We are just planning up our first Rogue Trader game, and I chose to play an arch-militant. My plan was go melee with a poweraxe and carry a shield off-hand to deal with parries; which would eventually be upgraded to a powersword.

However, the more I read of the system, the less am I convinced thats a really good idea. WS costs more than BS, and hitting once for 1d10+14 at P7, while sounding nice, probably isn't better than a Stormbolter on full auto landing 4 hits - or rather, 8 - at 1d10+7 P5 each, not to mention tearing. Plus, melee talents are gained significantly later, or aren't gained at all, or demand actions where you are giving up parry.

Could someone maybe share their experiences on whether melee militants work well, and if so, how? At the moment, it just seems like an inferior option to me, sadly.

Just ask your GM to switch the XP costs of your BS and WS advances around. I don't have my books handy, but I'm sure how many melee talents Arch-Militant has available in its Advance Scheme. A dearth of those would make playing a melee oriented Arch-Militant difficult.

Though she's usually rather agreeable about adjustments, we'd all prefer sticking to the rules as written for now, since it's a new system. Thus, my question about the viability.

There is always the option to take the alternate career rank 'Gland Warrior' from 'Into the Storm'. This gives you the chance to focus on melee fighting with your arch militant.

Friedrich van Riebeeck, Navigator Primus, Heart of the Void

So, do I understand correctly that without alternate options or changes its rather subpar?

Not necessarily- sure the WS increases cost more, but you're also getting cheap S increases. And since you always add your SB to a melee hit's damage (sometimes multiples thereof), you're going to take stuff down. Add in the relative ease of acquiring decent armour, and melee becomes more attractive.

Admittedly, the position of the melee talents on the advance charts means that a melee Arch-Militant is (barring alternate ranks and elite advances) only really going to come into their own in the late game, but even without that they can be devastating.

You must also be tough enough to survive to get close in melee against many oponents impressive firepower and ability to detect things. There are few elements of stealth and none for unnatural speed and in semi and open spaces many of the enemies the archmilitant(even with power armor and force field) will encounter will shred you before you will be able to engage in melee.

Also BS is neet to have for firing the ships weapons for ship combat.

Playing an melee oriented Archmilitant is diffacult at first glance, but it can be done. Mutations are a decent way to do it, in all actuality. Hideous Stength and Feels No Pain are (relatively) covert mutations that automatically put you on a good path for melee effectiveness. unnatural strength x2, an extra five wounds, and the Iron Jaw Talent can make you a nightmare when you take to beating or tearing your enemies to death. Ambidextrous lets you ignore offhand penalties for wielding two weapons, which can make you one hell of a berserker when you combine it with Two Weapon Wielder later on. take Autosanguine as an elite advance early on to increase your survivability. A friend of mine found a way to turn Unremarkable into a very effective tool of slaughter by (with great roleplaying and consent on part of the GM) appearing as an innocent bystander and got "caught up" in the charge of the pirates we were facing down in Footfall. when the the pirates took cover behind some barells, the same barrels our archmilitant was hiding behind, he waited for them to start reloading before laying into them with his thunderhammers. he also had a similar setup to whay i described above, so you can picture the carnage.

so as you can see, melee archmilitants can be done, but you have to get creative.

Thats assuming I can get Hideous Strength though - Tainted only allows a choice up to 74 by spending XP, and I'm not particularily keen on relying on sheer luck there.I did plan on taking the Brute mutation, but thats about it. Elite advances are something I don't take for granted either.

I see that a Rank 8 arch-militant is probably viable in melee. But even dual-wielding I can't get until Rank 6. And even once I do; ranged options such as dual-wielding a pair of storm bolters still seem superior; and melters get through armour just as well as melee.

All in all, the answers here seem to confirm my thoughts... unless looking elsewhere, its subpar. I'll ponder about going ranged or switching career.

Unnatural Origin (False-Man) and Tainted (Mutant) will get you most everything Gillam mentioned since I too am playing a melee focused arch-militant I would agree the talents mentioned are nice. If you go with mutant I suggest paying the xp to choose a selection rather than rolling blind (this also allows you to pick ravaged body and roll 1d5 mutations if you want and your gm allows it).

My character used to be a merc and is from a fortress world who's chief export is mercenaries. This tidbit granted my character unnatural strength and toughness since his planet of origin is one the GM had worked up and he liked the character concept I presented.

Another good origin option is The Hand of War as you get a free weapon training talent of your choice which is nice if you plan on starting out with an exotic weapon (forearm powerblade for parries).

If you're not keen on swapping progressions or asking your gm about it then yeah its going to cost a bit more than bs to advance. But, one thing the arch-militant has that no one else does is the cheapest stat advances possible for building a melee focused character. None of your key stats are above the 100/250 advance progression WS 250, S 100, T 250, and Ag 100.

Weapon Skill affects your ability to hit and parry. Strength affects how much gear you can carry and how much damage is added to your melee attacks. Toughness affects how much gear you can carry, how many wounds you have (how much damage you can take), and how many points of damage you can ignore. Agility affects speed (gap closing), dodge, initiative, and a slew of other useful skills.

As far as guns vs melee look at it like this. Depending on the type of game your gm is running its is totally possible to be immune to most small arms fire you're likely to come up against (wear carapace or better and have a decent toughness bonus). All you have to do is be able to soak around 10 points. As soon as you throw armour penetrating ranged weapons into the mix the amount you need to soak goes up. However, a character engaging in melee forces their opponent into melee combat (i.e. they can't keep shooting you) one can typically do more damage versus a goon in melee than they can especially if all they are carrying are guns.

Running also puts range combatants at a -20 penalty to hit you which makes it advantageous to close the gap and enter into melee.

Early game I would say they are about equal with serious range weapons winning out mid to late game when skills are higher, and dos account for more damage (the damage they can pump out is massive and ammo is the only limiting factor). The only big talent the arch-militant is missing is lightning-attack (they only get swift-attack at rank 8 and two-weapon wielder (melee) was added to rank 6 in the errata).

The combat style you are likely to favor until you get two-weapon wielder (melee) is melee and pistol (or basic with a pistol grip). As long as your character is ambidextrous he can carry two weapons and attack with one per round without penalty. This will let you run between cover if you can find it then shoot until you can charge and enter melee. Or any combination there of including landing a killing blow on a goon in one round, and using a called shot to shoot another goon in the head the next.

In the end it comes down to style I think if you want to go melee be sure you work out an build that 'feels' right to you. If you have a character concept in mind I say go with it. Who cares if its a 'good' build. My arch-militant may love his powerfist and chainglaive, but that doesn't stop him from carrying twin bolt pistols and a heavy bolter around with him. It also isn't going to stop him from picking up talents like dual shot.

Oh, almost forgot. If you have another player that you can team up with you both can pick up double team for an additional +20 when ganging up for a total +30 to WS tests against the target. That means an all out attack (+20 WS) when ganging up with double team (+30 WS), and wielding best quality melee weapons (+10 WS) will have you rolling against a target of 100 with as little as a 40 WS.

As long as you have the initiative and you are likely to kill the target all out attacks are pretty safe.

Want to try playing twin assassins that do "everything" together? Hmm... ideas.

Oh and as for the hideous strength you could get best synthetic muscle grafts with a -10 to agility based tests. Whether or not you could start with them would be up to the gm and how they plan on handling your starting acquisitions.

*blinks* I completely missed the muscle grafts. Yes, good-quality ones are within the free acquisition option. It would easily be explained into my story, too. I'll have to give up the subskin armour, but that can be added later - Toughness 60 and enforcer carapace still nets a soak of 11.

Any way in the core rules to gain Unnatural Toughness later on?

Mutations or malygrisian bioforging if your GM allows that.

Gland Warrior would be a must, even without unnatural toughness that just rocks.

Or you could find a genetor and get yourself regeneration. That's always a nice thing to have :-)

Also you probably want a flip belt (need pilot personal) or a grav-chute. Especially the latter is insanely powerfull for any melee character.

Personally i prefer my genetor melee specialist to an arch-militant one. But that's mainly because it's so friggin cool to play with all the mutations (sonar sense rocks, as does regeneration, and he got brute + aberration to start with so once i'm done he'll have toughness 100) :-D Not to mention that he's also usefull outside combat with all the skills he has

Badlapje said:

Does the arch militant can get the pilot personal skill?

Why grav chute(1minute hover,slow descent,1h power supply a jump pack is better) is better than flip-belt(Hover(6) and Ag+20)?

For the gland warrior I saw that adds Lostok Augmentation Trait. What that trait does?

I actually mistyped, i ment the Grav-Flux Harness from Disciples of the Dark Gods.

Lo-Stock Augmentation adds new organs and glands. It duplicates the effects of a respirator, makes them immune to most toxins (including the toxic weapon quality). The glands act as injectors with Frenzon, Slaught, Stimm and Spur + they filter out all negative effects. Using a gland is a free action, but you need to pass a willpower +20 test for each dosage. If you fail that particular gland stops working for 1d5 days.

Badlapje said:

Page and book for Lo-stack augmentation?

For a BS archmilitant what do you recommend?

EDIT

What is the rarity of Grav flux harness and how do you acquire one?

thor2006 said:

Lo-stock augmentation is p. 84 of Into the Storm.

Grav Flux Harness is an item from Disciples of the Dark Gods (p. 48) and as such it has no rarity listed. It's an item from the logicians though certain assassin cults also work with it. As such i'd definitely rate it at a minimum of Extremely Rare but probably better is Near Unique.

For a BS archmilitant if you want optimal stats on BS go with Fotress World, Stubjack, Crusade (Call to war), Darkness (Dark Secret), whatever. If you can convince your GM to let you trade in the redundant talent you get from fortress world (basic weapon training las or sp) for 100 extra xp then you can choose Exhileration (The Thrill of war) for your motivation.

If you do that the first four you'll get +21 BS. Meaning if you either roll very good or use point buy you can end up with a total of 71 BS before you have bought any advances. If you also get the Motivation i suggest after a deal with your GM then that'll be 74 BS before buying advances. Advances can net you another +20 relatively cheap so there'll honestly be no reason for you to miss ever. Especially not with your chosen weapon class which gives you another +10 on top of that.

Add in equipment like: motion predictor, red dotter, omniscope and you're pretty much set. The AM career should have all the good talents you need, the vast majority you'll get by rank 5.

A few options can give you the starting WS modifiers and what not you may desire. For example, Stubjack gives you +5 WS, one of the new alternate origin path modifiers (Darkness, dark secret I believe) gives you +6 to characteristic of choice so you can start with +11 to WS for around 250 XP. Another option is Crusade (Warrior) which also presents +5 WS for like 200XP. Im not sure if all of them are compatible, I will look in a second, but that would be a starting +16 to WS for 450 XP at Rank 1. You would have no additional starting skills and what not with only 50 XP starting at Rank 1, but shortly you could amass some close combat talents.

As a arch militant you start with Dodge, Melee Weapon Training Universal and Sound Constitution.With the Pride Motivation you gain +3 Toughness and a heirloom with any luck its a best quality chainsword.

The problem I have with your thoughts and the recommendations above is it all seems to be stat based and not character based. If you build a rank 1 Arch Militant with a decent Agility, WS and what not from the start, pick gear to fit that, pick skills and talents where you can to fit that and role play a melee combat specialist I can think of no reason why your elite advances shouldnt be fairly cheap and reasonable. It shouldnt be about what weapon hits the most or damages the most but about what the character is and does.

If you really need to go by the book and RAW use page 34 of RT (Dark Heresy Characters and Rogue Trader sidebar) and see if the GM will let you build a 5000XP DH close combat character.

Homeworld: By the rules you have to take Death World, Void Born, or Forge World (adding Frontier World, Footfaller or Fortress World from Into the Storm) unless allowed to use a "free" pick or row while using the Origin path.

Birthright: Stubjack (Quick Draw Talent, Intimidate, +5 to WS or BS, -5 Fel, 1d5 insanity) Rogue Trader page 25

Lure of the Void: Crusader [Warrior] (cost 250XP, +5 WS, +5 T or +5 Ag, -5 Fellowship, Meditation) Into the Storm page 21

Trials and Travails: Darkness [Dark Secret] (cost 200xp, +6 Characteristic of choice, dark secret, 1d5 insanity) Into the Storm page 24

Motivation: Endurance (+1 Wound) or Fortune (+1 Fate Point) if following flow chart rules. If you are allowed one "jump" or "free" path options take Pride (+3 Toughness and Heirloom object, hopefully Best craftsman chainsword) or Prestige (Talented (take Dodge)) Rogue Trader pages 29-30.

Career: Arch Militant

With the above choices you are adding +16 to your WS, -10 from Fellowship, +2d5 Insanity. AMongst other modifiers. It will cost you 450 XP, meaning after the first adventure you can probably buy your first advance to WS from Arch Militant. With a start WS of 25+2d10, on average you will have a WS of (25+11+16=) 52. So possibly upwards to 60 within the first adventure or so. Thats better then most rank 1 deathwatch space marines.

Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done about the available melee talents at the low ranks, with RAW.

Pretty sure beeing a mutant has it's downsides...

Isidro

isidro said:

The main downside of being a mutant is being a mutant.

It really is core rules only for the time, a few things that don't exist within aside (such as vehicle stats). It will likely change in the future once all of us get a grip on the system.

At the time, I'm planning as follows: Death World, Scavenger, Tainted (Brute mutation for 10 ST/TO), Press-ganged, Endurance. It nets stats of WS45, ST50 and TO60. Starting acquisition are good-quality muscle grafts for unnatural strength (x2).

The press-ganged is primarily to get Command before rank 3, and my fellowship is 40 as well. Could be changed for optimization, but I dont want to for numerous reasons.

While I could optimize for WS instead, I'd have to give up some severe stat-advances; and especially the Brute mutation and Death World are excellent for pushing up damage and resilience. A soak of 11 with carapace and toughness, 20 wounds and a total of +12 to any melee damage is nothing to sneeze at; and stuff like Jaded and fear resistance are useful as well. With advances, specialisation and a best quality melee weapon it will eventually be an 85, and since you don't get more hits from DoS I don't think I need that much more.

I'm more worried about the talents - especially ways for additional attacks - and it severely underperforming compared to a ranged build

You have to get best for unnatural strength unless it was errata which i don't think it was good only nets +1 SB I believe.

Good quality provides -10 agility and Unnatural Strength (x2) as per core.

So either it was corrected in a reprint and not errata, you are mistaken, or my book is just wrong cause it states the following and I quote:

RT Core Rules pg. 151

"Synthetic Muscle Grafts

Vat-grown muscle tissue, hyperdense and augmented with flakweave, is implanted into existing muscle groups to increase their strength. Users gain +1 to their Strength Bonus for a normal implantation. Best-Craftsmanship grafts will grant the Unnatural Strength (x2) Trait but also impose a -10 penalty to any Agility Test due to the misshapen nature of the body."

Good is never even mentioned in the paragraph. Do they exist in another source book somewhere with different stats that you are quoting? If so please let me know as I am interested.

Though the description of alot of cybernetics are vague and allow for the GM to fluff 'em up one would expect good implants to offer something of value between common and best in this instance. Perhaps Good would grant +4SB that would effectively double an average 4SB without going into unnatural bonuses also it wouldn't continue to scale since if you later picked up something that doubled your SB it would be applied after SBx2 +4SB.

Edit

A quick search of the forum has revealed some people seem to think one can use the sidebar stating the difference between good and best quality implants is one of sophistication resulting in a more ostentatious appearance. Though this might be true when upgrading from good to best I don't think where an example of Best quality is given it should be applied in the reverse; essentially getting something for nothing.

So, using the same sidebar as a reference I would say the good quality gains nothing over the common other than cosmetic benefits i.e. a normal implantation (Common) would show obvious signs of augmentation where as a (Good) would be physically unnoticeable, and Best would demonstrate an ostentatious display of augmentation which accounts for the unnatural strength x2 trait and -10 to agility tests since the person chose to go above and beyond.

Thats interesting. I have the german book, and that one says "good" quality, not best.