I played CoC CCG during AE and UT, but drifted away during the release of Eldritch Edition. I am a fairly competitive type player and did very well during the first GenCon winning two of the four tournaments (one constructed and one sealed deck).

In the past two weeks I have picked up the Dunwich Denizens and Ancient Horrors asylum packs as well as a few common/uncommon singles.

From reading the boards, I have come to a few conclusions. Please confirm or refute these:

1. Mountains of Madness is too narrow in application to provide much value beyond extremely casual decks.

2. The game has gotten a bit quicker.

3. There are combos which can fire early and pretty much lock opponents out of the game. Can anyone explain what these are?

4. Syndicate stunk pretty bad, has it improved at all?

Thanks for all responses.

-Mike

Wow, that question spans the pleistocene and mezazoic era. It cruises cthulhu through base set and expansions and again into a second block. It Hiccuped premiums and yithians and 29 promos. And then we drifted, through six twenty-card releases over a year. The Asylum Packs morphed into the scouts for a Cthulhu and Thrones new era. LCG is to provide six more AP in a scary story line about Julia Brown, six months long. And a core set just out, a collection of reprints, new stories, and eight altered cards.

I think some might argue that syndicate is not at all weak. The pace of the game changed when the cost reducer rituals were banned in F.A.Q. 2.0 7/10/2008. The Rip Off was banned too. The Rainbow Ritualists already met their neutering previous. Some play got slowed, but the geniuses were still putting out fast fast stuff, lock down turn x stuff. And then, amid much tumult, three cards were announced as maximum per deck. Tactical debate took a huge hit. I wonder what wil next win worlds. Can an alienated four card genius bother to compete and win out? Or will play really change? I'll tell you this. The winner won't be pulling from one core.

Thanks for the reply.

I am aware of the change from 4 max to 3 max copies per deck. Having played other ccgs, I am very aware of the impact of 3 vs. 4 copies, but CoC was rather unusual in their 4 max copies in a 50 card deck. Most ccgs had 3 max in a 50 card deck or 4 max in a 60 card deck, so the consistency in CoC was rather unusual for a ccg.

I am aware of the premium starters and purchased 2 copies of the AE premium starter long ago. I have read the spoilers, except for Mountains of Madness, and even have an excel spreadsheet that contains all of the cards except MoM. If anyone wants to host the spreadsheet somewhere, let me know and I will make it avaiable (it is sortable, has database tab, and deck tabs which auto fill in cards based on name and collects stats such as factions, costs, and card types in the deck).

Historically, I have made 2-faction decks with one Mythos faction and Hero faction (I prefer Agency/Hastur and Shub-Niggurath/Miskatonic University).

Any other thoughts are appreciated.

-Mike

IMO, and thats all it is...

1. The cards from that AP are fun (which is the point) but I wouldn't say they are all that.

2. I'd say its about the same as it ever was, IMO.

3. No, cos I don't like or play that type of deck.

4. I think Syndicate is a support faction really, and I don't think it has changed much.

Welcome back to the game.

kalandine said:

1. So far no card from MoM seems a powerhouse (euphemism for: two or three are barely playable) and very very few seem interesting (if you deckbuild 3x mixing white and blackborder) to me.

2. The game has far more (useful) cost reducers than it had in UT. They are exploited mercilessy to generate early effects .

3. So far CoC has seen three combo decks emerge:

3.1. Infinite Discard

this deck focused on Shining Trapezohedron to first search the whole deck

the infinite search goes: (play Upuaut on Shiny Trap, Exhaust Shiny Trap to fetch Upuaut) x2, (Cycle Begins) play A time to reap, play overpaid Journey to the Other Side, play Upuaut, Exhaust Trap to fetch A time to Reap, play A Time to Reap, Exhaust Trap to fetch Journey, Upuaut, Exhaust Trap to Fetch A Time to Reap, (goto Cycle Begins). -There might have been be a tighter version of the Cycle-

Once you find Blackmoor Estate, play it, then alternate between refreshing it and Shiny trap for infinite discard.

Notice: this sequence doesn't work anymore due to Shiny Trap having been faq'ed

3.2. Jump Tech

It has already been posted in these boards, but the main gist of it is: play random ritual, play Adoration of Thoth (infinite times), play refreshers, draw your whole deck (while you are drawing your deck, take some time to put into play 1 Bust of Hypnos). Once your deck is gone, Sac bust of Hypnos. Rinse and repeat until you have your Winning Condition in hand.

3x nerfed this deck original build into oblivion.

3.3. Messengers Deck

Put into play Ithaqua, Y'Golonac and a Messenger (say, Teller of Tales): (Cycle Begins) Sac Messenger to drain opponent's domain, Exhaust Ithaqua to revive, Pay 1 with Y'golonac to refresh Ithaqua (goto Cycle Begins)

Now, the strength of this deck lies in the high number of duplicates (Black Wind for Teller, Anciant Guardian for Y'golonac) and "Tutors" available for the cards (Written in the Sky, Lavinia Whateley, Shocking Transformation et al.)

I didn't do the math, but the deck looks viable in 3x. I must admit this deck autoloses to MonoCthulhu (if MonoC knows what to destroy).

4. Syndicate had become a powerhouse due to 3-4 power cards (The Rip-Off, Ancient Gold, In the Gutter, Triggerman-Fugitive-Anarchist-Extortionist-Hard Case). The banning of The Rip-Off had it abandon tier 1 but the faction is still pretty good.

Hope it helped.

My answer would be very close to Carioz's, with a couple of changes.

1. MoM does have one good (as in, competitive good) card: Alaskan Sledge Dogs. One cost character that by itself has a combat icon and two skill is ok for a faction like the Syndicate who don't have a good one-costers. If you get three of these dogs out, they become Nodens immune (skill 4). Snow Graves (0-cost card that deactivates any discard pile action) may also be one heck of a card, depending on your meta and the future formats of CoC.

However rest of the cards in that pack are not impressive.

2. The game is very quick. Top tier decks usually have their game ended by turn 4, often earlier. Do note that very long games are still possible if the right decks are matched against each other.

3. Carioz said it already, but I have one comment about the Jump Tech: It still works. Sure, it's not what it used to be, but my build still has an average winning time of ~2,5 turns.

Haven't tried the Messenger deck because I'm lacking one key card, but I'm pretty confident it still works. There are a lot of tutors and alternative combo pieces as told already.

4. Syndicate is a strong faction nowadays. What's interesting though, is that the faction (at least to my eyes) has transformed from a pure rush faction into a useful all-around faction. I mean there are still the usual rushing cards (Hard Case, several investigation characters, Panic!) but the control elements are also extremely powerful (7th House from the Left, Ancient Gold, In the Gutter, and maybe even Gun Runner's Club).

The faction I simply can't find any use for is the Agency.

On the new Jump: wow, your 3x Jump build really exceeds mine. I found that once it gets going 3x jump is as good as the old one. In my tests I really channelled the 3x version, going for 7/8 t2 jumps, but math says I've been very lucky.

On the Jump deck...

So, the deck would need to run quite a few domain refreshers. The options I see that could work early in the game are: A Time to Sow, Simple Kindness, and Basil Elton.

I assume that the goal for the initial Ritual (that allows multiple plays of Adoration of Thoth) is to be as cheap as possible. Since the driving cards so far are in the Miskatonic University or Sub-Niggurath factions, the best rituals seem to be: Adoration of Hetheru, Adoration of Thoth, Legacy of Akhnaton, and Legacy of Nitocris. Many of these require a character in play, but that seems achievable if you get teh engine rolling on turn 2 or later.

Thanks for the info. This deck looks like a lot of fun and vastly different from the decks I normally play (Agency/Hastur control, Shubby/MU deck focuses on Black Goat of the Woods).

I am going to post my current decks to the deck construction forum for input.

Thanks!

Check out Stone of the Heart: it works as a refresher in the timeframe needed (i.e. wait until turn 2 then win)

For the kicker ritual: check out Priest of the Desert Moon and Wish for Strength.

Thanks for the input. I can see where playing Wish for Strength for 0 could really help.

One question, are the promo cards still available for Sanity or has the Sanity program ended?

Thanks.

kalandine said:

The Sanity Redemption program has ended. Welcome back to the game!

kalandine said:

1) This seems to be the perception; However, there are some cards that can be valuable in fighting combo decks.

2) Eldritch Edition has resulted in an imense powercreep, and openened up the way to very fast decks.

3) I think these are answered.

4) Are you kidding me? Syndicate is teh awsum. It lost a bit with the rituals being gone, and The Rip-Off being gone, but it still has a pretty good rush/control setup. The "problem" is that even the fasted rush decks have a little problem against some pretty fast combo decks. I don't know if jump tech took too much of a hit with the bannings of the rituals, but generally, this was faster than actually running stories twice, and there are still a lot of good cost reducers, making actual "running" decks still slower then some combo decks. Syndicate also has Ancient Gold now, which is concidered a pretty good cost reducer, and Gun Runners Club, which is great card drawing. Seventh House is one of the best locations since Forgotten Isle.

I have bought neither Mountains of Madness nor Ancient Horrors. I have read your opinions that Mom is rather bad AP. But what about Ancient Horrors? Is it worth buying?

I like Ancient Horrors. Five Ancient Ones, 20 characters, some nice ones, Ghoul Worshiper and Tcho Tcho Tribe are sweet. two or three more are perfectly nice. I like the whole set. caf lady and norm were a lot better than limpy Wilmarth. Hermit's cool enough. I think if you're looking for a strong general card pool, you should consider an old box of boosters.

And Mountains is fine. Thorfinsen is a beautiful card. The Barq is pretty. There is an albino penguin, like him or not. And c'mon the Forgotten Shoggoth and Reawakened Elder Thing are sweet. Yeti, Snow Graves, and Sledge Dog, also are. Masks gets little love but gave us Nyarly, Old Neighborhood, Open for Inspection, and Carl Stanford. Conspiracies gave us Mr. Gray, Displaced Cthonian and the Kitab, but Mountains is not thin or top heavy. Someone detract.

What would the most game changing cards be from the combined Asylum Packs?

Quick evaluation?

1) Safari Hunter: useless. Cons: No willpower, no toughness, high cost. Pros: Investigator subtype

2) Ammo Expert: a very good card... if your opponent uses him against you. Cons: low quality char in a busy cost slot for Agency, Response is so far, useless.

3) Ngambe: strictly worse than Steve.

4) Cafeteria Lady: if you take Misk on the ground (and you will lose) she will make you lose less harshly

5) Football Coach: utterly useless.

6) Albert Wilmarth: Situational. Which means: useless.

7) Finch: Situational. A bit less useless than prof. Wilmarth, might be useful in a Monster heavy environment

8) Demented Caretaker: Interesting, but I'd be wary to use it in a rush deck.

9) Island Heremit: A situational speedbump. I am not thrilled.

10) Bokrug: the least useless of the new ancient ones. He is a 6 cost chump blocker: wow.

11) Ghatanothoa: see Bokrug, except worse.

12) Aspiring Artist: Nice.

13) Spider God: see Bokrug, except worse.

14) Bringer of Fire: could be worse, but I am not thrilled.

15) Cthuga: see Bokrug, except worse.

16) Tcho-tcho: a 5 cost chump blocker. Skip.

17) Opener of the Gate: Interesting effect: could be useful (and gets better the more cards which interacts with Monsters and Spells come out)

18) Nyogtha: see Bokrug, except worse.

19) Ghoulish Worshipper: Interesting. Cost reduction is nothing to sneeze at.

20) Dark Druid: Very Interesting. He screams: "Combo me".

To be fair, if you are looking for something super competative for tournament level play, you probably won't find it in either of these packs. However, if you are looking for something to add for a casual game then you will. I would rather these packs came out primarilly for casual play. but thats just my opinion.

Thank you gentemen for all your comments on the subject. Very appreciated.

Carioz said:

Do you base your evaluation on all of the available cards (i.e. including the old CCG cards) or only on the new LCG cards (i.e. Core + AP5 & 6)?

If it's the former, how would your evaluation change if you based it on the latter?

I base my evaluation on: how good a card seems from a competitive point of view in a 3x black and white border environment.

I am not interested at all in white border only, so I cannot really evaluate them.

The white border cards aren't really a card pool per se. Core is in itself. Even the 120 AP cards out can't really be looked at as an independant card pool that can play as a stand alone unit. Besides core, the game mechanics are found in the sets. The Asylum Packs are better viewed as mini expansions.

Kalandine wrote:

>I played CoC CCG during AE and UT, but drifted away during the release of Eldritch Edition. I am a fairly competitive type player and did very >well during the first GenCon winning two of the four tournaments (one constructed and one sealed deck).

If your a comp player, you prolly want to run as fast as possible from this game. At the very least, wait and look at the new cards coming out. If you were a worlds callibre player, you will figure it out soon enough. The black border cards are going to be illegal so I wouldnt bother to get them, just read the AGOT board to find out what you are in for.

Carioz and Bard wrote:

>On the new Jump: wow, your 3x Jump build really exceeds mine. I found that once it gets going 3x jump is as good as the old one. In my tests I >really channelled the 3x version, going for 7/8 t2 jumps, but math says I've been very lucky.

I rebuilt after the 3x rule just to see, and in 45 mins I had it down to the very low 2s (about 2.1) I am certain with a bit of working that sub 2 is still possible (though 1.8-.9 is most likely). It may still be possible to jump via yog-shub, but I havent the care to try anymore.

Bard gets a B, Carioz a C+. Bonus points to whomever can guess where the deck types name came from....

The_Rip-Off said:

At least, that is what you think is going to happen...

Kotwica said:

Intriguing. have you a link to this post or can you tell me what was the general gist of it?

www.agameofthrones.com/stateofthegame102308.html

The article for AGOT was disappointing.

I understand the desire to support 2 formats, but if a company is so callous as to advertise their back stock of cards/sets in the rulebook of the LCG only to ban those cards from their primary tournament format (and for FFG, that means the format of the World Championships), then that company will be quickly creating a chasm between themselves and their players.

I cannot believe that a company can, in good conscious, push the sell of a product for which they are secretly planning to not allow the use of product in their biggest tournament. I sincerely hope that FFG is smarter than this.

I also think there is a difference between AGOT and COC as I don't think COC ever had as many power level issues as COC.