with the 1 hit / 1 DoS of full auto. Keep the +10 and +20 the same with each of the attacks (semi auto is less lead, so less overall chance of hitting). By swapping this, it makes SA more useful at times, and represents a notion that if you hit the first time, you're far more likely to hit the next 1 or 2 times, while full auto, you might wing em once, but you have to be lucky to do it twice (although mechanically, either will net you two hits on rolling exactly BS)

The range modifiers change sounds cool, but it sounds like too much work in practice. Also, I'm guessing that's negative modifiers only? Otherwise short range is deadly.

I will say that I strongly believe that FA should receive a higher "to hit" bonus over any other fire mode. The key is scaling how many actual hits are scored.

KommissarK said:

As has been said before, Full Auto isn't more precise, it just represents that out of that barrage, something is going to hit out of sheer luck.

A problem with this rule, however, is that 3- or 4-round FA bursts have the very same chance as a volley of 10 shots, which breaks the aforementioned explanation a little and causes problems in that it makes low-ROF weapons more attractive for Full Auto than high-ROF models simply because of less ammo consumption with (most of the time) the same effect.

How about giving everything with ridiculous ROF half that number and replacing it with Storm?

So a heavy bolter has ROF 5 and Storm.

But i like the idea. I am toying with FA being +30 to BS but behaving like Semiauto for DoS. In combination with the change above.

KommissarK said:

It's supposed to be deadly, really. The point of the exercise was to encourage my players to use cover instead of thinking that they can just stand and shoot anything that comes their way. It worked out rather well.

Errant said:

I find this system attractive myself. Despite the number of shots that are being fired, I reject the idea that full auto fire should have the best chance to hit something at extreme range. The recoil of a fully automatic weapon is such that it will have a very wide pattern of hits at very long ranges. An aimed shot should be a better option at these ranges, not an equivalent one.

However, after reading this Dark Heresy thread ( http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=100&efcid=3&efidt=500816 ) I've been considering a slightly different system. Perhaps Full Auto weapons could start with a +0 modifier but get the full +20 back if they are braced. If the weapon is braced, the recoil should be more controllable.

I feel the 1 hit/DOS is still applicable for fully automatic weapons. However, I'm considering extending that 1 hit/DOS to semi-auto weapons as well. Naturally, limitations based on rate of fire still would apply.

I made the following changes:

Semi-Auto is a half action. Talents that modify the ability to move and fire single shot, also modify the ability to move and fire semi-auto.

Full Auto: At point blank range, players may assign a maximum of four hits to any one target. At short range, a player may apply a maximum of two hits to any single target. At all ranges beyond short range, a maximum of one hit may be applied per target. If a target's size modifier is above hulking I allow for an additional hit to be assigned, sometimes more if the size is truly huge.

This makes semi-auto the tactical firing mode of choice, while Full Auto is much more of a crowd disperser then it is a single target killer. More or less like in real life. Single shot is still of value for Accurate weapons and for certain high damage single shot weapons, or situations where ammo is a serious concern. Again, more or less like real life.

So far its worked out ok.

*points to the new, and in my opinion, better, rules for semi auto and full auto in the "Broken Chains" Black Crusade Free RPG Day Demo, now available to download*

MILLANDSON said:

These new rules seem shockingly terrible for heavy weapons that can only fire on full auto. They don't seem to mend the issue that a full-auto ROF over about 4 is worse than useless.

But I'm just quibbling over details. Overall, I'd say these new rules are a superior choice over the current system. Maybe throw in a bonus for bracing though.

One wonders why full-auto fire allows the character to move with no penalty whereas semi-auto does not allow movement by RAW, given those rules.

I think the inclusion of the movement in Full-Auto is a mistake honestly.

Regardless, the BC system should be an improvement over the current for sure.

From the sample adventure for the upcoming Black Crusade book in the 40k line, the rules have been changed slightly.

Single shot is a +0 Ballistic Skill test, with a roll that passes equalling 1 hit.

Semi-auto is a +0 Ballistic Skill test, with a roll that passes equalling 1 hit and an additional hit for each TWO degrees of success.

Full-auto is a -10 Ballistic Skill test, with a roll that passes equalling 1 hit and an additional hit for each ONE degree of success.

This change much better suits how weapons work in real life - Full-auto firing with an assault rifle is not going to end up with more shots hitting unless you are a good marksman. It's why for example the US troops were issued with a main armament that was limited to semi-auto bursts (M16a2) because new troopers were wasting too much ammunition and missing a lot.

The Black Crusade change is maybe something to include in previous games, just like the Accurate Trait on weapons is updated retroactively.

Not quite correct, but prolly a typo.

Standard attack is at +10.

Only problem i see for FA, is that it is less probable to hit at all, which is another problem. (But probably a minor one)

Errant said:

I admit, the fact that full auto gives you the worst chance to hit your target at all is a bit jarring. However, I think it's worth it to make the fire modes more balanced.

Less initial chance to hit a target yes, but still the highest damage potential in a skilled marskman's hands. In my previous analogy, green recruits will not be issued weapons with high rates of fire and large clip sizes because they just aren't disciplined or skilled enough to make use of them and so are much more effective firing on single or burst fire. A trained soldier with a marksman award for light machine guns on the other hand can make use of that rate of fire and ammo to deadly effect.

And to be honest, it makes sense that the most ideal firing mode is the middle option because it can then be boiled down to Easy, Normal and Hard firing options.

Actually, movement isn't impeded at all with Semi-Auto - it's a half action.

Same with Full-Auto - it is a half action also.

This means that, with both, you can either move and fire, or aim and get +10 to your roll.

This means that, if you aim, single shots are +20 to hit, semi-auto are +10 with chances to hit with a few extra shots, and full-auto are +0 with a good chance of hitting with several shots.

Hmm. This is certainly better then the original rules and easy to remember/implement.

I approve!

SA/FA have been bothering me since I'd first seen them, mostly the accuracy/precision of the two. FA is the better option in both regards? the nerfhammer is me shudders. I'd always thought to switch the number of hits per DoS, but never implemented it since SA/FA were fun and I'd already handed out the mighty nerfhammer enough at that point.

but summer has provided a nice break, a short pause on game, enough that some rule tweaks to SA/FA makes some sense to me, and y'all have some wonderful ideas flowing.

SA will definitely be 1/2 action and have 1 hit/Dos at +10. still not sure whether FA will be Full or 1/2 action, but I'm leaning to 1/2. FA will probably be +20 with 1 hit/2 DoS, but I'm contemplating +30 and 1 hit/3 DoS (maybe just for the ones with a high RoF, over 5 perhaps).

range modifier doubled with FA? maybe... I like the effect, so why not? harsh on players and enemies, brutal, super murder mode. might just throw that in.

and a limit on how many hits can be assigned per target I like a lot, where the size of the target and range impact how many can be applied, FA only. as a tactical option, SA would allow you to assign all hits to 1 target.

at this point I wish the 40K rpgs had something like WFRPG's luck dice for something more than just binary results with DoS/DoF, so I could throw in something like "oh you succeed on hitting the crowd, but a ricochet hits a party member" when they roll horrible luck.

ridiculously high RoF is fine by me as is. if someone is unconcerned about how much explosive lead they waste just to tag the baddie a bit, good for them. besides, a Fate Point can be spent to make 1 more hit is you're lucky enough to be between DoS, but won't always be an option if FA is at 1 hit/2 DoS.

and one more thing I was wondering about FA: Dodge allowed? no Dodge? no Dodge but here's a bonus to hit?

Just roughly read over the other posts, I hope no one brought this up already:

We use the new combat rules outlined in the Black Crusade preview.
Single shots: half action, +10
Burst: half action, +0, +1 hit per 2 DOS
Full Auto: half action, -10, +1 hit per DOS

Melee:
Standard attack: half action, +10
Swift attack: half action, +0, +1 hit per 2 DOS
Lightning attack: half action, -10, +1 hit per DOS

Attacking with two weapons: Full action, no modifier

This boosts single attacks making accurate basic weapons much more powerful but it seems to work out well.
gladly non of our chars uses a suspensor because we stimm don't know what they do in the new rules.