PArdon me? when (exaclty did baratheon have thier day? it must ahev been pretty short - becuase msot fo us sure missed it. Lannister has been dominant since the game re-booted and Martell has been good since Prices hit - and now they are spectacular. So - I think your conclusion to your post is way off.

As to vigilant - true. But you're ahrd pressed to find playable Vigilant characters with inherent renown. Most Vigilance has to be given e,g via Bannerman what would make the glass cannon a little higher caliber is a way to get some of these non unique, vigilant characters the hitting power they need so baratehon cna close a little better.

That and Burning restricted.

Its funny - i don't mind the matchup with Lannister. I really feel I cna beat them givne decent draws for both of us out fo the gate. But Martell...i ahve no confidence. I have to strip away clser cards to laod up on event cancel just to have a shot, adn even then - if it goes past Turn 3 i knwo its over. It just doesn't seem fair against Martell. The Lannister matchup is tough, but fair.

I don't pay as much attention to the competitive environment as many of you, but I think the closest Baratheon had to a moment in the sun was last year's GenCon, where they were rather overshadowed by the North agendas.

So, if I may shift the discussion a little bit, is it the general consensus that Baratheon (particularly Rush in its various iterations) is a second class citizen at the moment, at least when compared to the likes of Martell, Lannister, and maybe even Stark?

The impression I'm getting is that it's still too vulnerable to Martell events, particularly BotS and Cyvasse, as it needs to keep its renown characters on the table and winning challenges. The same can be said for Lannister kneel. Also, the trait manipulation that is flying around everywhere hurts it too, but that hits just about everything, doesn't it?

Staton said:

I don't think Vigilant breaks Bara decks, I think that having renown on Many Non-unique bara characters would be OP. Again this is just my opinion.

Stag Lord said:

I am not too terribly sure about your meta, or the renional competitive meta but in my own, Bara was on top right after the reboot, and pretty much after the bara delux expansion. That is why I say it’s been strong. I can say that I do agree with your statement about giving the bara more STR to actually close a deal, but usually I can do that by making multiple challenges with Vigilant characters backed up by “Accepted Destiny”.

Either way, I just don’t feel that by giving Bara a slew of Non-uniques with renown will be the answer to make them more competitive, yet I’d be willing to try anything to test the theory.

Shenanigans said:

Yes, I honestly do. But I can accept the fact that Bara isn’t on the top of the pile because I would prefer to see Targ be some of the best decks in the meta right now. I Love Targ, and I’m still putting a lot of my energy and time into creating a Hoss Targ Deck that will smash all comers. Though I don’t know how viable an option it will be until the end of the current chapter pack cycle.

I'm not talking about a bunch of non unique guys with renown. I just want a way to give a character renown. Unique or Non unique. How about this card idea.

Unique Location Name Baratheon

Two cost

Any Phase: Kneel to give a baratheon character Renown until the end of phase. If the character already has renown, it claims an additional power after claiming a power for renown.

Its unique so you can't just give three random chuds renown every turn. However, it would combo well with King's Ground, which is something that Baratheon likes to do, take three or four cards and turn them into a combo that nets you a million power.

Staton said:

You almost have me until the "make them Fat Bob" situation. I think that might be over-kill. And there certainly needs to be a careful I with King's Ground available. I could see it at 1-cost with the "No Attachments."

The big issue, is the combination of Renown and multiple challenges, whether that's non-kneeling/free-standing (KoF & Bob), Vigilant, or another triggered effect (DI or the Hammer). What constitutes balance between speed, reliability and resilience. And I would agree that Burning on the Sand should be a restricted card, and not just because it shuts down an entire keyword. Take your original suggestion: say you add this to an Asshai build and use it on Fiery Followers or CS Renly, win MIL, stand it with your King's Ground and then use it on Mel with <give a holy Vigilant> attachment on her. Presuming you don't get BotS'd, you're looking at minimum of 7 renown, plus claim for the Power Challenge and any UO. You could sub the Holy Plot in place of the Fanatic. Alternatively, try the same scenario with any Mel, ToR Renly or the H. Florent Scouts plus Fat Bob. That should not you 10 renown on 2 characters, should you be able to push things through right.

Again, I'm not saying this isn't a good idea, just illustrating how carefully balanced it must be. Cost/card interactions (King's Ground of the Chain that stands locations)/ and restrictions... cost/STR higher or lower, (non)uniqueness, house affiliation all must be checked and balanced. Though I'd also love to see GJ get Damphair's Chambers back.. deadly on command FTW. The same could be said for a couple of other keywords too.

OK, then how about if it has renown it gets plus one str for each power on it? I just don't want a location that just gives renown. that's too vanilla.

Maester_LUke said:

Isn't Longship Black Wind better? Its also a draw mechanic and has the Warship trait...

Staton said:

Now that sentiment I will disagree with. If anything this game needs _more_ vanilla. Particularly on non-uniques. Save the cool **** for the uniques so people actually need to build around them and play the heralds... rather than just 3x nine chuds and singletons of the three best uniques in a house. <Whoa! Am I channeling rings her or what? I think I need an Angreal.>

The ability to give renown, combined with a house-strength in standing is pretty darn good. Would "Accepted Destiny" or "Devious Intentions" be more playable as 1-cost locations than in their current incarnation? I'd pitch "Tourney Winner's Circle," a 1-Cost Bara location that knelt to give a non-unique character renown and the knight trait (. I didn't specify Bara Characters so it's playable out-of-house. (I want to see Staton complain about it like Kennon did about Cersei's Favor) And if it seems too strong, make it no-attachments, unique or limited.

Skowza said:

Good point. Still not familiar with all the cards in "Conclave" yet. The Chambers do have the advantage of not being unique, and the deadly lasts for the phase.

Well to be fair I'd rather it be an attachment. A lot more fragile than a location, but I figured people would say it wasn't strong enough. I'd be cool with a one cost location that gave a character renown and the knight trait. Probably would have to make it no attachments or unique though. Three of those and three kings ground would be silly. ~Can we name it Renly's Tent and the character gain the holy crest too? I mean Loras was ALWAYS praying in there!

Staton said:

+1 ROFLMAO

Staton said:

Event card, Manscapping the Stag, every unique male character in play claims 1 power

Dude..........

hahaha genius card idea

Staton casts thread resurrection! Staton is out of mana.

Staton needs food badly. Staton is about to die...

Kennon said:

Man, I need to post the picture I took of a flyer at a bar-cade in Portland called "Ground Kontrol." It said "Gamer needs food badly," and highlighted several menu items.

I really wnat the Plot Clash of Kings back - the one that gave you an extra Power Challenge. Yeah - i know we have An Empty Throne - but that benefits both players - adn i don't think having two such Plots would break the environment. In fact - it might make Plot manipulation a little more attractive.

Game of Thrones - the Claim 2 +1 INT challenge should be back as well.

Stag Lord said:

I'll second this. We do have Storm of Swords back already, so why not this?

At the risk of opening old wounds, it might even make Baratheon power rush more viable.

Stag Lord said:

+ Eleven

LoneWanderer said:

But why not just go to 10?

IIRC the glass cannon is Bara treaty of the South.

If you manage to pull this off:

Plot: Power of Blood

Red Viper + Taste for Blood

Def. Melisandre w/ Save (the one with the extra claim)

Battle at the Wall in play.

So this only happens if the opponent hasn't realized this is up:

Lose 3 challenges: +3 Power

Viper and Mel Power challenge u/o: 1 pwr clain, 1 uo, 1 mel response, 1 mel renown, 1 viper renown = +5 (8 power)

Viper Intrige challenge u/o: 1 renown, 1 uo, 1 mel response: +3 (11 power)

Viper mil challenge: 1 renown , 1uo (13 power)

If you do win dom, this wins the game or...

Epic battle: lose power challenge: 1 tfb (13 power)

Power challenge u/o 4 power (17)

You pretty much need to draw Viper, Tfb, Mel, a save for mel (bodyguard, another mel, or a weenie), A +1 gold location, bara reducer, etc,

But IF the opponent either draws so bad they can't oppose you or they attack all out... you CAN in fact win on the first turn.

With the 3 recucer bara has its possible to setup viper, marshal mel, and have room for another renown character. Also orphans can help with the uo or wars are won with quills.

(Note: This has only occured to me once, but I have about 30% gotten 14 power on turn 1, and then won with red wedding.)

Seems like it depends not only on fantastic setup and draw, but also on your opponent being absolutely clueless.

Decent Glass Cannon that. Against a more experienced player I'd be expecting:

- 1-2 less power from taste for blood: 1. they won't make the P challenge if you have no power to steal, 2. they'll only make the M challenge if they have something to kill. (I'm guessing we're NOT playing against another rush here, and if you had any weenies on the table, they'd have been a hindrance for the Viper's ability and your opponent would probably have taken advantage of it.)

- Less power from uo's, pretty much dependent on your opponents setup (number of cheap weenies) and deck... At least the I challenge will not be unopposed, and neither will M (Chump aka. Kennon blocking). P maybe. Also it's quite likely that you'll lose the I challenge, so 1 less renown. Resulting in 4 less power.

So you'd be at 7-8 power. Quite decent, since depending on the number of characters they have left, you could still get 2-6 power from dominance & The Battle. The chance of getting into striking range for Red Wedding is pretty decent. This will depend quite a bit on just about everything really, will require the setup and starting hand to go just right etc. (it wouldn't be a Glass Cannon if it didn't, maybe a Crystal Cannon then...)

On a side thought: The restricting of BotS is pretty good for Rush. Since you can't run VB and BotS in the same deck, you can hedge your bets using small stealth-weenies and renown/vigilance. If they're running VB, then you can push your challenges with your renown guys (smuggler's cove?) and if they're running BotS, you can get your vigilant guys back up after a bots'd challenge with a stealth weenie.

I like Drake's assesment here. I think Turn 1 7--8 power is more reasonable - bloodycelt's assumptions are absed too much on opponent incompetnce for my taste. Given that Burning is pretty much gone now the Treaty deck may be able to close within striking distance I woudl worry about Claim 2 on Turn 1 - you're ar goign to be dangerously exposed with nine gold in characters from the flop and Turn 1 Marshall .But if you can survive - you may be in Red Wedding reach no later than Plot Three....its a pretty good glass cannon.

What about Baratheon Brotherhood> i've only started thinking about this recently - but does Beric rsuh well with Baratheon? Its a Nedly fit - the Brotherhood supported the Baratheon succession in the novels and Beric can be fast. Cressen gives automatic protection from Milk - Beric's biggest weakness. And Baratehon should eb able to throw out enough supplemntal renown to really close thinsg out quickly. Has anyone played with the build? i imagine power on the House is the biggest single issue....and (of course) draw.