Hi all

I have been wondering if anyone knows of any Inquisitors who hold the Pariah Gene?

It seems to me that a Herecticus Inquisitor who would possess this trait would be invaluable if it came to hunting down rouge psykers, sorcerers and warpspawned mutants. An Untouchable Malleus Inquisitor would become the perfect weapon against daemons, their very presence causing the warp creatures to cling to reality, even an Untouchable Xenos Inquisitor would find it useful when up against Genestealers (disrupting the Hive Mind's network) or blocking meddling Eldar Seer's mind probes.

With such possibilities for a powerful Inquisitor regardless of their Ordo, how come this has not occurred before? (Either in Canon or any posts which I have read). I know that the Inquisitor who will be leading my group will secretly be an Untouchable.

RougeSquire Out

Flaminpiglet said:

Probably because most untouchables dont have the social skills to achieve the necessary connections to achieve inquisitorhood and the fact that the inquisition/assassin department are more likely the use them to create culexes assassins.

But I could happen. The same goes for untouchable sisters of battle, tech priests and even space marines (yes, I imagine its possible). And to that end, since the pariah gene is a human mutation, it could occur in a ratling or ogryn or mutant or $&V@+ (if they still existed).

Not sure why it hasnt happened yet in fluff, canon or posted as a RPG event, but it could.

Untouchables are usually stuck in a vicious circle when it comes to social skills. The normal instinctual responses of most people to their mere presence are unease and dislike. First impressions are bad and usually stay that way. Because very few if any people give an untouchable much chance to ingratiate themselves, untouchables are less likely to to learn much in the way of social skills. Which means they leave an even worse impression, and so on and so on. Thus, most untouchables are simply not going to be able to integrate themselves into the upper echelons of an organisation because they lack the social skills, contacts and trust of others.

Now there are going to be exceptions. Some untouchables are going to be lucky or savvy enough to find a way to compensate for the effect their mere presence has on others. A really sociable (or bootlicking) untouchable may be trusted sufficiently by their superiors to rise in the inquisitorial hierarchy. I find the idea of one reaching inquisitor level unlikely but not totally impossible. They'd be in a tiny minority if they do exist, possibly of one, for the reasons I've already described.

Peacekeeper_b said:

A SoB can NEVER have the pariah gene because it would negate any faith talents!

But an untouchable Inquisitor is quiet possible. Most likely this must be someone who has come into position not through social skills and clever manipulation but for showing results to his mentor (sending lots of Daemons back to the warp). This will be a quiet Daemon Hunter like Salomon Kane.

Results are fine and all and such a person could well rise through the ranks through sheer merit. But it's far more likely more well connected and socialable individuals will rise faster and higher than they can and not necessarily with the same quality and quantity of fine work. I could see many untouchables rising to "respected servant" status and no further.

Kain McDogal and I are of the same mind.

I had imagined that the Untouchable Inquisitor would have had to shoulder almost everything fighting an uphill battle all the while. I would imagine that they would be martially inclined, distant, methodical and fanatically driven. Perhaps they performed an act of the impossible on the field of battle? Perhaps they saved the life of an already fully fledged Inquisitor from a warp-based threat? Or perhaps they licked a lot of boot

Mechanic wise, the penalties for social interaction for Untouchables would make a becoming an Inquisitor through Ascension Packages very unlikely (if not impossible considering the peer talents). Fluff wise (my favourite type) Many Inquisitors are incredibly disliked by their "allies" and command through intimidation and sheer force of office. I see no reason not for an Untouchable Inquisitor to command in such a way. Despised by all they command, yet the results they yield are unquestioned.

As a side note, I recall a certain "Pariah Blocking" technology in the Ravenor Novels. Ravenor's Untouchable acolyte utilized it to more or less "turn off" his unnatural presence (I think it was implanted similar to a psy-blocker, yet activated via an external switch). It would not seem unreasonable that an Untouchable Inquisitor would come into possession of one of these devices. Although this would not contribute to their rise to Inquisitor status, once it was achieved, using the Untouchable Blocker would allow for the Untouchable Inquisitor to command a small amount of social power (despite any nasty behaviours learned during the years of being an outcast.)

RougeSquire Out

I'd concur that it would be possible in principle but pretty much impossible in practice. It's hard to get anywhere if everyone just hates you.

Gaining the rank of Inquisitor is about politics and social ability as well as merit. It'd be like having a President of the US with severe Ashburger's Syndrome, chronic bad breath and BO, a face like a bag full of spanners, and no redeeming social skills.

I would think that it is just more of a numbers thing, ie to be an untouchable is like what one in ten- twenty billion, and the people with the charistics to make a successful Inquisitor is at least the same odds, and even then they might not ever get the oppertunity.

So as a PC why the hell not just understand that your like a one in a trillion fluke.

Siranui said:

My reading of Eisenthorn leads me to the following beliefs:

Inquisitors are probably going to be aware of the nature of an untouchable and their issues with social interaction. If that person nevertheless possesses the right traits to be an effective inquisitor, they're going to be able to ignore that natural reaction in order to work with that untouchable.

Getting promoted when people flat-out hate you instinctually is one thing. Getting promoted by people who KNOW that their instincts are leading them astray, as would undoubtedly be the case for any Inquisitor with the sort of rank and standing required to grant Inquisitorial rank... different story, I'd think.

Inquisitors do not need to be anything even CLOSE to charming, or even socially palatable. That will depend entirely on MO, and it would take a really, really stupid untouchable to make social interaction his go-to MO.

Flaminpiglet said:

As much as I love Dan Abnett's stuff, he does tend to play a bit fast and loose with canon at times (a servitor pilot who is vocally fearful for their life? perhaps not). The background on pariahs tends towards them having an absence of a soul. This could be incorrect, and they have an "anti-soul" of sorts. In the case of the former, how can a blocking device help with a lack of something? Something to consider.

Decessor said:

If souls are a result of biological processes, it could be a technological "artificial soulstuff" void filler. Absence of a soul doesn't make much sense anyway - A rock won't have shiit for soul, but I can still lift it with the warp.

Nulls, Blanks, Pariahs, Untouchables...whatever you want to call them:

YES! They can be very useful depending on the circumstances. IMO, I believe a PC Null could become an Inquisitor despite the drawbacks of the package. Or course working with Imperial Psykers of any kind would prove extremely difficult. This would include NPC Navigators and Astropaths as well as their respective organizations if knowledge of this Inquisitor's condition got around.

As far as keeping it a secret...that is a whole nuther can of worms. Unless you employ some kind of non-Imperial teknology, I can't see that being possible. The teknical tools needed to hide that kind of thing and project a "normal" aura into the Warp would have to come from an Archeotech, Xeno or (most likely) a Hereteknical source. (please note I have not read the Ravenor Novels)

And Also:

I seem to find it strange that no one has mentioned that there might be those within the Imperium WHO SEEK OUT AND PURGE THE UNNATURAL ABOMINATIONS KNOWN AS UNTOUCHABLES . Yeah...aren't those the guys we render into Psycannon Bolts whenever we find them?

Though if you want to get REALLY Radical, maybe you can find a way to create more nulls using proscribed teknology. Then you could make a Grand_Army_of_Untouchables!!! ...or at least a strike team...

There are technological devices that can block and nullify Psi powers, so why not one that can, at the least, dampen a magnetic field like force surrounding an individual.

In effect the Untouchable dampener device could actually be a device that causes a thinning of the warp around a subject, allowing more warp energy to cross over and thus normalizing the space around a Null, or a Weaken Veil effect around a normal person, and worse around a psyker.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I like this idea. It would make these "Limiter" devices very dangerous for psykers to posess, somewhat balancing out their utility value with a risk when not actually in the possession of an untouchable. Nice one.

Kain McDogal said:

Quite incorrect. The talent of pure faith and other faith talents are an aspect of being a sister of battle, not a requirement of being a sister of battle.

And I quote from Radicals' Handbook page 38 "Career: Any Career, but you may not possess a Psy Rating." The same basic statement is made in Disciples of the Dark Gods.

In truth, the only ones who cannot be untouchable would be psykers.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Sorry to correct you, but the next sentence after your quote reads: "Special: May have no other package, talent, trait, or similar that grants psychic, FAITH or warp-based powers or abilities, both during creation or later development."

And in the black box next to it: "An untouchable may not for example, under any normal circumstances enter into a dark pact with a warp entity or receive the benefits of beneficial psychic powers, sorcery or TRUE FAITH. They may not learrn sorcery or take any talents associated with it and may not have FAITH TALENTS."

Because every SoB hasPure Faith as a starting talent she can't be an untouchable. No faith talent no SoB!

Kain McDogal said:

Wrong again. (In a friendly tone). They would just lose the Pure Faith talent.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I guess I'm not and you are. She will be an untouchable by birth first, so without the abilitiy to learn Faith Talents she can never become a SoB later. She can't lose something which she doesn't have in the first place.

I suppose it would come down to how you'd play it.

Technically speaking, there is no " faith meter " that would measure a progena's ability to conform to a certain standard. From this perspective, it would seem feasible to create an Untouchable SoB and simply not grant her the Pure Faith talent upon character creation, even if this would go against the letter of the RAW (in short, it depends on how you think about P&P rules > canon or the other way around).

On the other hand, the fluff about the AS and the Schola comes with other limitations. Apart from a Blank's social issues, which may very well prevent her from "fitting in" and thus eliminate her from consideration for novitiate, I am under the impression that the Schola Progenium also conducts genetic screenings, and as Untouchability can apparently be physically detected in form of the Pariah gene, the progena would soon find herself transferred to the Officio Assassinorum (-> Culexus Temple) or the Inquisition to exploit her projections to the fullest.

Official reply from Mack Martin.

Re: Fantasy Flight Games [Rules Questions] - Dark HeresyWednesday, June 22, 2011 11:58 AM
From: "Mack Martin" <[email protected]>Add sender to ContactsTo: [email protected] Peacekeeper_B,

You can indeed be an untouchable career with faith talents. For instance, you could be an Untouchable Sister of Battle. However you wouldn't be able to purchase any of the Faith talents that are available to it. Honestly, that's not a bad option. Faith Talents can have a pretty restricted use (especially if you find yourself burning Faith points), simply being an Untouchable might be a viable option for a lot of games.

Technically, you can play any career as an Untouchable, you just can't have a Psy Rating or Faith talents. Theoretically, I'd even allow a player to be an Untouchable Psyker in my personal games, if they really wanted too... they would just be a terrible, what with no Psy Rating or powers.

I hope this helps!

Its like when you take an alternate career rank at rank 1 taht changes your starting skills/talents. You replace Pure Faith with Untouchable.

I find it hard to believe that every single SOB has pure faith. Maybe they are faithful, maybe they beliee strongly, but that every single one of them manifests the Emperor's righteous aura and so forth is unlikely. In the end, most are people like everyone else, zealots perhaps. But still rather mundane. As a group I believe they feed of each others faith and devotion, zealotry and frenzy, like fanatics and religious psychopaths and can do amazing feats based on this psychological effect, supported somewhat by a few who are divinely inspired.

Besids, the Adepta Sororitas Honour Guard on page 247 of Ascension do not have any fate points to use on faith talents, and for that matter, dont even have pure faith! While the named character Sister in that same book, on that same page, does have it. That implies to me that only spectacular individuals actually have Pure Faith, even in the sisters of battle. Though Unshakeable Faith, Nerves of Steel and Resistance (Fear) with a WP of 40 may go a long way to simulate a strong sense of divine faith.

Meaning, there are other skills, talents and characteristics beside Pure Faith that can be used to measure an individual's extreme faith in the Emperor. Not all of them are level 1 clerics waiting for their first D&D spell at leave 2 (old reference to the slower spell progression of clerics in OD&D of the 70s/80s).

Personally, I would say that Pure Faith as a standard does fit as a result of this lifestyle - only the Faith Talents are a matter of the individual's outstanding "grade" of zeal and conviction, and these have to be purchased individually. That's why I am advocating for Pure Faith as possible elite advances for other careers whilst being much more strict when it comes to awarding actual Faith Talents (not that I like how they currently work in the P&P, anyways).

In general, I definitively agree about the "group effect", though I draw a much stronger line between Pure Faith and the actual "Miracles".

This opinion is also inspired from the tabletop with its Shield of Faith (basically the TT equivalent to Pure Faith) as a general AS rule (similar to the Marines' ATSKNF), whereas Acts of Faith required Veterans as "spiritual guides" to be activated at all: The elite units (Celestians, Seraphim, Commanders) had them by default, whereas a squad of normal Sisters had to upgrade their leader to Veteran status to qualify.
It just seems to be something you pick up over the years and decades, provided you survive long enough and display sufficient zeal and prowess to rise through the ranks. Basically "the next level" of Pure Faith, introducing an additional layer to mark the truly inspired from the merely indoctrinated.

Yes, there are other ways to sort-of simulate this with other traits, but that goes for a lot of other things in the RPG as well. Pure Faith merely combines several existing effects in a single talent. If one were to trim the P&P rules down to the bare minimum, this would not be the first area where I'd start - though its inclusion would still have merit.

No one would have chosen to play a SoB without Faith Talents but with the untouchable trait under the pre-BoM rules. But now you get an untouchable, power armoured battle maiden with a Bolter at Rank 1.

This sounds like munchkin to me and I would never allow it in one of my own games.

Kain McDogal said:

Neither would I. I wouldnt let a BoM SoB in my games either. Im not saying its a fair or balanced option, I was just saying that there is no reason to say there couldnt be a untouchable Sister of Battle. It would make for good fluff, not necessarily a good RPG character. Same with powerful psyker SoB (as seen in Demon Fudge) using the Nascent Psyker rules.

I also dont think PCs should ever be Space Marines (especially Grey Knights) and so forth. And I get sick to my stomach when the topic of Melee Specialist Arch Militant in Rogue Trader all hinges on going mutant and getting Unnatural Strength. If the game has one flaw, its that actual skill means little over the bonuses of high stats.

Overall, I defend and support your statement of not letting this little munchkin into the game. But the very way the game is set up (leveling up means getting bigger guns) leads to a munchkin enviroment.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I agree with you here, but to avoid munchkin the GM has to rule common sense and should find any plausible reason to explain this instead of simply saying "no" to the player.