Hihi that was pretty much my friends fear when i told him about RT. hes used to Cthulhu WW1-2 time periods.

When i mentioned the size of Ork Waagghes and the terryfing power of CSM, he quickly understood how insignificant a RT really is.

For epic, i could imagine the RT getting that Crusade started for The Admiral of Passage Watch 27 Est. On top of that, i dont think a RT character willl be good enough to stop (he can try to survive) a Terminator teleport attack on his bridge led by a souped up TT HQ.

Why does this work for RT so well? Because combat prowess is quite separate from the actual "power" level of a character. There is nothing on the advance scheme that represenst a company of Space Marines supporting a small crusade of the RT. Its totally dependent on the RP aspect of the game, but at the same time, nothing on the advance scheme is as powerful as this tool.

Fully agreed there, the style of play of RT makes it epic, no matter what happens there. It is a game of awesome Empire building. Let's be honest, even the measliest, slowest, most dilapidated transport allready represents more wealth and power then most adventuring parties get at their best. Just the Warrant of Trade is allready an imcomparable gift, a near unique privilige in an Empire where most of the billions can only hope to do their duty as well as is decreed. I myself enjoy that aspect far more then the dakka dakka. Shooting stuff up is nice from time to time, but been there, done it.

FvR

A GM in a game I'm in added an "extra" rank as he pointed out it says what xp the last one ends at, we'll be allowed to take an alternate rank in into the storm then.

In a game I'm just after starting the group is comprised of Deathwatch and Rogue Trader characters, I've said to the Rogue Trader players if they get to the end of the advances we'll just talk it over and use ascension with slight tweaks, ie not using influence since they already have profit factor and if it makes sense for your character with the way he acts you can pick inquisitor... but your not an inquisitor. I might not give the free gear either but it gives them something to advance in and feel their characters are progressing.

Gaius said:

I'd caution against this. Nearly all the new talents in Ascension are Influence talents and the rest are mostly taken from RT or mundane. There's so much overlap I'd just say you could start offering the Influence Talents as elite advances to reflect the growing strength of their influence. Once you get that powerful, I'd say that there's no reason to remain locked in by specific "rank" definitions.

Given the huge number of Elite Advances available, I'm not sure why extra ranks are even needed

Prolly because the ranks don't go as far as the other lines, but mainly because not all gm's allow elite advances at a reasonable price.

MILLANDSON said:

Because Exemplar of metal is not available at all.

And because id prefer to have different (ok ok totally new) talents / skills that are relevant to a warmaster and have no use in personal combat.

RT is big or rather Huge, it doesnt have to be about duking it out yourself all the time. Im thuinking like Air of authority but affecting regiments maybe even adding space marine support as a talent. (ok im blatantly stealing from BC minions here)

wouldn`t all those things fall under command as in commanding say the lead officers of something and then them ordering there ppl too do what you want?

and about SM i don`t think SM take orders from anyone but there own chapter ever (unless ordered otherwise by there chapter)

ordering SM would more likely be something along the line of convising them that you are realy realy honerabal and you have somewhat of a idear of what your doing?

RT you can have hole armys of anywhere between 50 too 50.000 troops given allies. wealth and personal command. or even more if you bargain with the right person and somehow get yourself in the command posision (not that hard seeing your already have one of the most powerful titals around)

and how epic does RT need too be already? your schip has more power then most ppl anywhere els have. you can command armys (your own or other ppl`s) you can grow your own fleet of schips. be the leader of your own little mini empire if you want too. become a diplomat between humanaty and the eldar if you want too go down that road.

how much more epic realy do you think rogue trader need too be?

Okay, crazy question: What would happen if you allow Rogue Trader characters to switch into Ascension careers when they reach the appropriate experience point level?

Obviously it would be hard to find something for the Rogue Trader, Navigator and Astropath, but Confessor, Arch Militant and Explorator would be pretty easy fits. Would it break the system, create monsters that beat up Space Marines for fun or anything similar?

Edit: Maybe the characteristic advances would have to be restricted to the first row....

Mjoellnir said:

Ascension characters can beat up Space Marines for fun if done right. Exemplar of metal, Artificer Armour, Astartes Plasma Gun. "Yeah i am a Magos of the Adeptus Mechanicus, i made this gun, and that guy with the big ]I[ on his shoulder patch says i get to use it."

Or you simply make a really deadly sniper with an exitus rifle.

But basically, how bad can it be? If you want a RT of first rank can buy a squad of multimelta toting mercenaries in Best quality heavy Power Armour. No Space Marine can survive that.

Voronesh said:

And then the member of the many, many Space Marine Chapters who don't give a crap about what the Inquisition wants or says, like the Dark Angels, still shoots him in the head and burns the remains

MILLANDSON said:

And stops getting any ammunition from the AdMech for the rest of the 1st Legions existence.

The DA dont like the Inquisition, but They wont kill an Inquisitor and an AdMech Magos just because one of them uses a Astartes gun. Heck the Astartes are probably those guys who care the least about who uses an Astartes gun. Epseically if that gun is neither needed by the SM nor has any history with any Astartes chapter.

He has a Daemonhost, nahh hes "only" radical but still serves the Imperium. That one uses an Astartes gun, lets kill him!

An Inquisitor can run around in Terminatour armour brandishing a Daemon hammer and a Psycannon if he so wishes. So a Magos who lugs a slightly oversized mastercrafted Plasma Gun around will be hardly a problem.

Seriously? This kinda feels like the "Fel attacked us, but we arent allowed to take his ship as reparations" thread all over again.

You've not read quite how much some of the Dark Angels, or hell, any of the Space Marines hate the Inquisition, have you?

Also, how are they going to know they killed the Magos? It's hardly like they'd broadcast it themselves, or left anyone nearby alive to tell people.

Plus, most Chapters can produce their own ammo to a certain degree, and the Ad Mech totally wouldn't stop producing arms/ammo for them just because one Magos who committed heresy got shot.

MILLANDSON said:

1. I play the Angels of Absolution. So yeah i know. They still dont kill every single Inquisitor with a slightly diverting habit. Its just a bad idea to kill every guy of an organization that might just write extermination on your ass. (I rather find your attempt at an attack on my 40k knowledge rather weak, considering the slew of discussion we already had) Any Space Marine implies every space marine, and we know how mutch Grey Knights or Deathwatch "hate" the inquisition. Plus how many 1st legion marines are out there? You have to meet them first.

BTW you arent even 100% correct. They dont hate the I, they dont want ot be found out. Its a hate/fear relationship.

2. And now we get a diverting case here.

EITHER: FFG scred up and we know it. Space Marine bolters arent THAT different. So the whole discussion is moot. Yes, yes thats my point of view.

OR: We consider what FFG wrote and go with it: The Adeptus Mechanicus keep sthe best stuff for itself. They are an ally of the Imperium and not its vassal; and they often enough tell you just that. EG: Titan legeions get asked nicely. You dont order them around.
So basically you are th AdMech, and you can equip your troops/yourself with better or worse weaponry. You dont havy any emotion.
And you know that if Space Marines get to know about, its practically as likely that the AdMech will know about the murder. Yeah consider the chapter that did the deed to be cut off from AdMech supply for a looong while. Until they made reparations.

Basically trow to D10. If the first one is only a 1, the Scace Marines will kill the Inquisitor group. If the other die also shows up as a 1, the chapter(s) in question are from now on cinsidered to be in servitude to the AdMech.

Hephastius Bore got kicked out of the AdMech because he was dealing with warp Tech and its real space application. Some Magos who builds a slightly bigger Plasgun (cause an astartes weapon is nothing else but that) wont even show up on their scanners if he shows up to a meeting with said weapon. Well hell get a reprimand for showing up with a weapon maybe.

Ruleswise: A Magos with Exemplar of metal (well Machinator array is all you need) can run around with a Plasma Cannon AND a Heavy Bolter strapped to his back (I cant hear you over the huge amount of SB+TB carrying allowance) who will have more firepower than a single astartes plasgun. Booyah. Whats worse? The guy running around with a heavy weapon or an oversized rifle?

On the status of the Adeptus Mechanicus I'd prefer 'one of the feudal powers within the Imperium' rather then an 'Ally'. A bit nitpicking perhaps (but guess Voronesh can take that), but a huge difference. They still have to be asked nicely and treated with care, but they have duties and they should fulfill them. In each case, to understand the whole Imperium you have to get in the feudal mindset. Every party has its rights and duties, and has to be treated with circumspection, whether it involves the relationship from top to bottom (as in the Lords of Terra deciding they need some Titan Legions in a given sector) or between comparable power groups (as a Space Marine Chapter that needs a favour of the Adeptus Mechanicus).

In each case, this level is to me the true level of epic RT. They have a unique position within this feudal Imperium, in that they have enormous rights but fairly limited duties, if any. That gives them a position in the powerplay between the different Imperial factions that they can use to enhance their standing and power, even if that will often diminish their freedom of action. Walking the Path of Daggers always means binding yourself with ties of alliance and hate. But as I said before, I'd like to try and be a Caesar. Or Paternova in my case. If I wish play the ultimate warrior, I would not seek it in RT.

FvR

Or, to phrase it differently, 'They are a vassal, but not a servant'. That is the whole problem with vassals, you cannot just order them around. Especially as the Sovereign is sitting on his Golden Throne without being that occupied with the day to day running (or century to century) of the Imperium...he is busy enough trying to maintain his psychic existence. The result is that in this feudal state, the true power lies with the Oligarchic Lords of Terra, who are equals and who each have the backing off one of the powers that be within the Imperium. Add to that all the other currents and undercurrents of Imperial rule, and you get a delightfully complex mix that Machiavelli would have loved to get his hands in.

FvR

P.S. If a Space Marine chapter would be so stupid to start killing every Inquisitor that knocked on the door, they would very very quickly become a bunch of renegades...if not for killing the agensts of the Inquisition, then just for what they are obviously hiding. Furthermore, it would be hidiously bad manners.

All Forge Worlds are not equal. And the Mechanicus gives two ***** about the Inquisition. An Astartes killing a Majos means squat. Even if the Majos wasn't asking for it.

van Riebeeck said:

A huge difference indeed but Ally is correct. The emperor once wore a one-headed eagle as his symbol and it was made into a two-headed eagle after an alliance with the Empire of Mars. Technically speaking the AdMech are an ally, not a vassal. In day to day operations of course they are largely an extremely powerful vassal, but even so they are an ally and the reason for the second head on the imperial eagle.

And honestly: why are we discussing this? The described situation could turn out all kinds of ways depending on the variables.

Generally speaking though: I highly doubt an Astartes would shoot an Admech Magos over an Astartes-sized plasma gun. We've seen Magos running around with all kinds of nasty in the fluff and they technically have the right to equip their own as they see fit. Astartes have a limited ability to produce their own ammo, usually not nearly enough for their needs though. Also, they generally rely on the Admech to train their techmarines and provide most of their equipment.

Astartes also tend to pursue the enemies of mankind, so unless the Magos and his Inquisitor would register as such or stand in the way of their doing so without good reason ... i'm not buying the whole 'they shoot them out of hand because one of'm has a big gun' premise.

An Ally? In about everything I know of them they are considered a part of the Imperium, with Lords of Terra amongst their ranks to boot. As Dark Heresy says, semi-autonomously, an Empire within an Empire. To me that makes them vassals. Very powerful vassals, that you have to treat with circumspection and respect, but still a vassal, not an independent autonomous ally.

FvR

Anyone worthy of the rosette or having crawled up through the backbiting politics of the higher ranks of Adeptus Mech, has the lateral thinking, foresight and contingency of their allies knowing who/where/why they will be dealing with someone dangerous and if they didn't come back, there would be some very severe questions directed in that area. Its all fun and sneaky games until you're balling around full of sedatives somewhere dark, nasty and while a psyker peels your mind apart like layers of an onion digging around for memories.

Sort of like a dead mans switch attached to localised temple assassin levels of pain

Even derp-watch marines and powerful rogue traders should be extremely careful about just who they "whack" out of an immediate convenience...

van Riebeeck said:

Good luck with that.

van Riebeeck said:

van Riebeeck said:

Nope. They are not vassals. They are allies. The empire of the Emperor and the empire of Mars forged an alliance to become a union with both remaining sovereign bot cooperating within set boundaries. Most important points of note were that the Admech would henceforth supply and service the Imperium of tech. And the Imperium in return would hand over any and all STC tech to the mechanicum.

Basically, it's more or less like the US: sovereign states with a defined set of things that they will do together. In this case that is rather simply put expand the human realm and knowledge whereby knowledge cannot be expanded in a certain amount of domains (such as warptech, AI, mixing alien with human genes, ...). The Admech is still sovereign on it's forge worlds though, they also gained the exclusive service of a number of Navigator houses (at the time there were - if memory serves me right, not to sure though - 12 Navigator houses, the emperor ceded 5 to the admech). So nope: not a vassal. For all intents and purposes the forge worlds are independent of the Imperium and an Inquisitor had best tread VERY lightly when on them.

As the lexicanum puts it:

Union with the Imperium

After the Emperor formed the Imperium, he engendered support with the Martian Mechanicum, an already existing empire. On Mars, he was commonly seen as the Omnissiah, the earthly representative of the Machine God. As the Mechanicum put down a small rebellion by senior tech-priests, the Fabricator-General of Mars and the Emperor signed the Treaty of Mars, allying the two empires, guaranteeing the sovereignty of each. In return for supplying the Imperium with war machines and servicing the technology of the Imperium, any and all STC technology found by the Imperium would be donated to the Mechanicum.

This is the link

Very interesting, obviously I should have given a bit more attention to those strange creatures that hover around the plasma cores. I just wonder why this not unimportant bit of info was not communicated in the FFG books. From the background there, the Adeptus Mechanicus is quite clearly considered one of the many vassals rather then an ally. One of the most powerful vassals, probably even the most powerful, but they still describe it as one of the parts.

Sadly enough, the lexicanum had no notes on where they got this information. Do you have perhaps any idea where this is contained? As this is, well, rather big, and gives vast power to the Adeptus Mechanicus. So I'd like to know all there is about this thorny question.

FvR

In point of fact the Mechnaicus 'have' vast power, and always have had vast power. The Emperor needed them. For to take what they had to supply his armies would have meant another crusade within a crusade which he might NOT have won.

The power of the Adeptus Mechanicus is without doubt. But many of the powers in the Empire have enormous clout. This does explain however why the Adeptus Mechanicus was not so effectively muzzled as the Adeptus Astartes after the Horus Heresy.

What interests me now mostly is the exact current position of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Has this legal position developed in the 10,000 years of the Imperiums existence? Or do they still have this legal charter that allows them a unique (well, of course many of the faction are unique) position in the Empire of Man.

I suppose this might be worth its own thread.

FvR