I've recently started GM'ing a campaign and until last session it never occurred to me that Space Marines don't get at least the basic tech-use. So after considering it I decided to give the PC's the basic tech-use, one of the players however objected ans suggested that the reasons why Marines dont have to worry about tech-use because they have Techmarines and Artificers and that as soldiers they wouldn't have been trained in such things because the Techmarines can do it, using the example they wouldnt know how to get a fusion reactor (or something similar) to explode.

I hit back by saying that Marines aren't line soldiers but genetically enhanced super soldiers who are trained to levels that we can only dream of. I said that they'd have the intellect to deal with unusual technologies especially as they are serving with the deathwatch and that they would know how to rig a fusion reactor to explode but I would put greater penalties on rigging a reactor to explode that getting a auspex to work in an electrical storm or getting the electrics up in an abandoned building, there were other reasons given by both of us but i can't remember what they were exactly.

So I wonder what are your views on this? I know each gm has their own method and that Rule 0 is don't argue with the gm but is the pc right and I'm missing the point or is my reasoning valid enough to give marines tech-use?

Tech-Use isn't simply "using technology". It's also "being trained in the ways of the Mechanicum", somehow. In the Imperium, even rigging a nuclear reactor to explode may require some rites...

So I'd say basic Tech-Use is cool for the PCs (especially in teams lacking a Techmarine), as Space Marines surely know at least the basic rites (those you need to do when you don or take off some elements of the Power Armor, those required to clean your Bolter, etc, etc), and may surely have grasped at least some elements of it.

Then again, a Basic test is more or less 20-25% chance to work when it's Challenging, rigging your nuclear reactor to blow would surely be higher in difficulty, becoming nigh impossible for the basic marine with no clue in Tech-Use.

I don't see that as a real fluff or game balance problem.

I think there might be room here for some hypno therapy/psycho-indoctrination based tuition.

So if a Marine needs a specialist skill for a mission they go under the learning machines for five minutes and suddenly they know Kung Fu*. Er, I mean how to wire a nuclear plant to explode. Probably with no roll needed.

The knowledge is not fully integrated though, so it is only useful for that one task.

*

Tech-Use is a form of Forbidden Lore. Unsanctioned use of it can lead a normal person to be branded a heretek, that's why Technomats only have Trade(Technomat) - normally. In a similar vein a Techmarine is sort of a priest of the machine god and responsible for the equipment and its machine spirits. Astartes equipment are holy relics that need to be treated accordingly well and that is the task of someone who truly understands the way of the machine. Remember that Techmarines spend 30 years on Mars for training. Normal Marines simply defer to them in all manners tech-related. They themselves do not understand. It's like Kabbala all over to them. At best what they can perform is holy Rites of Equipment Maintenance which in my interpretation would rather fall into the realm of Trade(Technomat).

@Wolfie: I don't think hypno-indoc works very well except for mentally brain-washing Marines. If it did work well, you could rely on that instead of going through constant drills. I guess in my game world I'd set it up so that hypon-indoc allows to treat a specified advanced skill as basic skill - if you have been paying for that indoc in req points. Pure knowledge skills (such as languages, etc.) might be easier and I might allow indoctrinated marines to treat them as Trained skills. If they pay for it - and the indoctrination wears off (if you don't rule that, you have to have every Marine have every skill set-up this way).

Alex

Maverick91 said:

They should also -by the same logic- all be skilled enough to start play with Swift Attack (a talent gained even by lowly DH characters), demolitions, survival, all tactics at trained level, mighty shot, etc.

However, players need advancement, and starting marine characters with all the skills that they 'should' have leaves very little room for that. The skill is there on the advancement list, and it's there as an option, like survival, demolitions, etc.

And...what the others said. Tech-Use isn't about knowing how to use a microwave: It's learning how to perform mechanical tasks by rote, complete with a lot of chanting, anointing, and additional complications.

Tech-Marines are perhaps my most favorite thing in all of the 40k universe, so my opinion may be a bit biased. The way I see it, all marines are extremely specialized individuals. Now please don't misinterpurt this statement. Sure, any one of them could pick up a heavy weapon, or switch from ranged to melee tactics. But once their role is set for a mission, they stick to it, because every battle brother is relying on them to perform that role to perfection. A basic example, would be an assault marine squad left behind to defend a hill. Every member of that unit would prefer to be at the front in an agressive capacity, but their orders are otherwise, and they obey. A more extreme example is that of a tech-marine. From day one each battle brother is taught that they are the ones responsible for technology, and as was pointed out before, this has religious implications associated with it. Yes they are super soldiers, but that doesn't mean they will break from tradition because it would be useful to know something that they've already been told they will not be taught.

There are a handful of chapters who are more tech savvy than others, and in that case it might not be unheard of for each marine to have some knowledge, but for most codex chapters this would not be the case. There is an interesting example in Purging of Kadallius in which some Ravenwing marines try and effect a field repair to their Land Speeder, but only end up making matters worse. It is discovered later that they had severely offended the machine spirit in their misguided attempt at repair. There is a mystical aspect to technology in 40k. We like to relate it to things we know, like AI programs, but this really isn't the case. 40k is a futuristic fantasy setting more than a science fiction setting. It's hard to compare apples to apples in that situation.

I hope this didn't come off as a rant, as that was not it's intention. I just feel these are somethings many people overlook when dealing with 40k. Tech-marines are priests who focus on the rituals associated with machines. Many tech marines understand little beyond the rote memorization they are taught. It isn't until they are elevated to higher position before they truly get an inkling into how technology actually "works". I would say beyond cleaning their equipment, and donning their wargear, a basic marine is, at best, lost when it comes to technology.

I would not be suprised if space marines should have tech-use. Space Marines are required to do most repairs on their own power armor and equipment themselves. Although I think getting 80% of your power armor melted by a plasma cannon would have to be taken care of by the techmarines and artificers. Space marines are also knowledgable in at least basic repair for their vehicles. They're use of auspexes and operation of advanced equipment such as spacecraft and thunderhawks.

Whether these actions falls under tech-use, or if tech-use is about the more advanced/fantastic technology and ability to decern and use technologies completely alien to the user is probably what needs to be clarified.

I wouldn't go as far as saying that they repair their armour and weapons beyond basic maintenance, application of armour repair, and clearing stoppages. Certainly that should then indicate that they can operate a fusion reactor or hack data out of computers or re-wire a broken air conditioning unit.

herichimo said:

That pretty much describes Trade: Technomat, it's the difference between knowing how to clean / strip a gun and (theoretically at least) being able to make one.

Remember also that Marine Chapters are highly individual in their recruiting and often training regimes. I don't think it is unlikely that a Chapter from a particularly savage or feral world would forsake technical training and allow the Iron Shamans (Tech Priests) to mess around with that kind of thing.

Equally some Chapters might simply think that a Space Marines role as Angels of Death is very focused on getting to grips with the enemy and destroying them as quickly as possible. Simply put tech use is a distraction to these Chapters. I would imagine Chapters like the Flesh Tearers ticking this box.

Therefore I don't think it should be taken as a given that a marine has tech use.

- Blow-up stuff means demolitions

- Putting Gas on a vehicle may meen Piloting/Drive

- No skill roll should be required for normal operation of a weapon ( Fast Reload is a talent for situations in combat )

- Anything above and beyond normal procedures should be governed by a tech-guy, techmarine, serf, whatever...

WH40K is about ignorance and secrets beeing kept by everyone from everyone. Marines are a perfect example, they are made from an organ that noone can make, only grow inside another marine, the machines that brainwashed them are ancient things noone can make anymore, the weapons are the same they were back in WH30K. Innovation is suspitious, free-thinking is a nono at best and called Chaos the rest of the time.

OFC a gaming group can make a less dark and ignorant galaxy where Space Marines aren't Brainwashed, hormone junkies with big weapons that fight to "rid" the galaxy of everything not human and/or not endorsed by the Imperial machine...

Isidro

RL example of using and knowing how it works...

- All of us posting on these forums use elecricity constantly in our various everyday use machines... How many know physics.

- I'm reading what I write on a monitor that I have no real knowledge of it's workings... or the keyboard or the computer.

- We all hear about and use Internet in leisure and work related activities... How many of us know how to do anything beyong the operations allowed by the Windows Menus ? I know I don't.

Isidro

Thanks you all for the replies, its much appreciated.

After reading what I wrote in my op I realised i didn't allaborate the reason i questioned tech-use.

What happened was one of the pc wanted to sneak through an enemy checkpoint and into a city to basically open a sewer hatch and let the rest on the team enter without the enemy knowing so. They'd found a truck and two accompanying soldiers to drive it so one of the marines could hide in the back but couldn't get it started. One of the Marines (a Salamander) took a look at the engine and attempted to fix the problem. Normally our techmarine would have done it but the player is on holiday atm.

I should have pointed out the situation before hand and really though about the reasoning more behind why marines would have tech use instead of the poorly argued fusion reactor. Maybe a hydra flak defence grid would have sounded better.

Maverick91 said:

In this instance I might allow a Drive (Ground Vehicles) test at a -20 or -30 to try to get the engine running. Of course this type of repair would be frowned upon by the Mechanicus.

I like to look at skills other than Tech Use for these types of tests. Tech Use is too much of a catch all for my taste.

Maverick91 said:

I would sit firmly in the camp of 'being elite infantry doesn't mean you are trained to fix a truck engine'. Especially given the rites and complexities of 40k technology. The example someone gave in canon of Raven Guard not knowing how to fix a landspeeder is particularly appropriate.

And I would also definately not allow a default to 'drive vehicle' in the setting. In today's world 95% of people can't change the clutch of their own car. In a world where technology is a black art and technological items are essentially black boxes which people can use in a ritualised manner but have no idea about the science and basic working concepts behind, I can see the situation as only being worse.

Consider it comparable to being able to use a computer, but having no idea what was inside the case, not knowing what a CPU or RAM were, never having dared open the case because you might upset the PC, and basically treating it like a religious relic. Or simply perhaps taking a car back to the middle ages and teaching someone to drive it, then asking them to fix it.

I don't think we want to end up with a situation where a PCs only method of interacting with the world is to punch things until they die.

It behoves us to keep as many options open as possible.

AluminiumWolf said:

I agree, but if the PC's spend all their XP on combat skills/talents then that is going to happen. DW Marines has more options that any other "class" from Rt or DH. IF they want they will know a lot of lores and will have a lot of skills.

GM + players need to be on the same page.

Isidro

I think people are going to be sufficiently focused on making sure that their Marine kicks ass that we need to be looking at giving them the other options for free, to encourage uptake.

Possibly have special Non-combat XP that can't be spent on inproving your Marines fighting ability.

AluminiumWolf said:

It is an option: Rank 1 800xp!

If a player elects merely to have his character capable of interacting with the world because they elected to spend XP only on combat skills, then it was there choice. If the party suffer during a mission or even fail because every player elected to spend XP on combat skills instead of other blatantly useful skills, then it was their choice to have done so.

Giving players stuff for free so they can spend more XP on combat abilities is not keeping options open. It's doing the reverse. It's reducing options.

In 40k Technology is arcane and far from intuitive. Many Chapters recruit from worlds where a spear is the cutting edge of technology. Tech-Use has no place as a default 'skilled' skill to my mind.

AluminiumWolf said:

???!!!!

If your players insist on spending every XP on combat and need XP to be ring-fenced in order to prevent them spending every last drop on combat skills, then that's a player issue, not a game design issue. If your players do not recognise that they will need some non-combat skills in order to complete objectives then -again- that's their problem. And if they screw up because of it and fail to correct it then -again- it's their own problem, not the rules.

One could after all equally argue that it's in some way unfair that a character who spent every XP on improving his trade: knitting skills gets killed more easily in combat than other PCs.

Siranui said:

Well, like I say, in the Space Wolf books Ragnar goes from primitive viking to techno-viking almost overnight as a result of the use of learning machines, so there is that. Five minutes under the lamp and they all know Kung Fu.

--

I don't think it is ideal to be forcing people to choose between making their Marine better at killing or other stuff, because I think it is a fair bet that they will want to spend the cash on combat skills, and do anything else grudgingly. By dedicating resources that can only be used on Options other than punching stuff until it dies it not only ensures that they actually have some options but also means they are not losing combat ability by taking them up, which I think is going to be important to a lot of players.

AluminiumWolf said:

I don't know what kind of players your groups contains, but role playing is about far more than killing or blowing stuff up. If your players see the choice between combat and non-combat advances as being forced, I'd get as far as way from that group as my legs could carry me.

So he spent the XP on it and the GM fluffed the learning time for campaign continuity. Good for Ragnar.

But by the same logic, why should a player give up -say- shooting ability to be better in melee? So they should all get mighty shot for free?

Players are free to choose strengths and weaknesses. It's not 'forcing them' to choose. Choice is a good thing. Options are a good thing. Taking away options and just making players better at killing stuff results in carbon copy characters. That's why a 1E D&D fighter was as dull as ditchwater.

If players seriously think that buying 'Hatred: Tau' is more important than any one of them having any technical acumen, then I'm not going to loose much sleep or start handing out freebies, either. Having a kill-team where everyone invests in non-combat specialities is cool and adds dimension. Giving everyone stuff for free takes that away. How cool would the A-Team be if everyone could fix stuff, everyone could fly 'planes, everyone could fast-talk, and everyone could come up with plans that came together? It's the non-combat skills that help to differentiate characters and give them a niche.

"Where's Brother Bob: We need him to help us set up the demo charges?" "Nah, we don't need him. We can all do it."

I'm pretty sure that if you add up every single combat stat and talent advance it will come to a total that is lower than the total XP given to characters in their 8 ranks. Which means that some degree of non-combat skill training is basically required, and it's not 'costing' even the most hardened munchkin anything at all. They aren't loosing anything by spending it, because they will eventually run out of stuff to buy.

GMs don't set combat difficulty on some fixed scale, but in relation to the capabilities of the team. Players who feel that they 'can't' spend XP on non-combat skills because it makes them weak, or even that spending everything on combat skills gives them some kind of edge over the GM really aren't engaging their cortex. In fact the opposite is kinda true: If every PC buys a sizeable and equal amount of XP on utility skills then the entire group is stronger for it, not weaker.

Siranui said:

To say nothing of the fact that given 40,000 years of technological advancement (true the last 10,000 have been limited) and a million different worlds and thus possibley billions of differnt cultures and 'engineering traditions' it is not a stretch to say that your average person in the 41st millenium (and I include space marines when I say average in this case) would not have the faintest idea of how any given example of a 'truck' would work.

AluminiumWolf said:

Having a the PC's fail a few missions because they don't have any non combat skills or talents will change this pretty sharpish. Deathwatch missions don't need to be all hack and slash. Deathwatch missions can also include investigation and you know, talking with people.....