To avoid further derailing of Danigral's thread, I have started a new thread to discuss where that thread developed here instead.

The onus of discussion and promotion of CoC LCG does not simply lie in the hands of the consumer though.

For example, the only deck lists that FFG ever released for this game was at Arkham Nights last year in their event pamphlet. Not on this website to discuss but in their pamphlet for a single event that you had to attend. The only place I have ever seen this made available was on CardgameDB... after I transcribed it there.

Contrast this with the deck list articles released for games such as AgoT and W:I and you can quickly see that FFG themselves are partially to blame for the lack of discussion and promotion of this game as one example where FFG themselves could improve this game.

At the FFG Event center regionals it was unanimously agreed between Jim, Jeff and I that FFG need to do more than they are in order to make this game succeed. In fact, it is painfully obvious. One of the AgoT designers holds events weekly at the event center for AgoT and it is no small wonder why that game is so much more popular even if you do not take free publicity such as HBO shows into account.

I have faith in Damon's vision for the game, but I just hope that FFG offer him the tools to better help him accomplish his goals instead of throwing an increased workload and responsibility of another LCG as they did with Hata splitting dedication between CoC and W:I. (though to be honest, it was CoC that was the distraction and not W:I, which goes to show you how much energy and faith that FFG were willing to dedicate to this game at that time)

The community can only do so much without support to promote THEIR products.

Marius, Francesco and everyone else does as much as they can to promote CoC. Why cannot FFG, who are the ones who make money off of the work of others, cannot at least match the efforts if not exceed them?

This is not meant as a rant. I am just posting this to hopefully show people who may not already realize it that the lack of discussion is not just the community being lackadaisical, but the producers of this game itself being neglectful. I am done with giving them constructive criticism and holding their hand with kid gloves showing their folly. It's time for a harsher brand of love and that is a slap in the face/immersion in water/dose of reality. FFG can always use feedback in how to improve the promotion of this game, but I wager that they already have a considerable amount of material to work from to accomplish this.

Not that this post will change any of that.

But maybe, MAYBE FFG will give Damon the tools he needs rather than setting him up for failure as they did with Hata. Lord knows Damon's job to succeed as a designer for this game is an uphill battle already. Hopefully by the time Ancient Relics asylum cycle is released we will start to see some change in how FFG promote this game.

One thing FFG could do to promote the game regionally is to "hire" a group of volunteers with legal NDA as a Playtest and Design Team (PDT) under the direction of Damon. This would create regional representatives to act as living marketing hubs. The PDT could be "paid" in product and given additional promotional materials to push in game stores. The benefit of having PDT over a "Servitor" program is the representatives would be more than roving TO's as they would also be helping Damon and providing more diverse localities an up close and personal relationship with someone involved in the production of the game.

How is that for a starter?

@Hellfury: Just reading this for the first time now, so if the e-mail I sent a little bit ago sounds naive to you, please forgive me.

I guess I'm just glad that there are other people who want to see this game shine. I'd rather do whatever I can to build up this game's playerbase than forsake it in favor of a more popular game that holds no appeal for me. Call of Cthulhu has a lot of things going for it. It holds an incredible amount of complexity for such a simple system, it offers quick & fun gameplay that is hard to find elsewhere in the CCG market, and the setting is built around a writer who, to quote the foreword of B&N's H.P. Lovecraft: The Complete Fiction, "remains unique in being simultaneously a figure commanding respect among highbrow critics and a significant figure in popular culture."

I just think that if Call of Cthulhu: The Card Game could be truly supported to the extent warranted by its potential, it would be a worthy venture for FFG to do so, especially with their wise choice last year to make all future packs and expansions contain cards in 3x sets.

Hi!

I agree on one side that something more could (should?) be done in order to increase the visibility of the game. However, I don't have a clear view about _what_ should be done: of the 4 LCG currently available, Cthulhu is probably the one with the "worst" appeal for a very simple reason, the brand is not strong enough.

Just try to compare it to AgoT, LotR or Warhammer...

Being that clear, it's not even easy to get new players into the game: I seriously have no idea I could do that. Do you have suggestions? 95% of my friends are not players, they don't like games in general (board-, card-, whatever-games). I'm lucky that Marius lives nearby and he has a a couple of friends that play the game, but even there we are 3 CoC players...

I think, anyway, that at the moment some things are missing (namely: introductory articles about the game) and I'm trying to do my best to provide them (I'll let the readers judge if the final result is good enough or not ^^).

Last: I find a bit difficult to organize a tournament with some prizes. I mean: for the regionals we had a good kit but for a "normal" tournament you can't put cards as a prize and it is not easy to find some Cthulhu-related stuff that might be nice for players (but this is a minor problem, I know).

Ok, sorry for the confusing thoughts, but I'm confused myself regarding this matter

BTW, I think that there is something like a playtester group.

And to conclude: I've tried all the LCG by FFG and honestly, I think that CoC has the best mechanics; the guy that invented the domain system to play the cards had a brilliant idea and I wonder if there are other games with something similar out there, because this is the main aspect that got me into the game at the very beginning.

cheers

Francesco/Konx

Konx said:

I'm not completely sure that's the case. They're all strong licenses, but CoC is a special case due to the category of people who typically play CCGs. as I mentioned above (though admittedly, not very clearly) CoC and geek culture have a very strong overlap due to the franchise's origin as an RPG. Cthulhu's name is casually invoked as shorthand for unspeakable horror, and nobody else is going to get a dicebag crafted in their image. Very rarely are you going to meet someone at an sci-fi & fantasy event who has never at least heard of H.P. Lovecraft, and many of those who have (myself included) became fans of his work primarily through exposure created by belonging to the community. The trick is finding those people who are fans of Lovecraft, are into collectible card games, and are willing to play one in which victory is determined by the strength of the player rather than the strength of his bank account. I do have faith this can be done, but as you've pointed out, the question is how.

Konx said:

If there is a playtester group they are like shadows, not representing the product in any way that pings here. With the internet there is no reason why a PDT group could not expand to the far corners of the globe and be like summoning points for CoC. It would not be an expensive enterprise to give members of the global PDT group special domain cards to give away with some sort of proof of purchase, tournaments, etc.

As a general rule, playtesters keep all their activities confidential, so ideally nobody outside FFG should know who the play testers are.

Conversely, people wanting to promote the game should be well known and visible.

In my limited experience (I've only been gaming for about 38 years), there are two things that create a big community around a particular game: (1) popularity of the game play, and (2) a compelling tournament scene. I think the second point is more potent than the first, but also very difficult to realize.

A compelling tournament scene means that people are eager to participate in a tournament environment - this is because the game is fun, the competition is fun, and the rewards for participating are worthwhile. This usually involves a good game (we have one), a local champion that other players respect, and some kind of prize system. The last point is tricky - the prizes should NOT be too good - this makes the scene degenerate very quickly (Dreamblade, for example). The prizes should be something nice, unique to the game, but not expensive. Perhaps online rankings play a role because they create a bragging system for the players (sometimes bragging rights is the perfect prize for the tournament!)...

Online rankings would be the only thing that people couldn't attempt to sell. But cheap things like success/wound tokens and card sleeves might be feasible.

There are playtesters. I have been a playtester (not for this game) and all companies seem to have various levels of NDA's which prevent them disclosing what they do for the company.

I know there are playtesters for this game because Damon specifically told me he was looking for more. I don't recall all the things he said he was looking for but I do remember he wanted both very competitive as well as socially oriented players, groups of 4 to 8 people ideally (my impression is he'd work with more or less but he seemed to believe this was the sweet spot), and people capable of following direction and willing to devote some time to the process.

I have no idea what kind of "compensation" is involved in it, though, just helping make this game awesome is enough for me.

This is an interesting proposition you are posting. Are you aware of any way to contact current developer?

My thoughts:

1. Bring back the scoreboard and scoring system like under the old CCG days. It meant nothing but it was cool bragging rights, and that draws players out of the woodwork.

2. Free prize support. As soon as FFG started charging for it, I stopped bothering and we went to casual play. Neither myself nor my FLGS should be paying to promote their game. I know that sounds harsh but it's true.

3. Put more Lovecraftiana into the packs. I've mentioned this before and I stick to it. There are lots of characters, locations, artifacts and events from HPL's works and those of his fellow writers that haven't been tapped yet. Packs go by each month with cool cards but hardly anything taken directly from those stories. Put what the fans and readers know into the game more heavily and you may see some more interest.

4. Look to us, the rabid fans on the forums for card ideas.I know publishers hate this idea, but we're the ones who know what we would like to see in the game.

The_Big_Show said:

1. I don't know this system - can you elaborate?

2. Yes. I had to pay for the Regionals Kit at my FLGS - as much as they were willing to host the event, they were afraid to take the cost risk. Ultimately the players paid for it, which is fine, but it was a bit pricey at $20/person to break even.

3. I don't see the weakness in the story telling... Perhaps it is just your personal take? I'm not sure that more Lovecraft et al. tie ins would increase the player base, but I coud be wrong. I just don't have a good sense of how to get realistic data on whether that would increase sales or not.

4. I don't like the idea of players developing the cards or general card ideas. I think a good game needs a tight centralized development team, not a disperse group of players with individual visions of optimizing the game. This is in addition to the obvious intellectual property issues.

dstone (@) fantasy flight games (.) com

The old game I used to playtest for I know we were encouraged to send ideas to the developers for future ideas. Some of them even made it into the game. I agree with TheProfessor though, I want cards designed by someone who has a more objective and long term view. One which takes competitive and social play into consideration. Gencon winners get to design a card, but I know it all goes through the designers so I imagine that things could be kept under control, as long as they keep a very firm hand on it.

The_Big_Show said:

True enough. The term "Cthulhu Mythos" itself was coined by August Derleth (to whom we also owe the founding of Arkham House with Donald Wandrei). He also used it to refer to pieces which he and the other writers wrote to expand upon said work. For our game to truly be based on that setting it should include a vastly larger selection of content from their writings than it currently does.

And why stop there? Lovecraft is known to have been inspired by other weird fiction writers such as Robert W. Chambers and Edgar Allan Poe. I'm pretty sure the Ghost in the Core Set is meant to be a subtle nod to Charles Dickens, and it doesn't feel out of place to me at all. I'd love to see the Monkey's Paw itself (W.W. Jacobs) show up as a Hastur card, for example.

As to the talk about fanmade cards, it's not like they have to take our ideas verbatim and not revise them. There's a long process involved even for those cards made by the core designers (which we call playtesting, of course). I'm sure this is what was done at the LCG Days panels.

I know of another CCG that is designed very well with a similar PDT configuration I mentioned. The paradigm that playtesters need to be hidden is only correct if the player base is big enough to threaten harassment, not anywhere close to a concern here... FFG would still have a Lead Designer who takes full responsibility for the end product. The concept behind PDT is to make the product and design more accessible to small isolated regions that exist for games that do not have a big player base.

To be blunt, objectivity and balance are more in danger when you have a designer like Hata in whose isolation proved his inability to come up with quality cards for certain archetypes while overpowering others.

In the end, what does FFG risk? CoC has extremely low attendance at virtually all events worldwide. There are no points of connectivity with FFG regarding the CoC product line unless you post here (and this forum is sparse in that regard also). PDT is a low to no cost solution that increase involvement. But honestly, I think FFG will just ride what they have into the ground because the financial rewards will never warrant the effort.

I can't even find it now, but yesterday I stumbled upon some article where FFG asked fans to e-mail them about games they would like to start up at the FFG Event Center.

Granted, this is only really useful for those who live within driving distance of the Event Center, but has anyone tried doing this? Did you get a reply?

TheProfessor said:

1. FFG used the chess rating system (I forget what's called). The tournament organiser would enter who played who into the website and it posted it up on a scoreboard, international and via country.

2. I think FFG should take that small hit since we're doing the promotion via events.

3. I think it might since the game could draw in fans of Lovecraftiana. *shrugs*

4. I didn't mean like that. I meant that they add a forum section or we have a thread where we can post suggestions for cards. FFG could sift through it for ideas.

AEG has a thing for Legend of the Five Rings where they accept card (and I *think* story) suggestions. You simply copy & paste a legal boilerplate into the e-mail, waiving all rights to whatever it is you're submitting. Perhaps FFG could try something like that.

If I recall correctly there was topic on this a year ago (which I probably ranted pretty good on).

But in short, continuing to produce solid desirable expansions (something I've thoroughly enjoyed since the Cacophony) and keeping old cards available are essential. I would like to see older sets become more easily obtainable.

The reprints now are great first step and answered the prayers of many however eventually as time passes more sets will go out of print. As a suggestion instead of simply re-ordering the same print (with minor updates reflected by erratta obviously) perhaps a 'box set' of sorts containing a playest of every card of an out of print cycle. Perhaps with (some?) alternate art to keep some value on the originals? Not that there is a secondary market, but as an incentive for current players to 'collect' the new cards for a reason other than just because it has the latest erratta. This could be done once a year around the holidays (probably not to happen immediately but as sets have been out of print for awhile it could be viable).

An idea to get players now (or sooner at least), would be promos! Fairly certain this was suggested last year and probably ever since they were removed. Alternate art/ erratta updated/commonly played cards are an excellent way to hook new players into more long-term obession. And current players probably wouldn't mind even if it was just commonly played cards so they can build more decks without having to buy multiple copies of packs or using cruddy proxies.

Cross-promotions. Advertising in popular media will get people's attention and draw people to the game. Even things like having a commerical during Cthulhu based episodes of South Park would have done wonders. Cthulhu is a staple in fanstasy media and has popped up all over the place! No better place to advertise a game featuring Cthulhu than say on site that has a webcomic doing a cthulhu issuse.

Advertsing. While advertising on the theme alone is nice, but getting to that next level and promoting its mechanics (after Damon and FFG are done cleaning things up) and game play. Gamers will play a game just because someone said it has excellent game play. CoC has this and other than hearsay seems to be lost.

Tournament promotions. The World Championship is right around the corner... this is the highlight of CoC's year. Its pinacle! Preview pics of the trophy(s), and other prizes, a finalized FAQ (before the first of July), reviews of previous years, a list of whats gonna be legal... I dunno. Coverage! Need me some pre-game lead up. Some stuff to excite the community. Though, I suppose some of this responsibility is mine as well. Sadly my life keeps me pretty busy, but thats no excuse. I should be able to do SOMETHING.

I have a few ideas of my own which I'll start working on tomorrow for sure! However I'm also open for suggestions (preferably emailed which I have my address in my signature) of things you'd guys like to see me do/write.

CoC seems to be maintaining. Despite feeling like the low-man on the lcg totem pole this is actually something positive to look at. Ultimately, what is going to help this game the most is solid online community activity. I'm by no means attacking the forums here, but I know I would certainly like to see a boom over at cardgame_db simply for its card database and something more unofficially offical for online gameplay. Whats available now is... ok for some, but would love to see some sort of online chat room for CoC players to frequent thats also preferable accessable by smart phones (that way I can hang out too when I"m not at home which is quite often).

Meh, some things to chew on at least. Hopefully I wasn't too ranty for everyone

Magnus Arcanis said:

Magnus, can you share with us what you are thinking to do/write? For the future (if anyone here is interested) my plans are:

- the second part of the article about resourcing (written and waiting for this Friday)

- introductory article with a description of each faction (for new players in particular) (written, I'm reviewing it)

- basic deckbuilding ideas (almost finished)

Then I collected the lists from the 3-4 regional that we have a report for, and I'm trying to do some analysis (will be posted here on the forum as soon as it is finished).

Then, I think I will start some regular discussion for single cards: interaction, common uses etc..

And hopefully, this stuff will be of some use for someone out there

Konx

Good stuff there Konx.

A few I had were primiarily based around Worlds itself. Perhaps a review of the previous two years (would go back further, but probably best to keep it lcg) and a sort of primer for this year's (once we know what is all going to be legal). Also wouldn't mind doing a primer for each of the side tournaments(if there is any) if the format varies enough.

Something to get people pumped for Gencon.

Though if someone wants to beat me to it I won't stop em

Been thinkin about doing card reviews. Though "Card of the Day/Week/Month" articles generally aren't my favorite reads and usually are done poorly or just look useless as time goes on. Not to mention it always looked like a cheap gimmick used to get web hits back in the 90's so I have a rather low opinion of them. FYI, please, no one confuse this with what Marius does. Marius writes preview articles, well done articles that greatly appreciated and are a good read.

However, I'm willing to forgoe my predjucies if it was people wanted to see/read.

One last idea I had was more of a video/audio presentation, a week/monthly show of sorts. However... I don't have the machinery, technical know-how (at least do to it well), time, content, script.... So like... if I didn't have to do any of the work and just show up and run my mouth off for a few minutes... See this is why I asked for ideas otherwise I'll just keep coming up with bad ones that I'll never do on my own anyway. LOL

Of course... as I'm writing this I have one more idea... Interviewing people who win/do things!

Ohh... I wish I would've thought of this before regionals season started. Think I'll need a translator? Man this is gonna be rushed. Gonna need emails...

If you won/placed well/attended a recent Cthulhu event please email me!!! I think we should talk!

Now how to present this... text, audio, video? Video would be awesome, but... language barrier (not that theres much of one) text might be best huh? What do you guys think?

I think this is a great idea Magnus.

I also would love to read some articles about the guys who won some regionals, how the building process from the deck was, how they trained, stuff like that.

And I have to say, that I probably watched the two available CoC LCG videos on youtube over a dozen times (the one with the gameplay explanation and the one with magnus in the finals back in the CCG days). I would be really happy if someone at least shoots some footage from the world championship tourney this year and put it online.

Would there be any interest in a bi-weekly or so CoC podcast? I've been doing the 2 Champs and a Chump show for AGOT since the fall, but I know the new CoC player that I have in my neck of the woods had expressed some interest in doing a CoC show with me as well. If there's interest, we'll see what we can hammer out.

Kennon said:

I don't even play AGoT and I occasionally listen to the podcast. Mostly out of envy that CoC doesnt have one and because I like to see/hear what other people do as a level of precedence if I ever chose to do such myself (however unlikely).

At this point though, I doubt it matters what medium such support is brought to the community with. No need to go overboard with production when starving people are thankful to be fed crackers.

Yes Kennon. Yes. Podcast please.