That was pretty much my thoughts on it as well after reading through all of it.

Check out the Inquisitor's Handbook, has info on Force Weapons.

Lesson in life, always read all posts to avoid repeating info.

Has anyone else actually tried using the DW rules for Grey Knights? It seems to me that it actually doesn't work as well as you would hope. A lot of the new talents don't work with the DW system, particularly the rules for psykers, which leaves me thinking that I just bought a book for DH that really includes more useful crunch for a Space Marine campaign except that the crunch is about half-done. Specifically, it would be fine if the majority of talents that make the Grey Knights unique didn't translate, if not for the fact that to play certain specialties (librarian, apothecary, tech-marine) you have to use DW. (And I know, other than apothecary Grey Knights don't really make use of those specialities but 1) FFG mentions them in the book and 2) that's why I bought a RPG.)

Don't get me wrong, I love the fluff about the Calixian Malleus, and I think Daemon creation rules are definitely a nice touch and useful as well, but I was underwhelmed by the Daemon Hunter careers (which seemed fairly limited) and the armoury (which other than a few pieces, was bested by about everything in Ascension), and given that those 4 chapters and the Grey Knights chapter are the only ones in the book, I would have like the mechanics to have been a little smoother.

Sorry this turned into a rambling put-down of the book, but I've bought every book in the DH line other than Creatures Anathema and the adventure books, as well as Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, and Rites of Battle, and this is in my opinion the weakest offering I've seen yet.

I have to agree. Although interesting the Grey Knights are poorly implemented.

It seems to get the most out of a Grey Knight you need to play them using Death Watch, but they lack a lot of the rules needed to fucnction properly within the Death Watch game (Squad Mode for a start, Brotherhood of Psykers is piss poor in comparission to what can be done with Squad Mode in the big epic battles that Death Watch leans towards)

In a Dark Heresey game they will be very hit and miss. I was amused when the DH book advised that you could use Grey Knight in an Ascended party and that some of the combat focused Throne Agents might even give him a run for his money. Rubbish. The best combat Throne Agents such as a death cultist, or Templar Calix/Primaris Psyker would rip the GK a new one before he even said something heroic. At Ascended levels the avoidance on a Combat Throne Agent will be very good, if the GK is lucky enough to go first, he will swing in with his one or possibly two attacks which the Throne Agent will either dodge or parry and counter attack thanks to what will likely be a higher WS and multiple reaction. Then the Storm of Blows Talent will then shred the silver armoured pillock to little peices because he has to rely on armour to survive against killing machines with power weapons, force weapons and psychic blades.

Anyone able to dish specifics on the non-astartes Malleus Power Armor, and the rosarius in the book?

Malleus Power Armor - Best craftmanship Power Armor (As per Dark Heresy Rule Book) that can run a full week without recharging, but can be equipped with an "astartes style" power supply for continual use. Daemons take 1d5 damage when striking the armor with natural weapons (no reduction for toughness or armor).

Rosarius - This is a no show. Closest thing they have is a Refraction Field and a Refraction Bracelet (bloth are force field protection rating 30, but the bracelet only protects the body and arms).

So the Malleus power armor is just best quality power armor from the DH core book? Not even as good as the Ascension rules ignatus power armor? Wow, talk about disappointing.

Well it does mention the armor has Hexagramic Wards (thats the reason for the damage to daemons) as part of the fluff. So you could assume that it has the Hexagramic Wards as per IH, and thus is much more useful.

Also, I didn't mention the Malleus Terminator Armor. 12 Armor Points, Auto-Stabilised trait, +30 to strength, can fire Heavy & mounted weapons one handed, a wrist mount for various weapons, built-in Auspex and refractor field , same daemon damaging effect as above, also lets you use Nemesis Force Weapons. So theres that

Quartermus said:

Based on this, me guesses the armor should have pentagrammic wards. Or perhaps they change this without notice..

Yeah, I'd LOVE to get terminator armor.....but there's a Deathwatch crossover, and I think the DW Marines would have a problem with it

Anyone able to dish specifics on the non-astartes Malleus Power Armor, and the rosarius in the book?

Rosarius states and description is in the Ascension book armory. It's much better than a refractor field.

Quartermus said:

The armour does not give you the capacity to use an Astartes Weapon, instead the Nemesis Force Weapons are one of the weapons that can be wielded by a person in malleus terminator armour.

If you as a normal throne agent put on the armour and pick up a nemesis force halberd you will still be subject to the penalties for using an Astartes weapon.

Banjulhu said:

Dude, that doesn't make sense. I won't argue about the ability to use Astartes weapons on the whole, but it specifically says that Nemesis Force Weapons can be used with this armor. They wouldn't put that in the "Malleus Terminator Armor" desciption just to have you deal with the same -30 penalty that non-terminator armored people have to deal with.

And now that I think about it, this makes me re-think my previous position on the description for the Nemesis Daemon Hammer and it's reference to being the most common weapon used by non-Grey Knights (high ranking ordo malleus inquisitors).

High Ranking Ordo Malleus Inquisitor = Malleus Terminator Armor

High Ranking Ordo Malleus Inquisitor + Malleus Terminator Armor = Nemesis Daemon Hammer

Does it asy anything about normal humans being able to use the Terminator and "normal" power armor?

They've always been, these Terminator and "normal" PA are just human-sized...

Stormast said:

It's called "civilian Terminator".

I'm confused about the Astartes Psycannon (AP) and the Heavy Psycannon (HP) for the Dreadknight. I think Blast (6) can't compensate the lost RoF and smaller payload especially because the HP weighs 140kg more than the AP, besides they have both the same base Damage. 2D10+15+Psy-Rating for the AP seems a little bit to much even for a heavy weapon. The kind of damage (E,I,R,X) is missing for both weapons.

Quartermus said:

It does not say you can use a weapon when in Terminator Armour but instead tells you you are limited to wielding.

Its a rules based of the fluff that terminator armour can only ustilse a certain umber of weapons. So when in terminator armour you can only wield weapons from the list of Terminator-Compatible Weapons, whichmeans when in termmie armour you can not use chainswords or hell guns for example, however if you lack the capacity or training to use the weapns that you are limited to using you are still going to be penalised when using them. The armour rules list Terminator-Compatible Weapons, not weapons you magically get the capacity to use when you put the armour on.

Look at it this way the Terminator-Compatible Weapons also says you can use storm bolters and power swords when wearing the armour, but of you lack Baicic Weapon Training (Bolt) and Melee Weapon Training (Power) you are going to take the untrained penalties, If you pick up an Astartes Weapon such as a Nemesis Forc Weapon you are going to take the penalties for its size and rebellious machine spirit etc unless you have something to over come them.

I don't think comparing having the inappropriate talents to being of the wrong essential size is a proper comparison. You take a -30 pentaly while wielding astartes weaponry, cause the normal human is too freaking small for them. However, when in Terminator armor, you go up to Hulking size, with an appropriate strength boost. I would wholly support the ability to use them while in Termi armor, because that's what Termi armor does.

"Terminator-Compatible Weapons - The following weapons can be used with Malleus Terminator Armor: Combi-Weapons, Power Weapons, Power Fists, Nemesis Force Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Storm Bolters, Incinerators & Psycannons."

Hmm, seems it does say you can use Nemesis Force weapons, well how about that.

Taking another look at it, I have to agree with Brolthemighty.

The reason why the armor is restricted from most weapons (due to it's oversized & powerful nature) is the same reason why Nemesis Force weapons should be used without penalty, and nothing will convince me otherwise.

Now if only FFG would publish the Deamon and Grey Knight Sheets in PDF format on the support site I'd be a happy man.

Quartermus said:

Not even the text in the Astartes equiptment section that says machine spirits of Astrates Weapons dislike being wielded by noraml humans and can rebel against them so GMs should penalise a human approriately if he uses an Astartes Weapon.

Kain McDogal said:

yeah i noticed that will have to modify on on the fly if we ever use it.

Banjulhu said:

Nope, not even that (by the way, the Machine Spirit nonesense is for optional penalties, if the GM "feels" its warranted). For me to accept an argument as valid, I need to see it as reasonable. I haven't heard a reasonable argument yet. So far the argument I was given is;

1.) Malleus Terminator Armor is given a "Terminator-Compatible" list of weapons (Combi-Weapons, Power Weapons, Power Fists, Nemesis Force Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Storm Bolters, Incinerators & Psycannons), presubably due to it's powerful, oversized stature.

2.) Nemesis Force weapons can only be used by Astartes because they were designed to be used by people with powerful, oversized statures.

Basially, you can argue this anyway you want, but for me, it boils down to this; Why even bother mentioning that someone in Malleus Terminator Armor can use Nemesis Force Weapons if you're going to include the -30 penalty. If that is really the case then they might as well say "EVERYONE" can use Nemesis Force weapons, they ALL end up having the same penalty right.

Quartermus said:

I think this is stupid, because powerweapons, normal weapons and chainwepaons are of the same size.

What about a Evisceretor?

For the first time, I'll use house-rules in my Dark Heresy. [Thunders in background]