New question this time about kill and response:

"Valar Morghulis: When revealed, kill all characters in play" and "Old Bear Mormont: Response: Kill Old Bear Mormont (cannot be saved) to cancel the 'when revealed' effects of a plot card that has just been played."

Can I use Old Bear response after valar is revelad? He is in moribound from this what I understand but he already were killed so I not shure if I can kill him twice?

viktorvektor said:

His ability is a response, so it interrupts the "when revealed" effect of Valar Morghulis before it resolves, so he wouldn't be killed by Valar Morghulis, only by his ability if you choose to trigger it to cancel Valar.

How about this card?

Bastard. Sand Snake. Ally.
Response: After you lose a challenge, discard Bastard Daughter from play to put a unique Sand Snake character into play from your hand or discard pile

Can I after lost chalange use it as character to fullfill military claim but also run this response? I think that not but better ask.

viktorvektor said:

No. If she is killed then you cannot remove her from play again. See "Rules Exception", page 16.

Fieras said:

Ellaria Sand (3 Gold)

3 (I) (P)

Vengeful
Response: After you lose a challenge, move 1 power from any character to Ellaria Sand.

So beating someone with her in play using a Renown character is not beneficial for you since it always adds that power to her?

Brutal for renown. Better use them all in one challenge.

Bomb said:

Right, but you can't collect and keep for renown unless you use more than one renown character in a single challenge. I'm just saying she almost wipes out the power of renown from the opponent and takes it for herself. And this isn't limited to losing challenges to non-renown characters. Nor losing by defending. Makes you not want Renown characters since she will benefit off them for each loss.

She is the ultimate counter to losing challenges.

I wanted to jump in on this thread even though it has de-railed a bit.

My friends and I were wondering if we were playing the game right when we had 2 or more characters participating in a challenge that had the Deadly Attribute, we would count each character with Deadly as having a kill. Therefore, winning a challenge with 2 participating Deadly attributes means I can kill up to 2 participating defenders, plus whatever my claim amount is on the plot card.

Is this the same for Stealth and Renown, etc? Each participating character gets to "do" their attribute?

What about a character with renown and immune to character abilities.

Example (real):

Arya (that can take renown and stealth kneeling one influence) with crown of something (gives her immune to character abilities).

She attacks and wins (obviously against Martell)....gains one power for renown. Then Ellaria triggers her response to take the power from Arya.

Is the character ability affecting directly Arya or the power on her? I ask because you can discard an attachment from an immune character if the ability is targeting the attachment.....does power resolves the same way ? (or gold if it was a house dayne immune character a you were taking 1 gold instead of power)

AceMan...you count the number of char you control with deadly but you only kill 1 for it (only if you have more than the defending player)

AceManUSC said:

You are incorrect regarding Deadly. You just check to see if there are more attacking characters with Deadly than defending characters. If so, you kill one character. Otherwise nothing happens. Stealth and Renown are resolved individually though (each character with stealth lets the attacker kneel a defender, each character with renown claims a power).

choco said:

Ellaria versus immunity is a debated topic. See this thread. Nate has ruled in the past that Ellaria can take power from immune characters.

schrecklich said:

The ruling for power on a character with immunity (and indeed attachments, gold and duplicates) are covered in the FAQ (do a search in the FAQ for "Scope of Immunity").

the1andonlime said:

schrecklich said:

Thanks for the clarification. It's probably better Deadly is limited to one kill. As for Stealth, I didn't know that Stealth forced a kneel, I thought it just made the defender unable to name them as a defender. Is that right?

AceManUSC said:

schrecklich misspoke there.

ktom said:

Okay, but what about attacking with 3 Stealth characters for example. Can I pick 3 characters the defender cannot name as defenders? Or am I limited to only one stealth?

Ack! Sorry, I've been playing too much with Lost Oasis....

AceManUSC said:

Stealth
For each of your attacking characters with the
“Stealth” keyword, you may choose, before defenders
are declared, a character without Stealth
on the defending side. That character may not
defend during this challenge.

So yeah, 3 attacking characters with Stealth means 3 characters that cannot be declared as a defender.

"Each" seems pretty clear. Was there a specific card or situation where the confusion was coming from?

Again about Deadly and Mil chalenge? If a character with deadly win a mil chalenge against single Character who can be saved as a response (discarding duplicate for example), can the same character be target of the Deadly efect or not? The rules says Thus, the defender may not
choose to kill the same character multiple times, even if that character could be saved. but this is only for claiming,in mil chalenge, not for the another effects.

BG_AZAZEL said:

Exactly. Settling the claim of a challenge and resolving Deadly occurs at different points in time (specifically, Deadly resolves in step 4 of the framework action window, after the framework action of settling claim has taken place, see FAQ). So if you save the character from the claim effect, Deadly will still kill him.

What happend when attacking character with deadly loose MIL chalenge vs Rob Stark CS? The Rob's responce eff will be execute in Determine winner of challenge Framework action phase (after defenders are kneelt) and the character with deadly will be dead before Deadly effect initiated (after chalenge is completly resolve), but description of dedly say : During a challenge, if the attacking player controls the most participating
characters with the “Deadly” keyword,... in my opinion this is in the Framework phase "determining dfenders" witch is before "determine winner"

The other thing that confuse me is that after resolving completly Rob's effect and the Deadly character is in the dead pile -> No attacing character with Deadly in the chalenge, no deadly effect. Is that true?

BG_AZAZEL said:

Careful with the timing of things.

About deadly, the rules say "the defending player must choose and kill a defending participating character after the challenge resolves." The whole resolution of Deadly, i.e. both the determination of who controls the most Deadly characters and the killing, happens in step 4 of the challenge resolution framework action window.

Robb's ability is a response and happens in step 5 of the same framework action window, therefore after the resolution of Deadly.

However, note that characters enter the moribund state (see FAQ) when they are killed (or discarded, etc.) and don't actually leave play until the end of the framework action window in step 6.

So if the attacker controls the most Deadly characters, the defender will have to kill a character regardless of whether the deadly character is subsequently killed by Robb's response, and Robb, even if he was chosen to die for Deadly, would still be able to trigger his response because although he has been killed, he is in the moribund state and so technically still in play, even if he's headed for the dead pile at the end of the framework action window.

Saturnine said:

Ok, so in the situation that I win as attacker, with Rob Star and Gray Wind (deadly), Mil chalenge, If i understood you right, the order of things is like that: step 3 chalenge resolve - one dead by claim, step 4 passive resolve - one dead by deadly and step 5 respounce resolve - one dead by Rob's effect step 6 end of the framework action window. (keep in mind that all this dead character are Moribund and can use there abilitys till step 6)

So am I understanding the things right?

BG_AZAZEL said:

Yes. And in step 6, *all* moribund characters move to their respective out-of-play destinations (dead pile, discard pile, etc.) at the same time.

A further note: once a character has become moribund, he cannot be removed from play (killed, discarded, etc.) a second time. Consider the following scenario: The attacker wins a military challenge and has the most Deadly characters and a claim value of 1. The defender has two participating characters, A and B. To resolve the claim of the challenge, he chooses and kills character A. A is moribund but still on the table. Deadly is resolved, and the defending player has to kill a participating character. Because A is already moribund, A cannot be chosen to die (again) for Deadly, so the defender has to kill character B.

Another possible scenario is this: Same situation as above, but the defending player chooses to defend the challenge only with character A. Claim is resolved and the defender chooses and kills character A. Things move on the the resolution of Deadly, but the defender had only one participating character which is already moribund at this point, so no character is killed for Deadly.

BG_AZAZEL said:

When a challenge "resolves," 4 things must happen (in order)

1. The winner/loser of the challenge is determined
2. The claim effects take place
3. Power is awarded for "unopposed" if appropriate
4. Power is awarded for the "Renown" keyword if appropriate

It is very common for people to want to resolve passive effects or trigger Response to "winning" or "losing" the challenge between #1 and #2 above. But the rules are very clear that passives and Response to anything above are held until all of them resolve. That's the reasoning behind what Saturnine explained about "Step 3, resolve challenge; Step 4, passives (like Deadly); Step 5, Responses (like Robb)."

So the moral of the story is that the challenge must resolve completely by completing all 4 of those items before passives or Responses to any of those items (individually or collectively) can happen.

Note also that the opportunity to Respond to all those items is open at the same time. You can Respond to a character dying for claim or collecting power for Renown before Responding to winning/losing the challenge if you like.