Force Barrage states:

"This power functions as Force Bolt except you create one bolt per point of your Willpower Bonus. You may fire each bolt when you manifest this power.

Overbleed: For every 5 points by which you exceed the power's threshold, you generate an additional bolt."

Because each one functions just like the Force Bolt power, does that mean it gets the benefit of Overbleeding that power as well? So if you Overbleed when casting Force Barrage, you would get both of the Overbleed effects?

It has been estabilished that force barrage does not gain additional damage with overbleed. Understand that statement so that force barrage's single shot's appearance/nature is the same as force bolt. If it would gain additional damage with overbleed, it would be stated and power would have 2 differend overbleeds.

Where has it been established? I can not see any ruling on the forums one way or another.

I previously interperated the power as the OP did.

Force Barrage says it functions like Force Bolt and Force Bolt generates a extra point of damage for every 5 points you exceed the threshold by. Force Barrage does not have to state the Force Bolts' overbleed effect in its own rules because the Force Barrage rules have already told you to use Force Bolts rules which includes the extra damage overbleed.

So do you take it to mean that you can select weather to spend over bleed on increasing the damage OR increasing the number of bolts?

Or is this completely unique in that it counts overbleed twice with two separate effects?

OR.. more sensibly overbleed just adds extra basic bolts because that's all it says overbleed does and would say if either of the above was true? That's what I think is more likely, it's miss-leading I know.

I would say it is like Bio-lightning or Sculpt Flame which have multiple overbleed effects that can be activated at the same time.

The power does WB number of attacks which do d10+WB damage with no pen. At the levels where you can get off 8 shots (all of which need to hit seperately) at d10+8 ect enemies have AP and TB through the roof and enemy psykers can remove overbleed effects, being able to up the damage as well as the number of shots is the only thing that keeps this power worth it.

if i was to allow the overbleed from both effects it would be to increase the damage from only 1 bolt

say you have 60+ WP so you get 6WB - with force barrage you'd get 6 bolts (do you have to test WP for each one to see if it hits?) and because your an amazing psyker you got 51 power roll (overbleed 30) so you have 6 lots of 5 to spend so you could either add 6 dmg to one bolt or any combination (every combination of using it for solely more dmg gives you 6 more dmg) or you could do 6 more bolts - which would you choose 6d10+42 or 12d10+72?

basically using it this way it would be stupid to use the overbleed for the force bolt ay you get way more dmg from another bolt

Each shot of Force Barrage is resolved seperately and each requires a WP check to hit.

It's also worth remembering that you can not combine hits to do for example a 6d10+36 (WB 5 with a level of overbleed) if all attacks hit, instead you would have to resolve 6 1d10+6 attacks individually, each of which is reduced by TB and AP.

Because each bolt has to hit seperately and the fact that the power has no Pen whereas enemy TB and Pen and number of wounds shoot up especially in the higher ranks I have no problem allowing the power and number of shots going up with overbleed.

The power is already limited to one target by its wording so if its damage capacity does not increase as a player levels up its just not worth taking when powers like Telekinentic Blade that do more damage and have better synergy with combat talents exist within the same discipline for a lower threshold.

as it is atm it seems to be a worse version of full auto from a gun with no pen - it does however scale with lvl: at rank 3 the WP will be 50-59 usually giving you 5 bolts of 1d10+5 each with 50-59% chance of hitting with some moderate overbleed giving you more hits, at rank 7-8 your WP will be 60-70 giving 6-7 hits each of 1d10+6or7 each with 60-70% chance of hitting with much higher overbleed (potentially 40+ giving you 8 extra shots) - if you however want to use psyker powers for dmging targets with high soak you need to go with psychic blade or better yet pyromancy or biomancy - you can't expect bolts of air to have a high penetration value - if you want high pen with telekinetics you use psychic blade with pen of 2xWB as its a molecule thick blade - you have there potentially the highest dmg value and pen value of any melee weapon in the game

psyker powers aren't meant for solely dmg - u can screw up your enemies with other things from telekenetics like stopping bullets (catch projectiles), exploding a grenade in their holster (precision telekinesis), knock them over and unconscious (push) and make your soak much higher (telekinetic shield)

dharkus said:

I think you mean insignificantly higher, 1 point of AP is a terrible pay of for a power with a threshold of 21 and a -4 to your other power rolls.

Banjulhu said:

I agree the power is underwhelming, though if you get good rolls, the extra AP could be 2 or 3, maybe 4 if you're willing to risk the power roll dice (or are Ascension level and can Fetter).

Personally, I much prefer Biomancy's Flesh of Iron power, as the Toughness Bonus is a better form of soak (fewer things can ignore it) and it provides a higher bonus, even if you've Mastered telekinesis and not Biomancy. The loss of a single point to Agility Bonus is annoying, but well worth the extra protection.

Well, telekinetic shield needs to be errated somehow, as it is now I wouldn't take it except for discipline mastery (but we've got new TK power in DotDG so I wouldn't taki it at all). Force Barrage becomes overwhelning in ascension when you get Unnatural Willpower and with luck can destroy tanks and greater deamons in one round but I think there is already another thread about it.

ShadowRay said:

I think greater daemon killing would be more easily achieved using a psychic blade along side unatural willpower, a Templar Calix with a WP of 70 (which is easily doable before ascension) can do 3 d10+16 at pen 14 attacks with a reroll to hit (blademaster works as the psychic blade counts as a sword) with just their normal willpower, all of which can become un-evadable with a +30 to hit using the a ghost in the warp trait. With unarural wilpower x2 the damage becomes 1d10+30 pen 28 and will power x3 becomes 1d10+44 pen 42.

True, it all depends which career path you are on and whether or not you want to get close to greater daemon. Most of unnatural attributes are broken anyway. But there must be something very rewarding in splashing greater deamons on the wall with one atack; I have yet to experience it.

The advantage to the Force Barrage against a grater daemon is that most dont have armour so pen is irrelevent and you dont have to get close to it and suffer from daemonic presence (DP) which reduces your hit chance, however you can side step DP using the talent that allows you to count your corruption points as zero for a minute and the sacred insense from IH that allows corruption point 10 or less characters ignore DP. A bit conveluted yes but the talent is a no brainer and the sacred insense is pretty much an auto include for any serious daemon hunting psykers of a level where they will come up against daemons with DP.

Banjulhu said:

A) Easy pre-ascension? 20 base + 20 max rolled +20 in advances still requires a combination of a lot of luck (sanctioning/divination), Void-born origins, and backgrounds like Living Nightmare. 60 is a much safer assumption, especially for a psyker that is doubling as a meleer

B) What is this "Ghost in the Warp" trait you're talking about? I don't recognize it. Where is it found?

C) Yeah, Psychic Blade, high willpower, and unnatural willpower is a nasty combination. Barring GM fiat, that's also an Ascension-only possibility... Rank 12 minimum, unless you're a psyker-Inquisitor, too. It also requires you to be in melee range, which means if you miss or don't manage to COMPLETELY remove every single wound of that Daemon, you now have a very pissed, hurt-by-those-flickering-candles-in-the-warp-they're-drawn-to, still fully functional Daemon. In melee range. With time to full attack.

D) This may merely be a common house rule, but I'd expect most will apply characteristic bonus multiplication in a way more similar to Deathwatch: x2 WPB becomes x3 if you also have Unnatural Willpower (x2), etc.

Give me a Daemonic Toughness ignoring barrage of nasty that doesn't require I be immediately proximate to my target any day. Sure, you're screwed if the Daemon shows up in armor, but that'll likely be a Khornate daemon anyway, at which point, you're screwed anyway - you really don't want to try to out melee a Khornate Daemon...

I would take on a Khornate daemon in combat with an ascended templar calix tooled for daemon hunting.

A. Yep. Easy. A Mind cleansed with the Living Nightmare package has a base of 30, will do their best to allocate their best roll to the stat taking it close to fifty with sanctioning and various divinations you can hit 56 and from their purchase the +20. A pre ascended psyker has potential WP of 76. 70 is very doable.

B.Ghost in the warp is one of the Primaris Psykers trait choices. Once per game session they can make their power leave no trace in the warp and make it have no visual or audibal compent, now because it cant be detected and it is not physically held or manipulted, hell it is not techinacaly a physical thing to begin with your openent will be unaware of it, if they are unaware of it they will br unaware of attacks made with it which means you get a +30 to hit and the attack is not dodgable. It makes an assassing with a power sword look like a boy scout with a toothpick

C. Combat psykers can pack dodge/parry improving low threshold powers (Precognition and Distort Vision stack wonderfully) making them far more defensible than your average assassin. If you get the charge on your enemy will struggle to hit you (powers plus hard target) and if they do, you parry followed by a counter attack with the unbloackble sword and then utilise assassin strike to get away from the rest of his attacks. Templar Calix: all the combat talents you will ever want, plus psychic powers to make them better.

D. For the case of calculating an unatural characteristic bonus, yes you increase the multiplier by a factor, but psychic blade damage is not actually based on a multiplier, for each point of WB a pysker has the sowrd does two points of damage on top of the 1d10 damage roll and has a pen twice the wielders WB. With the damage you are not doubling a double you are just adding two points of extra damage per point of WB.

Templar Calixs are over the top and will wipe the ground with oponents if allowed to fight how they want.

A) OK but we're slipping on to the "Munchkin Hammer bait" zone. Better assume a WP of 60+, which is very doable with normal characters, than use 70 which requires heavy optimization (and let's not be counting on the Divination, please, it makes no sense).

B) Here it's a matter of interpretation. The fact is, the Demon is unaware of your weapon alright. But I'm not really sure he'll let you come at him anyway. The bonus for being unaware of an attack means the target is unaware of the possibility of it...YMMV of course but I would find it silly that a Demon is not at list a bit careful when a human comes near him. Not that it's dangerous, but there are not that many humans who approach a Demon with good intentions. You could be a suicide bomber, for all he knows...

Of course, if you've role played the part of a cultist who wants to approach His Great Daemonhood, maybe you could get the "unaware" bonus. It's all a matter of context. But if the fight is on and all you have to back up your claim is the Trait, I as a GM would slap you with the Ascension book and tell you to knock it off.

C) No, the Assassin will still be a monstruous Dodge machine, especially in Ascension. Now I'm not saying Templar Calix isn't good at that kind of shenanigans. Templar Calix is OP-ly good. But I'd still say the Assassin is more reliable when it comes to surviving. Heck, he's got a shitload of Reactions (Vindicare speaking of course), and a sky high Dodge skill. Being better at it than him would require to be completely invincible.

D) Yeah but as Unusualsuspect said, it's a bit of a "house rule" to consider it another "multiplier" (remember, there are no Unnatural WP in DH core...). Doesn't really change the fact that it does silly damage anyway.

I mean, we agree on the fact that Primaris Psyker + Templar Calixis is crazily good, let's just not get fan boy-ish on that

Stormast said:

if you cant detect, see or hear the weapon or the attack happening at all I think you fulfil the requirements to be unaware of an attack where the game mechanics are concerned.

Yeah, totally.

"That guy is an enemy, I know that in this wretched Galaxy, anyone could wield some strange powers OR ancient relics OR I-don't-know-what OR he could be a Genestealer hybrid...But I'll let him approach me and get a shot at me without reacting. Cause, you know, what could possibly go wrong?"

All I'm saying is that it isn't completely obvious to get that situation, and clearly I wouldn't allow it just because of the Trait.

Stormast said:

The very perpose of the A Ghost in The Warp trait is to allow a psyker to use a pychic power once per game session so that it is completely undetectable, it is there so that a psyker can actually pull of a power without the target or anyone else around them knowing it is happenin. If that does not actually translate into an effect then the trait is a waste of time. So what if target looks at the psyker and thinks 'Hmm. I dont like the looks of them', it does nothing to help him defend himself against something he does not know is there at all.

That's where we can't agree, it seems.

I'm holding on to the fact that the Daemon is not totally blind and that even if you have no weapon in your hands, he's not gonna let you approach close enough to stab him with your psychic blade of doom, be it visible or not. But hey, whatever pleases you.

@Stormast: Ok what benefits would you give the player using "Ghost in the Warp" if say a psyker was attacking a Daemon. And lets say in a different situation that I have the Psychic Blade out and I'm hold a sword and a shield, seeing that you don't need a free hand to use the psychic blade, and I'm using "Ghost in the Warp" and fake attack with the real sword and actually attack with the psychic blade, it doesn't say but I picture the psychic sword being translucent like the Telekinetic Shield.

Why not?

What I was advocating wasn't to never give that possibility. I was just highlighting that it shouldn't be automatic. It should be something you "work" a little (with some role play) to get.

Juste because I can hide a weapon under my shirt doesn't mean I can get a clear shot of a mob boss...But if I smart talk him enough, I may have him off guard and head shoot him.

Do you make a death cultist work to get their bonus pen, or a crusader work to get their bonus to hit against their chosen enemy or do you make an inquisitor work to get his automatic pass on a Willpower test once per game?

No cause it's written like that in their rules.

The trait we're discussing here is a little bit different, as it does not say "you surprise an enemy", it says "one of your power goes unnoticed".

But I grow tired of arguing with you. You don't even want to hear what I have to say, so you know, as long as you're happy with it, go ahead. I'm just saying that automatically giving +30 to hit and unavoidable to one attack is dementedly broken, what's more when it's a Primaris - Templar Calix who wields it. And that I don't see how, thematically, RP-speaking, you would get that bonus without any kind of cleverness.