Hm, i know in the Horus Heresy books as well as the art book (with summary explanation of events) about it it is mentioned. Dark Mechanicus opens with a tale of how one of the Martian Knights witnesses the landing of the Emperor's Space Ship on Mars, and his machine is "healed" by the Emperor's touch (a flaw which was beyond the adepts of Mars to repair). In the book there are several references in passing to the alliance. If you follow the link in my post though at the bottom you can see where the lexicanum got their info from.

As for how it developped: good question. I've no idea. They got a seat on the high lords of terra post heresy, but other then that i doubt much has changed. They did loose a ton of knowledge during the heresy so they are in a worse condition technologically speaking then they were before the heresy.

Errant said:

Just to add my two cents on the matter of the Ad Meh's autonomy; the history of the Imperium is rife with instances of direct orders from Imperial officials (up to and including the warmasters of crusades and Lords Terra) that are flat out ignored by Mechanicus personnel. That is the source of the power of the Ad Mech. They serve the Imperium of Man by choice, rather then by divine missive the way the Imperials do, and when their long time ally orders them to do something that conflicts with their agenda, they refuse the order to the spitting rage of whomever gave it but suffer no consequences because they have the right to autonomy handed down by the Emperor himself.

Now, the flip side of this is the necessity of keeping the Imperium happy. While the Forges have undeniably the most powerful armies and are the sole possessors of Legio Titanicus, the enemies of humanity are many and powerful, and they need the raw manpower the Imperium can bring to bear to ensure their survival. They both need each other to flourish, so they provide the other with what they need. Anyone who thinks the Mechanicus actually has to do what they are told is flat out wrong, they have to do what is best for humanity to avoid destruction. Often this is supporting Imperial troops and Void Fleets, but fairly commonplace is the seeming betrayal of a Magos recovering a relic of ages past.

I know these are not Canon, but off the top of my head this happens in Gunheads, a novel about a Cadian general on a personal quest to recover Yarrick's Baneblade. Likewise the whole book Titanicus is about the Legio Invictus Titan Legion directly disobeying the Warmaster in order to defend a fellow Forge.

numb3rc said:

I'd settle for a link since I have no idea what problems these might be. I've never read Ascension.

signoftheserpent said:

There are a few different threads around, but here are the highlights for me:

• The majority of things you can spend XP on are influence talents. Most could have been replaced by a retooling of the Contacts system from the IH.
• Classes are in no way balanced. Psykers can kill multiple Greater Daemons in a round and Vindicares are the best at just about every form of combat. Meanwhile, the Stormtrooper is good with hellguns.
• Of the new talents added, most are taken from RT. Some of these talents, like the unarmed skills, would make much more sense as elite advances earlier in your career.
• No real rules for building up a web of contacts except in the most crude manners.
• Most special rules are "once per session," meaning that for the rest of the session they really don't matter.
• An especially large number of typos.
• No clear Ascension options for some characters, such as the officer Guardsman.
• Influence rules are inferior to profit rules and don't make sense. I remember posting when Ascension just came out about how RAW it is nearly impossible for a new Inquisitor to pick up a new bolt pistol permanently, even if it is a type of bolt pistol made specifically for the Inquisition.
• Focus on the Cowboy Inquisitor like Eisenhorn rather than a more subtle one. The one rules that allow you to have Acolyte cells makes them shockingly incompetent and totally minimizes the whole realm that Dark Heresy proper operates in.
• Most of the few new Armory items are ripped straight from Rogue Trader.
• Adding buckets of "Peer" skills does not make the game better.
• No rules for requisitioning clear Inquisitorial assets, such as the iconic Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. Sure, you can get one as PC but where are the squads? On the tabletop, you could have gotten over 60 back in the day.
• Not much substantive new fluff.

There's more, but I'll stop there. I do not like Ascension.

i`ll agree it does have its problems and wierdness things and way over powered charaters

does however have some fun stuff in it but that more of a plot thing then anything els. personaly had some real run with my despirado char. who had +10 invulwance on my inquisitor. kind of fun having too aranged everything while trying not too tip of the ones watching

Perhaps the last three ranks should reflect the nature of the game system.

As far as I can make out:

Dark Heresy: Low Level characters ferreting out primarily through Cunning and Investigation threats within the Imperium.

Rogue Trader: Mid Level Characters travelling beyond the Imperium wielding vast Influence and Assets to satisfy their ambitions.

Deathwatch: High Level Characters turning the tide agaisnts the enemys of the Imperium through the precise application of force.

Dark Crusade: (Your guess is as good as mine) Mid-High level characters who wish to gain Godhood through infamous deeds.

While I havnt played dark heresy for years, the Ascension is broken argument seems to be bandied around quite by those I know that I know have stuck with the system. I think the main complaint is that far from allowing the acolyte to become and Inquisitor or throne agent in his own nature fighting the forces of darkness with Guile and Influence and Investigation in the nature of the game system, its seems to pander to the power gamer contingent that wants the individual inquisitor to go toe to toe with greater daemons in the manner of Rocky IV. As far as the fluff suggests inquisitors are not Gene modified Badasses like SM, they are generally weaker and squish more easily, a broad analogy is that they are the Imperiums FBI/CIA and NOT the its Delta Force. Sure Inquisitors leading vast armies and crusades striding in the battlefield in power armour bolter blazing do exist, but it isnt the modus operandi of the majority of the Inquisition.

If they create more ranks for Rogue Trader they should reflect the nature of the game system and not just more talents skills. Which IS a problem because between levelling up or obtaining a new skill and buying a heavy Cruiser or requistioning an army or getting a squad Space Marine terminators to hang out on your ship (just because your influence is that great) I have a sneaking suspicion I think I know which RT players would prefer...

Perhaps there should be a new supplement called "Beyond Hecatons Rift" where RT get hold of modified HALO/archeotech devices to give them a fighting chance against the nameless horrors beyond the koronus expanse. I think any extra levels should be reflected by narrative rather than becoming simply more 'badass'

I would agree, Harlock. You should be able to judge a man by the strength of his enemies and the forces he commands, not based on his stats. Ascension starts throwing out Unnatural PC stats like candy.

There's certainly some place for increasing characters' personal aptitude above and beyond what RT covers, as well as expanding upon the Dynasty's political-financial power.

That said, if I see new career tables even remotely resembling Ascension, I'll be sorely disappointed.

numb3rc said:

Sector governor? Warmaster? I've always concidered some of the movers and shakers out of Terra to be of a higher "power level" than a Rogue Trader.

Cheddah said:

The official power of a Rogue Trader gets pretty shady, but their actual power can easily rival any of those you mention. Slapping honorifics before "Lord Captain" doesn't really change much.

With regards to the Ad Mech: The simple truth is that the Imperium is insanely complicated. In theory the Inqusition holds judgement over all and the AdMech are independent of the Imperium. In practice, everyone in the Imperium from the Adeptus Administratium to the Space Marines is joined at the hip by a complex web of give and take. Everyone is self-sufficient enough to fulfill the basics of their given mission statements and see to their own affairs but there's a point where that just doesn't cut it. That's where we get into the elaborate dance of favors, promises, threats, bribes, and "shut up and deal with it"s that would mark how a Inquisitor and his retinue, a Rogue Trader and his advisors, and a couple of Deathwatch Marines would get along. As for what this means to the average Rogue Trader, it simply means that your red robed friends aren't working for free nor are you necessarily required to simply hand over every odd widget to them regardless of value.

With regards to the original topic: Interesting question, one that first warrents us defining what exactly would define an "epic" RT campaign. From my personal perspective, RT games or at least the published ones are already pretty epic. Frozen Reaches has you overseeing the defense of an entire planet in the face of an Ork Waagh, Lure of the Expanse has you exploring alien ruins and negotiating with despots and commanders of land-based battleships to uncover the location of a fabulous treasure (and wrestling all manner of bennies along the way.) By the time the characters are max rank they've already explored most of the expanse, met most of the influential figures, and accomplished incredible things. How can you get more epic then that except by kicking out all the other Rogue Traders and declaring yourself governor of the Kronus Sector?

Buy DH: Ascension and read the fluff material about what the inquisition can and cannot expect from astartes and mechanicus personnel (it is written with the Inquisitor and acolytes in mind). In truth the inquisition should tread very carefully around both groups.